steveorino 7 #26 January 18, 2007 You get no arument from me. I agree religion has been a main stay in the conflict of man. However, understanding the nature of man, I believe we would have found another reason to fight if religion was not the issue. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #27 January 18, 2007 Thanks Steve, that should keep me busy for a while. I have seen studies that show religious beliefs reduce, for instance, the likelyhood of depression but increase the likelyhood of panic attacks. The psychological effects of religion is a pretty complex issue which doesn't universally seem to make things measurably better or worse for the individual. To my mind that fits with the placebo model, not the "God exists and intervenes in our lives" model. Your milage may vary depending on how hands-on you think god is. For society as a whole, the story is very different I'm sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #28 January 18, 2007 Bad ideas can have bad consequences. Take nationalism and racism in Europe. These were popular ideas until WWII. After the war these ideas were discredited, there has been very little fighting within Europe since. Widespread beliefs can change and that change can have a posiitive effect. Of course if we remove one cause of conflict , for example, religion, it does not mean there will be no more conflicts, but its not unreasonable to suggest there may be less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #29 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution? So long as it is a personal choice it can be a solution. If it's views are enforced on people then it becomes a problem. Many people mistake the problems and wars that have been caused by certain religious people for problems and wars that are caused by religion itself. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #30 January 18, 2007 Perhaps, but the "get rid of religion solution" reminds me of the lesbian claim, "if there were no men, there would be no wars" steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #31 January 18, 2007 Quote Perhaps, but the "get rid of religion solution" reminds me of the lesbian claim, "if there were no men, there would be no wars" This thread was not started to make the statement that religion should be abolished or never have existed. This thread was started to show that there exist negative opinions of religion and allow religious people to address these negative opinions or possible make changes (that do not conflict with their religion) that will relieve some of the negative opinions."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #32 January 18, 2007 Christians following the teachings of Christ would be a good place to start. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,114 #33 January 18, 2007 Quote Christians following the teachings of Christ would be a good place to start. Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #34 January 18, 2007 Im not sure how getting rid of men can be done through peaceful means. Getting rid of religion can be, although obviously its not very likely any time soon. Should Christ be followed when he said his opponenets should be burnt? He was also challeneged on whehter he had come to change the old testament laws and he said no. So presumably we should kill gays, religious opponenets, sabbath breakers etc. These were laws given by god and as I understantd Christian theology Christ=god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #35 January 18, 2007 Quote Im not sure how getting rid of men can be done through peaceful means. Getting rid of religion can be, How would you start that? Religion has been with mankind since the beginning. I don't think it is going anywhere. Quote Should Christ be followed when he said his opponenets should be burnt? How about a text where he says that and is not using fire as a metaphor about hell (absence from God) Hell cannot literally be dark and have fire Quote He was also challeneged on whehter he had come to change the old testament laws and he said no. So presumably we should kill gays, religious opponenets, sabbath breakers etc. These were laws given by god and as I understantd Christian theology Christ=god. His statement was that he did not come to remove the law, but fulfill it. He was refering to moral law, not cultural laws, like dietary and ceremonial law. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #36 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Christians following the teachings of Christ would be a good place to start. Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life Dang prof, well said. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #37 January 18, 2007 Quote I especially liked to bit about if you look at god you DIE what caring chap he is... It's got nothing to do with whether He cares about you or not. It's got to do with the degree of his holiness and righteousness compared with your wickedness. Quote So anyway as I clearly and accurately stated you have no relationship with your god, apart from the one in you mind… the only reasons you can give is that your understanding of the world around you is so lacking that you have to attribute it to a some sort of god. I doubt my understanding of the world around me is any less than yours. I just realize an architect whereas you think it all just happened from nothing. However, that is not the "only" reason as you stated. My other source of belief comes from the Bible. Quote Im Interested Paj, what is it you are scared of, what is it you need a god for??? are you scared of death, scared that when you die thats it, for ever, are you scared you might go to hell, what is it.. come maybe we can get to the bottom of this... There is always a degree of fear with regard to the unknown. That's human. However, I am no longer afraid of death with regard to my eternal soul. Before I was saved and when I realized that hell was a reality, you bet I was scared. You should be too. I won't be going there, though. Not because I'm a good person but because I'm a bad person whose repented and put my full faith in the only one who can save me (and change me). