rehmwa 2 #176 January 22, 2007 QuoteI'm sure that if religious zealots would cease and desist trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools and encoded in legal statutes, the rest of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them. 1 - I agree that would be terrific. 2 - I disagree that they'd be ignored by a certain segment. Nor that they could do anything short of completely giving up their beliefs would result in them being ignored. And, if they completely gave up their beliefs, some would still harass them for "once having" beliefs that aren't in line. Don't believe me? Heck, Clinton got a blowjob and lied under oath. He admitted it and was penalized for it by the BAR association. But you guys can't stop bringing it up. again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #177 January 22, 2007 >Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme >actions of a few to justify their treatment of Christianity, as a whole. Very true. Goes for atheists, agnostics and muslims as well. Most christians don't feel the need to go door to door and convert people, nor do they feel the need to pass laws restricting freedoms in the name of their religion. Just as most atheists don't care what other people believe and most muslims do not believe in violence as a way to solve problems. But those sorts of people, as they say, don't sell any newspapers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #178 January 22, 2007 Quote Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #179 January 22, 2007 It's a good point. I can't think of a single extremist stereotype that I can apply correctly to every single individual of that group. Except for CrW-dawgs, of course. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #180 January 22, 2007 QuoteIt's a good point. I can't think of a single extremist stereotype that I can apply correctly to every single individual of that group. Except for CrW-dawgs, of course. Well, obviously CrW-Dawgs. And aqueducts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #181 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteUnfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole. Quite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #182 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. No fair, 2000 attack posts in each of 4 threads from the same 3 people will totally skew the conclusions of your analysis. Let alone Hairyjuan-bot ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #183 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteUnfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole. Quite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. I guess you weren't here right after 9/11 or in the run up to the Iraq invasion. The phrase "glass parking lot" comes to mind.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #184 January 22, 2007 >but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #185 January 22, 2007 Quote>but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of calling a spade a spade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #186 January 22, 2007 >So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of >calling a spade a spade. Are you perhaps answering someone else? Or are you answering what you wish I had posted instead of what I actually did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #187 January 22, 2007 "No, I don't think the Germans of 21st century should be punished for Nazis, etc. However, if the Germans do not learn from that (and USA doesn't learn from it's own ilglorious past) we deserve what we get." So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and can you justify the concept of original sin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #188 January 22, 2007 Quote So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Theologians ask "What is this the point of the passage?" Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers? I don't think so. As I have said many times ... look at the context, include the next verse. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. God's wrath would be visited to the third and fourth generations for those who hate God, His mercy would be visited on thousands of generations for those who love God. Notice the contrast. The point of this passage is not to communicate the number of generations who will be blessed versus the number who will be cursed, but rather that God's mercy far exceeds His wrath. Ironically you have used these passages to stress the severity of God's wrath over His mercy! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #189 January 22, 2007 Sorry I took so long to answer, I was just playing pool with my christian housemate. Now where were we - oh yeah, how I hate all religious people. QuoteYour post is just a repeat of Nightengale's but it has less class as you opened it with an insult to the religious fundies before restating her point. (I'm agnostic, BTW) So could you tell me where the ability to apply reason fits in with believing the world is 6,000 years old, the grand canyon was carved by a global flood, people in the days of yore lived 'til they were 900 because they were genetically pure and that a big hand in the sky is about to come down and take all the believers away some time in the next decade or so? (By the way I didn't know you were agnostic, I guess I must have missed the first 500 times you posted it) QuoteBut, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I really doubt they have any kind of beneficient intentions. Just another axe to grind. Perhaps if the atheistic fundies could apply a modicum of "higher reasoning, and just join their 'normal' atheist friends in living their own lives and ignoring the religious fundies (their counterparts) - then they would so perfectly reflect the other organized religions so well. So where would we be if everyone just ignored the Fundamentalist Literalists and no one argued against them? The teaching of basic biology would be outlawed in many of your States and god knows you guys are bad enough at it already (BTW, did you know the Discovery Institute have started distributing their delusional 'theories' to British state schools?), huge numbers of women would have access to neither birth control or safe abortions, I'd hate to think how much more difficult it would be to be gay, those who didn't join in compulsory prayer sessions at schools, government buildings courthouses etc. would likely face severe repurcussions..... I could go on. Thing is, if we all just ignore the hate that these people are spouting they will gain ground and gain power. It does take people to actually stand up and confront them on just how stupid they're being for progress to be made.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #190 January 22, 2007 Quote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #191 January 22, 2007 QuoteI think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. that's my only point to you two ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #192 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Well shit - with all my posts here as a proponent of gay marriage that must mean..... This may lead to a major change in my lifestyle!