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Richards

When Feminism and Gay Rights Butt Heads

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Can you clarify, I am not sure what you are asking.



Sorry, let me clarify.

basically some people who are on the pro-choice side of abortion do feel that if a woman does decide to keep a baby she then does have some obligations even though it is her body. An example of this happened in Winnepeg about 5-10 years ago. In Canada at the time if a woman was basically a career welfare consumer then it was in her best interest to squeeze out as many pups as she could as the additional welfare support per extra child exceeded the incremental cost of having that child. So if you were more interested in having extra disposable income than you were in any ethical obligations to a child then you would breed beyond your means. Anyway there was an aboriginal woman who was an addict and as a result of her addiction her first 4 or 5 kids had severe birth defects since she used drugs from conception to delivery. Child services got a court order (upon her latest pregnancy) to have her committed to a drug treatment center during her pregnancy so the next child might have a chance of being born healthy. Feminist groups responded to this with outrage saying it was an example of a patriarchal society trying to control womens bodies and found themselves embattled in a huge debate about the rights of the fetus vs the rights of the mother.

Anyway my question to you was based on this. If a woman chooses to keep a baby does she bear any moral responsibility to not do things to her body that would (negatively) affect the childs well being?
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Anyway my question to you was based on this. If a woman chooses to keep a baby does she bear any moral responsibility to not do things to her body that would (negatively) affect the childs well being?



Yes. In a perfect world a mother would care about the well being of their child (above their own well being) starting at conception. However, this is not a perfect world.

Do people deserve to have their rights even if they abuse them (and consequently abuse the rights of others)?
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Yes. In a perfect world a mother would care about the well being of their child (above their own well being) starting at conception.



Now should that be enforced by law or merely encouraged?
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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The research involves using hormones to change the orientation of sexually active rams that are known to be homosexual. If the issue were to ever come up with humans, I hope it would be addressed the same way, i.e. adults would be allowed to change their own orientation as they see fit. I'd really rather not walk down the path of "designer babies", debilitating defects aside.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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The research involves using hormones to change the orientation of sexually active rams that are known to be homosexual. If the issue were to ever come up with humans, I hope it would be addressed the same way, i.e. adults would be allowed to change their own orientation as they see fit. I'd really rather not walk down the path of "designer babies", debilitating defects aside.



I agree. My personal preference would be that as a society we do not design custom babies.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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What do you think of parents manipulating their kids' hormornes not so they become straight but so they're guaranteed to become gay?

Why would anyone in their right mind intentionally lessen the chance of the continuation of a family line?

Extenuating curcumstances aside, it would be like having your children fixed so that they couldn't reproduce.

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Yes. In a perfect world a mother would care about the well being of their child (above their own well being) starting at conception.



Now should that be enforced by law or merely encouraged?



No, that should not be enforced by law. However, the right for a person to have a child should have somes restriction (similar to adoption).
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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No, that should not be enforced by law.



Can I take that to mean that the woman in my example should not have been held in a drug treatment facility? I am curious because this was a huge issue up here in canada at the time.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Anyway my question to you was based on this. If a woman chooses to keep a baby does she bear any moral responsibility to not do things to her body that would (negatively) affect the childs well being?

In reality, yes. From the feminist point of veiw, it isn't a human being until after it is sqalling in the doctor's arms.

Why take any extra pains that stand in the way of convieneince, in order to increase the chance of a healthy child.[:/]

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>Why would anyone in their right mind intentionally lessen the
>chance of the continuation of a family line?

It used to be true that gay women had no chance to reproduce at all. That's no longer true. A family of gay women could both reproduce (artificial insemination) and ensure that their children were the same orientation they were.

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No, that should not be enforced by law.


Can I take that to mean that the woman in my example should not have been held in a drug treatment facility? I am curious because this was a huge issue up here in canada at the time.



No. You can take that to mean that laws should not be created and enforced that protect the well being of an unborn child over the well being of the mother. Laws should be created and enforced that prevent people from conceiving (mandatory birth control). Stop the problem at the source.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Abortion on demand coupled with sex forecasting, for example, has resulted in a virtual gendercide amongst some cultural communities, but feminists will not back down from their monolithic political stance.