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #38 January 18, 2007 Quote you truly have a warped mind! that means if you come face to face with him you are already dead! As I stated before, it’s about the degree of God’s holiness and righteousness compared to your degree of wickedness. There is an incomprehensible gulf which divides us and God and that is what makes even the possibility of your being saved totally amazing. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. He paid the debt you still owe. However, you have to appropriate it or you will still receive justice. Quote what branch of the faith do you belong to? I am a born again evangelical Bible believing Christian. I belong to a Southern Baptist Church, although, I’ve also belonged to a Presbyterian (PCA not PCUSA) Church years ago. The denomination is not what is important to me but what they teach is. If they represent the God of the Bible and NOT themselves and we agree on the important aspects with regard to salvation, then I feel alright with disagreeing on much of what divides many denominations. Quote what do you think of other religons? They’re wrong. Quote what % of your income goes to the church? Tithing ten percent (I’m guessing that is what you’re referring to) of one’s income is from Mosaic Law. The born again Christian is not bound by that anymore but is under grace through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Now, instead of a legal requirement, the believer is allowed the opportunity to give of him/herself. This is really an even higher standard. Many people give way more than the Old Testament requirement. Many still use ten percent as a general guideline. In answer to your question, yes, I tithe. Added: The bottom line is that you cannot bribe God with your good works. That includes tithing. God requires much more than that. He is concerned about your heart. He commands all to repent and put their faith in him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #39 January 18, 2007 Quote Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life True but that is not enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #40 January 18, 2007 "How would you start that? Religion has been with mankind since the beginning. I don't think it is going anywhere. I beleve similar arguments were used for slavery. Attitudes can change. In My own country a recent Mori poll showed 62% of people think human nature gives us our sense of right and wrong;only 27% believed it came from religion. Rational argument has made a difference and may continue to do so. Many religions which were once dominant eg Greek, Norse, Roman are now virtually exitinct. Whilst I dont predict the end of our current religions any time soon, one can never rule it out some time in the future. "How about a text where he says that and is not using fire as a metaphor about hell (absence from God) Hell cannot literally be dark and have fire " Ive given the text but here it is again: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)T You may say it is a metaphor but that is just your opinion.if it is a metahor for hell why do men gather them as sticks? Surely the implies action here on Earth? The facts are that many Christians through the ages have not agreed with you and the result is people beng burnt alive, that is a historical fact. They believed they were following Christs words. As I said before if Christ is god and can see the future he would know these events would occur and said somethiNG like "never kill in my name" - he didn't. "He was refering to moral law, not cultural laws, like dietary and ceremonial law. " Again that is your opinion and Im glad you have it. but the sad fact is many christians dont agree with you hence groups like "god hates fags" again if god wanted people to not persecute home sexuals etc then perhaps he could have been clearer. Furthermore you say moral law; well for example in the OT breaking the sabath is one of the 10 commandments, surely, a moral law? The penalty for transgressing this law is death. Why dont we follow the teachings of the bible and execute sabath breakers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life True but that is not enough. now you're arguing like a liberal - someone says something that you could acknowledge as a good statement and you spin it just to ratchet it your direction ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #42 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life True but that is not enough. now you're arguing like a liberal - someone says something that you could acknowledge as a good statement and you spin it just to ratchet it your direction You cannot bribe God with good works you might do in order to pay the fine that you owe for your lawlessness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #43 January 18, 2007 Quote Furthermore you say moral law; well for example in the OT breaking the sabath is one of the 10 commandments, surely, a moral law? The penalty for transgressing this law is death. Why dont we follow the teachings of the bible and execute sabath breakers? Christ clarified man's understanding of that law in Luke 14, stating the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath Quote "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6) You may say it is a metaphor but that is just your opinion.if it is a metahor for hell why do men gather them as sticks? Surely the implies action here on Earth? I know of NO serious theologian that believes John 15 is a literal command. I have only read fundamental atheists on this forum state that as such. Their education and understanding in theology and how to study it is as lacking as my understanding of science. That passage speaks of God's judgment, not man's. Have men used Christ's words to do harm? Absolutely. As for your suggestion: if Christ is god and can see the