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #193 January 23, 2007 QuoteSo how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Now I admit that little commentary didn’t clear it up completely, so let me add other insights. First notice the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” If this verse was to be literal then God would show mercy for thousands of generations for those who loved God. That means all you’d have to do was find a grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, great great great grandfather, and so on, that loved God and you’d be exempt from the curse. The odds are pretty good that out of 1000 generations, some dude in your family loved God. More importantly than this supposition is the empirical evidence from the Bible itself that this verse is NOT literal. King Hezekiah was Judah’s most righteous king, but his son, Manasseh, was evil. Manasseh’s grandson, Josiah, was a righteous king who brought revival. . What happened to God’s promise of mercies to show Hezekiah’s children for a thousand generation? What happened to Manasseh’ curse to the 3rd & 4th generation? The fact they do not exist ought to give us a clue that the passage is not about generational curses, but about God’s unbounding mercies. Another insight is found from JC. When healing a blind man he was asked who sinned to cause this man to be born blind, him or his parents? JC’s reply it was not related to anyone’s sin, but rather to demonstrate the glory of God. (John 9:1-3) Also Ezekiel 18 gives further clarity. Read it when you have time. For those who remain unconvinced, consider Christ. He bore our curses by being made a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Gal 3:13). If any such thing as a generational curse does exist, that curse over our life would have been broken by Christ. In Christ we receive the mercy of God, not a curse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #194 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen's the last time you had an Athiest/Agnostic person knock on your door or come up to you on the street to talk to you about evolution and give you a pamplet. Doesn't happen. and you would be wrong on that assumption every faith has activist elements (usually a very small, and non-representative element) - including the faith of atheism I realize there are outspoken athiests, I was just asking when was the last time you specifically, or anyone else on here, has had an athiest knock on their door or hand them a pamplet, pretty much everyone has had a religous person do that, not many has had an athiest do that. And I'm not talking specifically about christianity, any religion that does this works fine. I work with a lot of muslims and while I would probably get in trouble for speaking about athiesm, they are free to try to convert me at any time, and they do try.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #195 January 23, 2007 Well you said you would not punish current Germans for the crimes of the Nazis, this is about 3 generations away yet the bible clearly states that punishing generations more than this is ok. Furthermore the entire concept of original sin implies that the sins of the fathers are inherited by the children, further highlighting your massive contradiction. Btw it is you who who have added your own context to suit your needs. The actualt text doesnt say generation it says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. you added the word generations to make it suit your these. ( i think what the bible meant to say was...)Quite frankly i am amzed you can ask "Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers?" when its written exactly that clear as day. Do you think every single word in the bible is a metaphor? When are you going to let go? the fact that god offers mercy for those that love him and keep his commandments - which is not anyone that breaks the sabbath for example- is irrelvant to the proven fact that he does visit the sins of the fathers onto their children. Lets note also hes offering mercy implying we are guilty before weve even committe the crime. A ridiculous form of justice if ever there was one. Thankfully people fdont follow the bible, it will be an ugly world if we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #196 January 23, 2007 QuoteI'm sure that if religious zealots would cease and desist trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools and encoded in legal statutes, the rest of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them. agreed. i begrudge NO ONE practice of their religion.. just dont annoy me with your silly beliefs and i wont annoy you with mine. That is a basic respect that the "converting' religions cannot abide.. now where is my frisbee??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #197 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. you might want to look at the number of posts started by Christians... they bring it on themselves.. particularly when they cry 'persecution' to get attention.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #198 January 23, 2007 Sorry i didnt c your second post. "the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” Did you read it? First off its not just those that hate god but their children , also their children and their children again. Now what is the difference between this and saying we shall not just punish the Nazis but their children, their grandchildren and their great grandchildren. Now gods love is clearly stated as conditional on those that keep his commandments, so you are wrong when you say god reserves his wrath for those that hate him, its clear its there for those that dont keep his commandments. this is evidenced by the fact that he gives out the death penalty for simple infringmenets like breaking the sabbath. You talk about context, but you ignore the context of the passage. This passage is one of the ten commandments and god is stressing how important it is not to worship another god (screwing up?) and what he will do if you do; not just punish you, but punish your children, your grandchildren, and your great grand children. God even tells us his motivation for this , its because he is jealous. All your other examples merely show that god doesnt act consistently in the bible. Human beings dont always act consistently and since the bible was written by (most likely) several different human beings thats exactly what we would expect. A fallible god character created by fallible men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #199 January 23, 2007 Obviously you did not read my post with any intenet to learn. Like most fundamentalist you think you have your verse that proves God's wrath is unreasonable. I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. I used empirical evidence from the Kings of Judah to show that it could not be taken literally. I gave you the reference to Ezekiel 18 that is biblical commentary about generational curses. I also gave you JC's commentary about "generational curses". You