JackC 0
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Right, so being saved doesn't depend on works. I quote "He wasn't instructing them how to be saved. He was instructing them how to act now that they have been saved". Wasn't that Philh's point?
Maybe I missed his point. James saying faith without works is dead implies that although being saved by grace means you don't work to get into heaven, accepting grace means a transformation in our lives. JC says the same thing when he says "This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
steveOrino
JackC 0
OK, you show your salvation through works. So without good works are you really saved at all? The fact that James had to explain to the "saved" that they needed to behave in a certain way definately suggests that being saved doesn't automatically mean works will follow. Nor does it imply that works were required for them to be saved since they had already been "saved" despite their apparent lack of works. This is again in contrast to James's comment that faith (salvation) without works is dead but in agreement with Paul's statement that you are saved by faith not works. In short, much like this post, the whole faith/salvation/works dogma is incoherent gibberish.
I'm sorry I could not make it more clear to you. I tried my best. peace.
steveOrino
steveOrino
JackC 0
Dude, I won't shoot the messenger just because the message doesn't make any sense.
It's a simple question really: assuming you have faith, do your works affect your entry into heaven? It's a yes or no answer.
It's a simple question really: assuming you have faith, do your works affect your entry into heaven? It's a yes or no answer.
Dude, I won't shoot the messenger just because the message doesn't make any sense.
It's a simple question really: assuming you have faith, do your works affect your entry into heaven? It's a yes or no answer.
No (emphasis mine)
steveOrino
JackC 0
And after all that, Philh's argument turns out to be correct. So what was your objection to it again?
philh 0
Another way to put it, who is more likely to get into heaven?
a) Gahndi who campaigned for non violence but was a Hindu and thereofre deinied the divintiy of Christ
b)Francis Crick co discoverer of the structure of the DNA who has enormously helped progress in bioligical science but who resigned from his College in protest that they built a Christian chapel.
c)Jef Dahmer the serial killer who ate his many vicitms but then became a Chrsitian and asked Christ for forgiveness.
I think you will find the answer is c and that reveals a lot about the nature of religion and its affect on the world.
a) Gahndi who campaigned for non violence but was a Hindu and thereofre deinied the divintiy of Christ
b)Francis Crick co discoverer of the structure of the DNA who has enormously helped progress in bioligical science but who resigned from his College in protest that they built a Christian chapel.
c)Jef Dahmer the serial killer who ate his many vicitms but then became a Chrsitian and asked Christ for forgiveness.
I think you will find the answer is c and that reveals a lot about the nature of religion and its affect on the world.
And after all that, Philh's argument turns out to be correct.
His argument from this? So someone that does good deeds and acts with compasion but doesnt sign up to be one of the faithful can't get into heaven. But someone that does bad deeds and does sign up to the faith can get into heaven. Is it any wonder then that people who are religious are more keen to acts religiously (however that is defined) than to act with compassion
The point being lost here is you "get into heaven" by grace, not by your works. The best ANY man can do will not earn him heaven. Good man/bad man, it makes no difference. You are not going to work your way into heaven. It is a gift, but you must accept His gift. If you thumb your nose at God and say, "No thanks" you reject that gift (God's grace)
Will some "good" people reject God and spend eternity apart from him? Yes. Will some "bad" people turn from their ways and accept God's grace and be with him for eternity? Yes.
Look at this response from JC: To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14
There are some who believe works on earth = rewards in heaven. I know the verses they use to back that up, but I disagree. Of course, I could be wrong. I don't think my "works" earn me anything. I think they show I have decided to follow Christ's teachings, and truthfully, they give me a sense of doing something good for people.
steveOrino
Another way to put it, who is more likely to get into heaven?
a) Gahndi who campaigned for non violence but was a Hindu and thereofre deinied the divintiy of Christ
b)Francis Crick co discoverer of the structure of the DNA who has enormously helped progress in bioligical science but who resigned from his College in protest that they built a Christian chapel.
c)Jef Dahmer the serial killer who ate his many vicitms but then became a Chrsitian and asked Christ for forgiveness.
I think you will find the answer is c and that reveals a lot about the nature of religion and its affect on the world.
No, I think it reveals your works won't get you there, but accepting God's grace will. In other words ... No matter how good you are, you can't earn heaven. No matter how bad you are God will forgive you IF you ask.
steveOrino
philh 0
so you agree c is the correct answer?
so you agree c is the correct answer?
I don't know any of these men's fate or their hearts. But if Ghandi and Cric rejected God and Dahlmer asked God's forgiveness then "c" is correct. Again, read what JC said in his parable. The Pharisee was a "good" man, the tax collector was not. The tax collector walked away justified, the Pahrisee did not.
steveOrino
philh 0
So now we are getting somewhere. So the god of the bible favours serial killers who follow him and will punish good men of peace and science if they dont; what a c*nt.
So now we are getting somewhere. So the god of the bible favours serial killers who follow him and will punish good men of peace and science if they dont; what a c*nt.
Nice spin.
Let me spin it another way. God favors any man who ask forgiveness, no matter if they are serial killers, but rejects any man who thinks his own righteousness is a ticket to heaven.steveOrino
jakee 1,569
So now we are getting somewhere. So the god of the bible favours serial killers who follow him and will punish good men of peace and science if they dont; what a c*nt.
Nice spin.
And that 'spin' is the reason that so many find your concept of god to be so completely odious.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
So now we are getting somewhere. So the god of the bible favours serial killers who follow him and will punish good men of peace and science if they dont; what a c*nt.
Nice spin.
And that 'spin' is the reason that so many find your concept of god to be so completely odious.
You would like it better if "good" people like Ghandi went to heaven and "bad" people like Dahmer went to hell? Right?
steveOrino
billvon 3,088
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>You would like it better if "good" people like Ghandi went to heaven
>and "bad" people like Dahmer went to hell?
Well, if it's true that the Ghandis are going to hell and the Dahmers are going to heaven, I know where I'd rather be.
>and "bad" people like Dahmer went to hell?
Well, if it's true that the Ghandis are going to hell and the Dahmers are going to heaven, I know where I'd rather be.
>You would like it better if "good" people like Ghandi went to heaven
>and "bad" people like Dahmer went to hell?
Well, if it's true that the Ghandis are going to hell and the Dahmers are going to heaven, I know where I'd rather be.
I see your point, but I've been around a lot of self-righteous people who think their poo doesn't stink. I'd rather be around the guy who knows he is not righteous (regardless of what he has done) and is humble before God, than somebody who thinks God owes them a favor because they were so good.
steveOrino
jakee 1,569
So now we are getting somewhere. So the god of the bible favours serial killers who follow him and will punish good men of peace and science if they dont; what a c*nt.
Nice spin.
And that 'spin' is the reason that so many find your concept of god to be so completely odious.
You would like it better if "good" people like Ghandi went to heaven and "bad" people like Dahmer went to hell? Right?
Dead is dead - no one is actually going to heaven.
That said, yes if your religion did hold that view I might be inclined to give it a modicum of respect. As it is the deity you describe seems like an insecure tosspot who doesn't care what people do as long as they kiss his arse.
If the universe worked the way you think it does that would not be a universe I would care to live in.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
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