future he would know these events would occur and said somethiNG like "never kill in my name" - he didn't The only way to not have people misuse what you say is to say nothing at all. But alas, even that will not suffice, as some have taken Christ's silence on subjects such as homosexuality and slavery as his approval steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #44 January 18, 2007 Quote Tithing ten percent (I’m guessing that is what you’re referring to) of one’s income is from Mosaic Law. Not exactly. The precedant was set when Abraham tithed (which means 10%) to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20) hundreds of years before Levitical law. Interestingly, in Matthew 23 while JC chastised the Pahrisees for their unfair dealings with people, he does indicate the tithe was something they (us?) should be doing. Read that and let me know if you still think the tithe is not a Christ command. Of course in other passage he indicates it is the attitude of the heart that matters the most, but I don't think he was indicating the tithe was no longer valid ... at least as a starting place. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,114 #45 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life True but that is not enough. Who appointed you to be my judge?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,568 #46 January 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Whether or not you are a Christian, the teachings attributed to Jesus form the basis of a pretty good way to live your life True but that is not enough. Who appointed you to be my judge? Wow, you just haven't been listening at all have you?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #47 January 18, 2007 "Christ clarified man's understanding of that law in Luke 14, stating the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath " Which of these statements is false? The 10 commandments is a moral law Christ didnt come to change the moral law In the 10 commandments one cannot break the sabbath In the OT the punishment for breaking the sabbath is death Jesus said its okay to break the sabbath Clarification? contradiction more like. "I know of NO serious theologian that believes John 15 is a literal command. " Well that maybe true in your circles at this present moment of time. But perhaps you might consider Christianity is a bit bigger than that, it has spanned the globe and been around for thousands of years. A large number of people for a significant proportion of that time have acted entirley consistnetly with taking John 15 as a literal command.Whilst we can't go back and read their minds,the fact is they professed to follow jesus, jesus said burn unbelievers and they literally did it. Its all very well you saying current theologians that you know think its a metaphor, that doesnt alleviate the suffering of all those poeple that died horribly in Christian fires. if JFk said i want Castro dead and then the CIA had assasinated do you think we would take it seriously if he then he said "oh I was talking metaphorically". "The only way to not have people misuse what you say is to say nothing at all. But alas, even that will not suffice, as some have taken Christ's silence on subjects such as homosexuality and slavery as his approval" Well perhpas that would have been better.You say Christ is silent on homesexuals and slavery but you forget one thing. Is Christ not god in human form? And is that god not the same god as the one who wrote/inspired the OT? and does not the OT condenm homo sexuals to death?Doesn't the bible have rules on how to treat slaves instead of simply condemming it? All of this is entriley consistent with it being the morality of ancient men rather than the teaching of an all just god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 January 19, 2007 Quote You cannot bribe God with good works you might do in order to pay the fine that you owe for your lawlessness. that was random ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #49 January 19, 2007 >You cannot bribe God with good works you might do in order to pay >the fine that you owe for your lawlessness. But apparently you can bribe him with devotion to pay that fine. You try your bribe, let Kallend try his. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #50 January 19, 2007 Quote Not exactly. The precedant was set when Abraham tithed (which means 10%) to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20) hundreds of years before Levitical law. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think it became obligatory or law until Moses. Abraham did tithe but it’s only recorded once and he did not pass the practice on to his sons. He also gave it as a gift offering for his victory and not as a continual contribution from his “income.” It really doesn’t matter with regard to what I was talking about, though. We’re still not “obligated” to ten percent from the Law now. Quote Interestingly, in Matthew 23 while JC chastised the Pahrisees for their unfair dealings with people, he does indicate the tithe was something they (us?) should be doing. Jesus was chastising the Pharisees because they were self-righteous and because they thought they followed the law. Jesus pointed out that they did not (could not) follow the law they professed to be experts in perfectly. In any case, we are no longer under Law but under Grace. That does not mean we aren’t instructed to give. We just aren’t obligated to tithe in the Mosaic Law sense. I still personally use ten percent as a baseline, however. Jesus said, “Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2 Corinthians 9:7 Quote Read that and let me know if you still think the tithe is not a Christ command. Of course in other passage he indicates it is the attitude of the heart that matters the most, but I don't think he was indicating the tithe was no longer valid ... at least as a starting place. It is still valid. We just aren’t bound by the Law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