obviously don't want to see. BTW I did not add {generations} The NIV translators added it. I merely quoted the text from their translation. Why did they add it? Because the same verse is quoted in Deut 5, and all the reliable texts have the word generation there. NIV and KJV have generations in each of their translations. But yes, NIV shows the word was omitted in translation of the EX text, but consistentancy with a parrallel text shows it should be in there. Of course KJV don't recognize the fact the same verse in a parralel passage has the word. Now you must be one of King James Only Atheists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #200 January 23, 2007 Quote I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. Quote I just don't see how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath when the majority of the worlds past population (Native Americans, Aztecs, Incans, Mayan, African tribes, Egyptians, Vikings, Ancient Greeks, Chineese, Japanese, and many other past civilizations) along with the majority of the people on earth today are going to hell. Some mercy if you ask meWe die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 8 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rehmwa 2 #179 January 22, 2007 It's a good point. I can't think of a single extremist stereotype that I can apply correctly to every single individual of that group. Except for CrW-dawgs, of course. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #180 January 22, 2007 QuoteIt's a good point. I can't think of a single extremist stereotype that I can apply correctly to every single individual of that group. Except for CrW-dawgs, of course. Well, obviously CrW-Dawgs. And aqueducts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #181 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteUnfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole. Quite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #182 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. No fair, 2000 attack posts in each of 4 threads from the same 3 people will totally skew the conclusions of your analysis. Let alone Hairyjuan-bot ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #183 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteUnfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole. Quite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. I guess you weren't here right after 9/11 or in the run up to the Iraq invasion. The phrase "glass parking lot" comes to mind.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #184 January 22, 2007 >but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #185 January 22, 2007 Quote>but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of calling a spade a spade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #186 January 22, 2007 >So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of >calling a spade a spade. Are you perhaps answering someone else? Or are you answering what you wish I had posted instead of what I actually did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #187 January 22, 2007 "No, I don't think the Germans of 21st century should be punished for Nazis, etc. However, if the Germans do not learn from that (and USA doesn't learn from it's own ilglorious past) we deserve what we get." So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and can you justify the concept of original sin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #188 January 22, 2007 Quote So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Theologians ask "What is this the point of the passage?" Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers? I don't think so. As I have said many times ... look at the context, include the next verse. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. God's wrath would be visited to the third and fourth generations for those who hate God, His mercy would be visited on thousands of generations for those who love God. Notice the contrast. The point of this passage is not to communicate the number of generations who will be blessed versus the number who will be cursed, but rather that God's mercy far exceeds His wrath. Ironically you have used these passages to stress the severity of God's wrath over His mercy! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #189 January 22, 2007 Sorry I took so long to answer, I was just playing pool with my christian housemate. Now where were we - oh yeah, how I hate all religious people. QuoteYour post is just a repeat of Nightengale's but it has less class as you opened it with an insult to the religious fundies before restating her point. (I'm agnostic, BTW) So could you tell me where the ability to apply reason fits in with believing the world is 6,000 years old, the grand canyon was carved by a global flood, people in the days of yore lived 'til they were 900 because they were genetically pure and that a big hand in the sky is about to come down and take all the believers away some time in the next decade or so? (By the way I didn't know you were agnostic, I guess I must have missed the first 500 times you posted it) QuoteBut, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I really doubt they have any kind of beneficient intentions. Just another axe to grind. Perhaps if the atheistic fundies could apply a modicum of "higher reasoning, and just join their 'normal' atheist friends in living their own lives and ignoring the religious fundies (their counterparts) - then they would so perfectly reflect the other organized religions so well. So where would we be if everyone just ignored the Fundamentalist Literalists and no one argued against them? The teaching of basic biology would be outlawed in many of your States and god knows you guys are bad enough at it already (BTW, did you know the Discovery Institute have started distributing their delusional 'theories' to British state schools?), huge numbers of women would have access to neither birth control or safe abortions, I'd hate to think how much more difficult it would be to be gay, those who didn't join in compulsory prayer sessions at schools, government buildings courthouses etc. would likely face severe repurcussions..... I could go on. Thing is, if we all just ignore the hate that these people are spouting they will gain ground and gain power. It does take people to actually stand up and confront them on just how stupid they're being for progress to be made.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #190 January 22, 2007 Quote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #191 January 22, 2007 QuoteI think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. that's my only point to you two ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #192 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Well shit - with all my posts here as a proponent of gay marriage that must mean..... This may lead to a major change in my lifestyle!