pajarito 0 #51 January 19, 2007 Quote Who appointed you to be my judge? I'm not your judge. I'm just trying to introduce you to Him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #52 January 19, 2007 Quote But apparently you can bribe him with devotion to pay that fine. You try your bribe, let Kallend try his. I can't even pay my own fine with devotion. My devotion comes from my acceptance of His free gift which came first. ***For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9*** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #53 January 19, 2007 Quote I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. So you say that the universe didnt come from "nothing" but was made by and architect, your god. So where did your god come from??? And no cheating by saying that he has always existed...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #54 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. So you say that the universe didnt come from "nothing" but was made by and architect, your god. So where did your god come from??? And no cheating by saying that he has always existed... That's not cheating. It's logical. Otherwise, there would be infinite regression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #55 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote I especially liked to bit about if you look at god you DIE what caring chap he is... Quote It's got nothing to do with whether He cares about you or not. It's got to do with the degree of his holiness and righteousness compared with your wickedness. Seems rather harse if you ask me.. so what exactly causes this death? I mean your god is "all powerfull" right? so im sure it would be within in his power to not have you die?? all sounds a bit comic book to me...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #56 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. So you say that the universe didnt come from "nothing" but was made by and architect, your god. So where did your god come from??? And no cheating by saying that he has always existed... That's not cheating. It's logical. Otherwise, there would be infinite regression. Same logic can be used to say the universe always existed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #57 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. So you say that the universe didnt come from "nothing" but was made by and architect, your god. So where did your god come from??? And no cheating by saying that he has always existed... That's not cheating. It's logical. Otherwise, there would be infinite regression. So thats your answer, he's just always existed? If god supposedly was always here then it is just as likely the Universe was always here without a god creating it.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #58 January 19, 2007 Instead of proving or disproving different religions why don't we focus on stating specific problems with religion and how to solve those problems. Here is a problem I have with religion and how to solve the problem. (Please respond if this is a possible solution people could agree upon or what problem the solution presents.) Problem: Some people feel that being preached to (for or against religion) when they did not ask to be preached to is a problem. Solution: Preach (for or against) religion only when asked. By stating the problems and attempting to find solutions we could alleviate many of the problems we have with religion while maintaining the solutions it provides. For some people it will always be a problem and for some people it will always be a solution. The best thing for everyone is to minimize the problems and maximize the solutions."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #59 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Christians following the teachings of Christ would be a good place to start. Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life i doubt you will have any argument there from any front.. the studies cited above fail in that they do not separate 'personal belief' from 'organized religion'... the two are LIGHT YEARS apart.... and well illustrated by the need/desire of 'organized religion' and some of its fanatical followers (often exhibited right here) to 'convert the heathens' believe whatever you wish, whatever gives you strength and gets you through life... just dont attempt to convince ME (or anyone else) that your PERSONAL opinion (and that is all it comes down to in the end) is the "one true path" for all...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #60 January 19, 2007 Quote That's not cheating. It's logical. Otherwise, there would be infinite regression. once again.. Paj pulls definitions from his personal dictionary without providing proper warning... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #61 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Tithing ten percent (I’m guessing that is what you’re referring to) of one’s income is from Mosaic Law. Not exactly. The precedant was set when Abraham tithed (which means 10%) to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20) hundreds of years before Levitical law. Interestingly, in Matthew 23 while JC chastised the Pahrisees for their unfair dealings with people, he does indicate the tithe was something they (us?) should be doing. Read that and let me know if you still think the tithe is not a Christ command. Of course in other passage he indicates it is the attitude of the heart that matters the most, but I don't think he was indicating the tithe was no longer valid ... at least as a starting place. hmmm could it be that those who reportedly recorded (not going to bring that arguement here so..) the words of Christ recognized they NEEDED FUNDING to build their church? such clearly secular, material motives call alot of the NT into question...why would God (O3 remember) really care?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #62 January 19, 2007 Quote There is always a degree of fear with regard to the unknown. That's human. i guess i'm not human then... the unknown is simply another opportunity to learn...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #63 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Tithing ten percent (I’m guessing that is what you’re referring to) of one’s income is from Mosaic Law. Not exactly. The precedant was set when Abraham tithed (which means 10%) to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20) hundreds of years before Levitical law. Interestingly, in Matthew 23 while JC chastised the Pahrisees for their unfair dealings with people, he does indicate the tithe was something they (us?) should be doing. Read that and let me know if you still think the tithe is not a Christ command. Of course in other passage he indicates it is the attitude of the heart that matters the most, but I don't think he was indicating the tithe was no longer valid ... at least as a starting place. hmmm could it be that those who reportedly recorded (not going to bring that arguement here so..) the words of Christ recognized they NEEDED FUNDING to build their church? such clearly secular, material motives call alot of the NT into question...why would God (O3 remember) really care? Since at the time of the writing the church (which means assemby -- not a building) were meeting in homes and open markets, and a church building was 300 years away ... I seriously doubt it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #64 January 19, 2007 i think you underestimate the architects of your religion... they knew very well the kind of cultural revolution they were pursuing and the finances required to achieve it.. ah.. my mistake.. i typed Church where i should have put Religion... sorry for the confusion...