How then can those who support a woman's unconditional right to kill her own healthy female fetus logically balk at a benign intervention that will optimize the chances of a living child having the sexual orientation preferred by the parents?



...out comes the author's misunderstanding of the pro-choice viewpoint.

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***Abortion on demand coupled with sex forecasting, for example, has resulted in a virtual gendercide amongst some cultural communities, but feminists will not back down from their monolithic political stance.

How then can those who support a woman's unconditional right to kill her own healthy female fetus logically balk at a benign intervention that will optimize the chances of a living child having the sexual orientation preferred by the parents?



...out comes the author's misunderstanding of the pro-choice viewpoint.



Can you please elaborate/clarify.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Laws should be created and enforced that prevent people from conceiving (mandatory birth control). Stop the problem at the source.



Humungous can of worms.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Laws should be created and enforced that prevent people from conceiving (mandatory birth control). Stop the problem at the source.



Humungous can of worms.



So is allowing people to have children who are incapable of supporting children.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Humungous can of worms.



So is allowing people to have children who are incapable of supporting children.



Oh don't get me wrong. I do see your point, I just don't know if I would have the balls to openly promote such an idea.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Easiest way to avoid either conflict is to just hang out with interns and avoid the whole 'sex' thing. At least based on one definition.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Easiest way to avoid either conflict is to just hang out with interns and avoid the whole 'sex' thing. At least based on one definition.



:D:D Give that man a cigar.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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Easiest way to avoid either conflict is to just hang out with interns and avoid the whole 'sex' thing. At least based on one definition.



:D:D Give that man a cigar.



"Thar she blows, captain"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I am reluctant to touch this one with a 10 foot pole as anyone who sides with the feminists will be accused of being a homophobe, and anyone who sides with the gay rights groups will be accused of wanting to control womens bodies (particularly here in SC where everything is polarized).



It doesn't have to be that black and white. It wouldn't be impossible to support both the gay and pro-choice approach. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you have to encourage abortion, does it? Good pro-choice groups make an effort to present alternatives to abortion.

I don't think that the hormone therapy sounds like a good idea and I'd be interested in making sure that the possible ill effects were clear to the mother and that the decision was made given all the information, but I could ultimately support the decision being the mother's, I guess.

I hate the idea, but it's not an impossible situation for pro-choice homosexuals.

Edit to add: I was just thinking about the ultra right religous types who think that any unborn child is a gift from God and should not be interferred with in any way. Given the opportunity to make sure they don't have gay children might present the same dilemma to them. B|

Of course, they think that homosexuality all 100% choice so they don't need hormone treatments, do they?
Owned by Remi #?

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ethical occluded front



Heh. I don't think so, at least from the perspective of the original post. I think there are many interesting angles.

It might benefit homosexuals in general in the long run. Once you prove that hormone therapy makes fewer people gay then you pretty much have to accept that homosexuality is inate and not a choice. Once you've accepted the trait as inate you start losing your excuses to deny people their rights because their "lifestyle" is a "choice"

Not everyone would choose the therapy.
Owned by Remi #?

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It doesn't have to be that black and white. It wouldn't be impossible to support both the gay and pro-choice approach. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you have to encourage abortion, does it? Good pro-choice groups make an effort to present alternatives to abortion.



I agree with you but all too often people will try to polarize these issues.

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I don't think that the hormone therapy sounds like a good idea and I'd be interested in making sure that the possible ill effects were clear to the mother and that the decision was made given all the information, but I could ultimately support the decision being the mother's, I guess.

I hate the idea, but it's not an impossible situation for pro-choice homosexuals.

Edit to add: I was just thinking about the ultra right religous types who think that any unborn child is a gift from God and should not be interferred with in any way. Given the opportunity to make sure they don't have gay children might present the same dilemma to them. B|

Of course, they think that homosexuality all 100% choice so they don't need hormone treatments, do they?



It is going to be fought at extremes unfortunately. I do not like this idea one bit but I concede that it is ultimately not my call. You have posed an interesting question with respect to religious groups though. I do not know what to say about that but I am interested in some of the other views on that.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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