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #193 January 23, 2007 QuoteSo how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Now I admit that little commentary didn’t clear it up completely, so let me add other insights. First notice the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” If this verse was to be literal then God would show mercy for thousands of generations for those who loved God. That means all you’d have to do was find a grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, great great great grandfather, and so on, that loved God and you’d be exempt from the curse. The odds are pretty good that out of 1000 generations, some dude in your family loved God. More importantly than this supposition is the empirical evidence from the Bible itself that this verse is NOT literal. King Hezekiah was Judah’s most righteous king, but his son, Manasseh, was evil. Manasseh’s grandson, Josiah, was a righteous king who brought revival. . What happened to God’s promise of mercies to show Hezekiah’s children for a thousand generation? What happened to Manasseh’ curse to the 3rd & 4th generation? The fact they do not exist ought to give us a clue that the passage is not about generational curses, but about God’s unbounding mercies. Another insight is found from JC. When healing a blind man he was asked who sinned to cause this man to be born blind, him or his parents? JC’s reply it was not related to anyone’s sin, but rather to demonstrate the glory of God. (John 9:1-3) Also Ezekiel 18 gives further clarity. Read it when you have time. For those who remain unconvinced, consider Christ. He bore our curses by being made a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Gal 3:13). If any such thing as a generational curse does exist, that curse over our life would have been broken by Christ. In Christ we receive the mercy of God, not a curse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #194 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen's the last time you had an Athiest/Agnostic person knock on your door or come up to you on the street to talk to you about evolution and give you a pamplet. Doesn't happen. and you would be wrong on that assumption every faith has activist elements (usually a very small, and non-representative element) - including the faith of atheism I realize there are outspoken athiests, I was just asking when was the last time you specifically, or anyone else on here, has had an athiest knock on their door or hand them a pamplet, pretty much everyone has had a religous person do that, not many has had an athiest do that. And I'm not talking specifically about christianity, any religion that does this works fine. I work with a lot of muslims and while I would probably get in trouble for speaking about athiesm, they are free to try to convert me at any time, and they do try.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #195 January 23, 2007 Well you said you would not punish current Germans for the crimes of the Nazis, this is about 3 generations away yet the bible clearly states that punishing generations more than this is ok. Furthermore the entire concept of original sin implies that the sins of the fathers are inherited by the children, further highlighting your massive contradiction. Btw it is you who who have added your own context to suit your needs. The actualt text doesnt say generation it says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. you added the word generations to make it suit your these. ( i think what the bible meant to say was...)Quite frankly i am amzed you can ask "Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers?" when its written exactly that clear as day. Do you think every single word in the bible is a metaphor? When are you going to let go? the fact that god offers mercy for those that love him and keep his commandments - which is not anyone that breaks the sabbath for example- is irrelvant to the proven fact that he does visit the sins of the fathers onto their children. Lets note also hes offering mercy implying we are guilty before weve even committe the crime. A ridiculous form of justice if ever there was one. Thankfully people fdont follow the bible, it will be an ugly world if we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #196 January 23, 2007 QuoteI'm sure that if religious zealots would cease and desist trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools and encoded in legal statutes, the rest of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them. agreed. i begrudge NO ONE practice of their religion.. just dont annoy me with your silly beliefs and i wont annoy you with mine. That is a basic respect that the "converting' religions cannot abide.. now where is my frisbee??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #197 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. you might want to look at the number of posts started by Christians... they bring it on themselves.. particularly when they cry 'persecution' to get attention.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #198 January 23, 2007 Sorry i didnt c your second post. "the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” Did you read it? First off its not just those that hate god but their children , also their children and their children again. Now what is the difference between this and saying we shall not just punish the Nazis but their children, their grandchildren and their great grandchildren. Now gods love is clearly stated as conditional on those that keep his commandments, so you are wrong when you say god reserves his wrath for those that hate him, its clear its there for those that dont keep his commandments. this is evidenced by the fact that he gives out the death penalty for simple infringmenets like breaking the sabbath. You talk about context, but you ignore the context of the passage. This passage is one of the ten commandments and god is stressing how important it is not to worship another god (screwing up?) and what he will do if you do; not just punish you, but punish your children, your grandchildren, and your great grand children. God even tells us his motivation for this , its because he is jealous. All your other examples merely show that god doesnt act consistently in the bible. Human beings dont always act consistently and since the bible was written by (most likely) several different human beings thats exactly what we would expect. A fallible god character created by fallible men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #199 January 23, 2007 Obviously you did not read my post with any intenet to learn. Like most fundamentalist you think you have your verse that proves God's wrath is unreasonable. I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. I used empirical evidence from the Kings of Judah to show that it could not be taken literally. I gave you the reference to Ezekiel 18 that is biblical commentary about generational curses. I also gave you JC's commentary about "generational curses". You obviously don't want to see. BTW I did not add {generations} The NIV translators added it. I merely quoted the text from their translation. Why did they add it? Because the same verse is quoted in Deut 5, and all the reliable texts have the word generation there. NIV and KJV have