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #65 January 19, 2007 Quote Christ clarified man's understanding of that law in Luke 14, stating the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath " Which of these statements is false? The 10 commandments is a moral law yes, it is Christ didnt come to change the moral law he came to fulfill it In the 10 commandments one cannot break the sabbath actually it says keep it holy (which means set apart from God.) the Jewish scribes added many additional laws to the sabbath. So many that Christ had to clarify that the sabbath was made for man. Paul went on to say let no man judge you by what sabbath you keep. jC didn't change the original intent. He clarified the misunderstanding In the OT the punishment for breaking the sabbath is death Jesus said its okay to break the sabbath Clarification? contradiction more like. Actually, he doesnt say it is okay; he tries to right their misunderstanding. This put JC at odds with the Jews. How could he break the sabbath and heal people? Late in the first century the jewish liturgy changed by adding a law against the heretics that would break the Sabbath, thus further driving a wedge between the early Christians who met in synagogues. They had to leave ... slowly Christianity became its own religion and not a sect of Judaism steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #66 January 19, 2007 Quote i think you underestimate the architects of your religion... they knew very well the kind of cultural revolution they were pursuing and the finances required to achieve it.. ... Most theologians agree that the earliest Christians saw themselves as Jews, not another religion. The maintenance of their religion was well established. years later as Gentiles came into the faith, and Jews were driven out of Jerusalem (70 AD) The church became less a continuation of Judaism and more of a new faith initially called "the way". The liturgical church you speak of is from the 3rd & 4th century. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #67 January 19, 2007 'theologians' would.. IF he existed at all.. both Jesus (but more so Paul, who is responsible for a great deal of the 'distortions' of what could be considered the basic message of Jesus) were Revolutionaries... NOT theologians.. when i'm bored later (and near my library) i'll hunt down the various Biblical references that directly support the fact the NT message is clearly one of fundamental Political and Cultural change, but with your background you shouldn't have much trouble at all finding them yourself..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #68 January 19, 2007 "actually it says keep it holy (which means set apart from God.) the Jewish scribes added many additional laws to the sabbath. So many that Christ had to clarify that the sabbath was made for man. Paul went on to say let no man judge you by what sabbath you keep. jC didn't change the original intent. He clarified the misunderstanding " It does say keep the Sabbath day holy, but it doesn’t only say that. It also says quiet clearly “But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, “ So it seems pretty unambiguous don’t do any work on the Sabbath, not just keep it holy. That is one of the ten commandments. So for those that say we should follow the bible for our morality should surely agree that we should arrest those that work on the Sabbath. That would surely put all DZ’s out of business straight away. Whether or not the Jewish scribes added additional laws to the sabath was not my point. My point was that the law of the Sabbath is in the 10 commandments clear as day and thhe punishment is also in there clear as day: טו שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, יֵעָשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן קֹדֶשׁ, לַיהוָה; כָּל-הָעֹשֶׂה מְלָאכָה בְּיוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, מוֹת יוּמָת. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Now if Jesus and god are one then that’s him saying kill all Sabbath breakers. Perhaps when the bible says put Sabbath breakers to death its just a metaphor right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #69 January 19, 2007 apologies for the above text, the section that just numbers and so on is becuase i pasted in the hebrerw text and I guess this forum cant display it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #70 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. So you say that the universe didn't come from "nothing" but was made by and architect, your god. So where did your god come from??? And no cheating by saying that he has always existed... That's not cheating. It's logical. Otherwise, there would be infinite regression. No it isn't logical. You are using two directly contradictory statements. 1) Everything that exists must have had a cause. 2) There must be something that exists without a cause. Oh, and suprise surprise your solution to the clash is simply to go one level up from the physical universe, stop there and call it God. How can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #71 January 19, 2007 Quote Solution: Preach (for or against) religion only when asked. Yeah, there's that whole pesky "freedom of speech" thing, though.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #72 January 19, 2007 Quote Oh, and suprise surprise your solution to the clash is simply to go one level up from the physical universe, stop there and call it God. How can you not see how ridiculous that sounds? It's the irony of Matthew 19:26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #73 January 19, 2007 Quote How can you not see how ridiculous that sounds? I find it hard to believe that one doesn't see how ridiculous it sounds otherwise. Then again, I look to scripture. Quote But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are. 1 Corinthians 1:27-28 Quote The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one. Psalm 14:1-3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #74 January 19, 2007 Quote I find it hard to believe that one doesn't see how ridiculous it sounds otherwise. Then again, I look to scripture. Exactly, you get your ideas from scripture. Don't pretend it has anything to do with logicDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #75 January 19, 2007 Quote Quote Solution: Preach (for or against) religion only when asked. Yeah, there's that whole pesky "freedom of speech" thing, though. Just because you are free to do something doesn't mean it makes sense. See also: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2464663#2464663... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