generations in each of their translations. But yes, NIV shows the word was omitted in translation of the EX text, but consistentancy with a parrallel text shows it should be in there. Of course KJV don't recognize the fact the same verse in a parralel passage has the word. Now you must be one of King James Only Atheists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #200 January 23, 2007 Quote I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. Quote I just don't see how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath when the majority of the worlds past population (Native Americans, Aztecs, Incans, Mayan, African tribes, Egyptians, Vikings, Ancient Greeks, Chineese, Japanese, and many other past civilizations) along with the majority of the people on earth today are going to hell. Some mercy if you ask meWe die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 8 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rehmwa 2 #182 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. No fair, 2000 attack posts in each of 4 threads from the same 3 people will totally skew the conclusions of your analysis. Let alone Hairyjuan-bot ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #183 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteUnfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of Islam, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gays, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of liberals, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of students, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of gun owners, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of college professors, as a whole. Unfortunately, a number of people on this forum use the extreme actions of a few to justify their treatment of swoopers, as a whole. Quite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. I guess you weren't here right after 9/11 or in the run up to the Iraq invasion. The phrase "glass parking lot" comes to mind.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #184 January 22, 2007 >but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #185 January 22, 2007 Quote>but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of calling a spade a spade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #186 January 22, 2007 >So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of >calling a spade a spade. Are you perhaps answering someone else? Or are you answering what you wish I had posted instead of what I actually did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #187 January 22, 2007 "No, I don't think the Germans of 21st century should be punished for Nazis, etc. However, if the Germans do not learn from that (and USA doesn't learn from it's own ilglorious past) we deserve what we get." So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and can you justify the concept of original sin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #188 January 22, 2007 Quote So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Theologians ask "What is this the point of the passage?" Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers? I don't think so. As I have said many times ... look at the context, include the next verse. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. God's wrath would be visited to the third and fourth generations for those who hate God, His mercy would be visited on thousands of generations for those who love God. Notice the contrast. The point of this passage is not to communicate the number of generations who will be blessed versus the number who will be cursed, but rather that God's mercy far exceeds His wrath. Ironically you have used these passages to stress the severity of God's wrath over His mercy! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #189 January 22, 2007 Sorry I took so long to answer, I was just playing pool with my christian housemate. Now where were we - oh yeah, how I hate all religious people. QuoteYour post is just a repeat of Nightengale's but it has less class as you opened it with an insult to the religious fundies before restating her point. (I'm agnostic, BTW) So could you tell me where the ability to apply reason fits in with believing the world is 6,000 years old, the grand canyon was carved by a global flood, people in the days of yore lived 'til they were 900 because they were genetically pure and that a big hand in the sky is about to come down and take all the believers away some time in the next decade or so? (By the way I didn't know you were agnostic, I guess I must have missed the first 500 times you posted it) QuoteBut, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I really doubt they have any kind of beneficient intentions. Just another axe to grind. Perhaps if the atheistic fundies could apply a modicum of "higher reasoning, and just join their 'normal' atheist friends in living their own lives and ignoring the religious fundies (their counterparts) - then they would so perfectly reflect the other organized religions so well. So where would we be if everyone just ignored the Fundamentalist Literalists and no one argued against them? The teaching of basic biology would be outlawed in many of your States and god knows you guys are bad enough at it already (BTW, did you know the Discovery Institute have started distributing their delusional 'theories' to British state schools?), huge numbers of women would have access to neither birth control or safe abortions, I'd hate to think how much more difficult it would be to be gay, those who didn't join in compulsory prayer sessions at schools, government buildings courthouses etc. would likely face severe repurcussions..... I could go on. Thing is, if we all just ignore the hate that these people are spouting they will gain ground and gain power. It does take people to actually stand up and confront them on just how stupid they're being for progress to be made.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #190 January 22, 2007 Quote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #191 January 22, 2007 QuoteI think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. that's my only point to you two ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #192 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Well shit - with all my posts here as a proponent of gay marriage that must mean..... This may lead to a major change in my lifestyle!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #193 January 23, 2007 QuoteSo how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Now I admit that little commentary didn’t clear it up completely, so let me add other insights. First notice the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” If this verse was to be literal then God would show mercy for thousands of generations for those who loved God. That means all you’d have to do was find a grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, great great great grandfather, and so on, that loved God and you’d be exempt from the curse. The odds are pretty good that out of 1000 generations, some dude in your family loved God. More importantly than this supposition is the empirical evidence from the Bible itself that this verse is NOT literal. King Hezekiah was Judah’s most righteous king, but his son, Manasseh, was evil. Manasseh’s grandson, Josiah, was a righteous king who brought revival. . What happened to God’s promise of mercies to show Hezekiah’s children for a thousand generation? What happened to Manasseh’ curse to the 3rd & 4th generation? The fact they do not exist ought to give us a clue that the passage is not about generational curses, but about God’s unbounding mercies. Another insight is found from JC. When healing a blind man he was asked who sinned to cause this man to be born blind, him or his parents? JC’s reply it was not related to anyone’s sin, but rather to demonstrate the glory of God. (John 9:1-3) Also Ezekiel 18 gives further clarity. Read it when you have time. For those who remain unconvinced, consider Christ. He bore our curses by being made a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Gal 3:13). If any such thing as a generational curse does exist, that curse over our life would have been broken by Christ. In Christ we receive the mercy of God, not a curse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #194 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen's the last time you had an Athiest/Agnostic person knock on your door or come up to you on the street to talk to you about evolution and give you a pamplet. Doesn't happen. and you would be wrong on that assumption every faith has activist elements (usually a very small, and non-representative element) - including the faith of atheism I realize there are outspoken athiests, I was just asking when was the last time you specifically, or anyone else on here, has had an athiest knock on their door or hand them a pamplet, pretty much everyone has had a religous person do that, not many has had an athiest do that. And I'm not talking specifically about christianity, any religion that does this works fine. I work with a lot of muslims and while I would probably get in trouble for speaking about athiesm, they are free to try to convert me at any time, and they do try.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #195 January 23, 2007 Well you said you would not punish current Germans for the crimes of the Nazis, this is about 3 generations away yet the bible clearly states that punishing generations more than this is ok. Furthermore the entire concept of original sin implies that the sins of the fathers are inherited by the children, further highlighting your massive contradiction. Btw it is you who who have added your own context to suit your needs. The actualt text doesnt say generation it says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. you added the word generations to make it suit your these. ( i think what the bible meant to say was...)Quite frankly i am amzed you can ask "Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers?" when its written exactly that clear as day. Do you think every single word in the bible is a metaphor? When are you going to let go? the fact that god offers mercy for those that love him and keep his commandments - which is not anyone that breaks the sabbath for example- is irrelvant to the proven fact that he does visit the sins of the fathers onto their children. Lets note also hes offering mercy implying we are guilty before weve even committe the crime. A ridiculous form of justice if ever there was one. Thankfully people fdont follow the bible, it will be an ugly world if we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #196 January 23, 2007 QuoteI'm sure that if religious zealots would cease and desist trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools and encoded in legal statutes, the rest of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them. agreed. i begrudge NO ONE practice of their religion.. just dont annoy me with your silly beliefs and i wont annoy you with mine. That is a basic respect that the "converting' religions cannot abide.. now where is my frisbee??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #197 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. you might want to look at the number of posts started by Christians... they bring it on themselves.. particularly when they cry 'persecution' to get attention.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #198 January 23, 2007 Sorry i didnt c your second post. "the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” Did you read it? First off its not just those that hate god but their children , also their children and their children again. Now what is the difference between this and saying we shall not just punish the Nazis but their children, their grandchildren and their great grandchildren. Now gods love is clearly stated as conditional on those that keep his commandments, so you are wrong when you say god reserves his wrath for those that hate him, its clear its there for those that dont keep his commandments. this is evidenced by the fact that he gives out the death penalty for simple infringmenets like breaking the sabbath. You talk about context, but you ignore the context of the passage. This passage is one of the ten commandments and god is stressing how important it is not to worship another god (screwing up?) and what he will do if you do; not just punish you, but punish your children, your grandchildren, and your great grand children. God even tells us his motivation for this , its because he is jealous. All your other examples merely show that god doesnt act consistently in the bible. Human beings dont always act consistently and since the bible was written by (most likely) several different human beings thats exactly what we would expect. A fallible god character created by fallible men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #199 January 23, 2007 Obviously you did not read my post with any intenet to learn. Like most fundamentalist you think you have your verse that proves God's wrath is unreasonable. I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. I used empirical evidence from the Kings of Judah to show that it could not be taken literally. I gave you the reference to Ezekiel 18 that is biblical commentary about generational curses. I also gave you JC's commentary about "generational curses". You obviously don't want to see. BTW I did not add {generations} The NIV translators added it. I merely quoted the text from their translation. Why did they add it? Because the same verse is quoted in Deut 5, and all the reliable texts have the word generation there. NIV and KJV have generations in each of their translations. But yes, NIV shows the word was omitted in translation of the EX text, but consistentancy with a parrallel text shows it should be in there. Of course KJV don't recognize the fact the same verse in a parralel passage has the word. Now you must be one of King James Only Atheists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #200 January 23, 2007 Quote I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. Quote I just don't see how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath when the majority of the worlds past population (Native Americans, Aztecs, Incans, Mayan, African tribes, Egyptians, Vikings, Ancient Greeks, Chineese, Japanese, and many other past civilizations) along with the majority of the people on earth today are going to hell. Some mercy if you ask meWe die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 8 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 3,080 #184 January 22, 2007 >but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #185 January 22, 2007 Quote>but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking >Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups >combined. I think it would be pretty safe to say that attacks on muslims outnumber attacks on christians, based purely on numbers of posts. It would be impossible to quantify, of course. Some christians would count attacks against Pat Robertson as attacks against christianity; some muslims would count attacks against the taliban as attacks against islam. People attacking christians will no doubt defend their attacks as not being against christians but just against the extremist fringes; likewise with people attacking muslims. So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of calling a spade a spade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #186 January 22, 2007 >So, let's all take a non-judgemental, relativistic approach instead of >calling a spade a spade. Are you perhaps answering someone else? Or are you answering what you wish I had posted instead of what I actually did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #187 January 22, 2007 "No, I don't think the Germans of 21st century should be punished for Nazis, etc. However, if the Germans do not learn from that (and USA doesn't learn from it's own ilglorious past) we deserve what we get." So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and can you justify the concept of original sin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #188 January 22, 2007 Quote So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Theologians ask "What is this the point of the passage?" Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers? I don't think so. As I have said many times ... look at the context, include the next verse. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. God's wrath would be visited to the third and fourth generations for those who hate God, His mercy would be visited on thousands of generations for those who love God. Notice the contrast. The point of this passage is not to communicate the number of generations who will be blessed versus the number who will be cursed, but rather that God's mercy far exceeds His wrath. Ironically you have used these passages to stress the severity of God's wrath over His mercy! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #189 January 22, 2007 Sorry I took so long to answer, I was just playing pool with my christian housemate. Now where were we - oh yeah, how I hate all religious people. QuoteYour post is just a repeat of Nightengale's but it has less class as you opened it with an insult to the religious fundies before restating her point. (I'm agnostic, BTW) So could you tell me where the ability to apply reason fits in with believing the world is 6,000 years old, the grand canyon was carved by a global flood, people in the days of yore lived 'til they were 900 because they were genetically pure and that a big hand in the sky is about to come down and take all the believers away some time in the next decade or so? (By the way I didn't know you were agnostic, I guess I must have missed the first 500 times you posted it) QuoteBut, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I really doubt they have any kind of beneficient intentions. Just another axe to grind. Perhaps if the atheistic fundies could apply a modicum of "higher reasoning, and just join their 'normal' atheist friends in living their own lives and ignoring the religious fundies (their counterparts) - then they would so perfectly reflect the other organized religions so well. So where would we be if everyone just ignored the Fundamentalist Literalists and no one argued against them? The teaching of basic biology would be outlawed in many of your States and god knows you guys are bad enough at it already (BTW, did you know the Discovery Institute have started distributing their delusional 'theories' to British state schools?), huge numbers of women would have access to neither birth control or safe abortions, I'd hate to think how much more difficult it would be to be gay, those who didn't join in compulsory prayer sessions at schools, government buildings courthouses etc. would likely face severe repurcussions..... I could go on. Thing is, if we all just ignore the hate that these people are spouting they will gain ground and gain power. It does take people to actually stand up and confront them on just how stupid they're being for progress to be made.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #190 January 22, 2007 Quote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #191 January 22, 2007 QuoteI think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. that's my only point to you two ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #192 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuote But, again, the idea that the atheists are targetting the "most dangerous" is an implication that they are doing it to protect society. I think it's more selfish than that... I think the arguments are largely to protect themselves. Protecting society is just a nice bonus. Well shit - with all my posts here as a proponent of gay marriage that must mean..... This may lead to a major change in my lifestyle!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #193 January 23, 2007 QuoteSo how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Now I admit that little commentary didn’t clear it up completely, so let me add other insights. First notice the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” If this verse was to be literal then God would show mercy for thousands of generations for those who loved God. That means all you’d have to do was find a grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, great great great grandfather, and so on, that loved God and you’d be exempt from the curse. The odds are pretty good that out of 1000 generations, some dude in your family loved God. More importantly than this supposition is the empirical evidence from the Bible itself that this verse is NOT literal. King Hezekiah was Judah’s most righteous king, but his son, Manasseh, was evil. Manasseh’s grandson, Josiah, was a righteous king who brought revival. . What happened to God’s promise of mercies to show Hezekiah’s children for a thousand generation? What happened to Manasseh’ curse to the 3rd & 4th generation? The fact they do not exist ought to give us a clue that the passage is not about generational curses, but about God’s unbounding mercies. Another insight is found from JC. When healing a blind man he was asked who sinned to cause this man to be born blind, him or his parents? JC’s reply it was not related to anyone’s sin, but rather to demonstrate the glory of God. (John 9:1-3) Also Ezekiel 18 gives further clarity. Read it when you have time. For those who remain unconvinced, consider Christ. He bore our curses by being made a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Gal 3:13). If any such thing as a generational curse does exist, that curse over our life would have been broken by Christ. In Christ we receive the mercy of God, not a curse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #194 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen's the last time you had an Athiest/Agnostic person knock on your door or come up to you on the street to talk to you about evolution and give you a pamplet. Doesn't happen. and you would be wrong on that assumption every faith has activist elements (usually a very small, and non-representative element) - including the faith of atheism I realize there are outspoken athiests, I was just asking when was the last time you specifically, or anyone else on here, has had an athiest knock on their door or hand them a pamplet, pretty much everyone has had a religous person do that, not many has had an athiest do that. And I'm not talking specifically about christianity, any religion that does this works fine. I work with a lot of muslims and while I would probably get in trouble for speaking about athiesm, they are free to try to convert me at any time, and they do try.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #195 January 23, 2007 Well you said you would not punish current Germans for the crimes of the Nazis, this is about 3 generations away yet the bible clearly states that punishing generations more than this is ok. Furthermore the entire concept of original sin implies that the sins of the fathers are inherited by the children, further highlighting your massive contradiction. Btw it is you who who have added your own context to suit your needs. The actualt text doesnt say generation it says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. you added the word generations to make it suit your these. ( i think what the bible meant to say was...)Quite frankly i am amzed you can ask "Does it mean to convey the idea that God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers?" when its written exactly that clear as day. Do you think every single word in the bible is a metaphor? When are you going to let go? the fact that god offers mercy for those that love him and keep his commandments - which is not anyone that breaks the sabbath for example- is irrelvant to the proven fact that he does visit the sins of the fathers onto their children. Lets note also hes offering mercy implying we are guilty before weve even committe the crime. A ridiculous form of justice if ever there was one. Thankfully people fdont follow the bible, it will be an ugly world if we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #196 January 23, 2007 QuoteI'm sure that if religious zealots would cease and desist trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools and encoded in legal statutes, the rest of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them. agreed. i begrudge NO ONE practice of their religion.. just dont annoy me with your silly beliefs and i wont annoy you with mine. That is a basic respect that the "converting' religions cannot abide.. now where is my frisbee??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #197 January 23, 2007 QuoteQuite possibly true, but I'd bet the number of posts (in Speakers Corner) attacking Christians/Christianity outnumbers attacks on all those groups combined. you might want to look at the number of posts started by Christians... they bring it on themselves.. particularly when they cry 'persecution' to get attention.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #198 January 23, 2007 Sorry i didnt c your second post. "the curse is for those who “hate" God, not “love God but screw up.” Did you read it? First off its not just those that hate god but their children , also their children and their children again. Now what is the difference between this and saying we shall not just punish the Nazis but their children, their grandchildren and their great grandchildren. Now gods love is clearly stated as conditional on those that keep his commandments, so you are wrong when you say god reserves his wrath for those that hate him, its clear its there for those that dont keep his commandments. this is evidenced by the fact that he gives out the death penalty for simple infringmenets like breaking the sabbath. You talk about context, but you ignore the context of the passage. This passage is one of the ten commandments and god is stressing how important it is not to worship another god (screwing up?) and what he will do if you do; not just punish you, but punish your children, your grandchildren, and your great grand children. God even tells us his motivation for this , its because he is jealous. All your other examples merely show that god doesnt act consistently in the bible. Human beings dont always act consistently and since the bible was written by (most likely) several different human beings thats exactly what we would expect. A fallible god character created by fallible men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #199 January 23, 2007 Obviously you did not read my post with any intenet to learn. Like most fundamentalist you think you have your verse that proves God's wrath is unreasonable. I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. I used empirical evidence from the Kings of Judah to show that it could not be taken literally. I gave you the reference to Ezekiel 18 that is biblical commentary about generational curses. I also gave you JC's commentary about "generational curses". You obviously don't want to see. BTW I did not add {generations} The NIV translators added it. I merely quoted the text from their translation. Why did they add it? Because the same verse is quoted in Deut 5, and all the reliable texts have the word generation there. NIV and KJV have generations in each of their translations. But yes, NIV shows the word was omitted in translation of the EX text, but consistentancy with a parrallel text shows it should be in there. Of course KJV don't recognize the fact the same verse in a parralel passage has the word. Now you must be one of King James Only Atheists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #200 January 23, 2007 Quote I "tried' to show you that passage is not about generational curses, but how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath. Quote I just don't see how God's mercies far exceeds his wrath when the majority of the worlds past population (Native Americans, Aztecs, Incans, Mayan, African tribes, Egyptians, Vikings, Ancient Greeks, Chineese, Japanese, and many other past civilizations) along with the majority of the people on earth today are going to hell. Some mercy if you ask meWe die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 8 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
