steveorino 7 #126 January 20, 2007 I realize the basic tenants of fundamental Christianity are beliefs i mostly hold to be true. When I use the erm I'm typically referring to those who believe every word of the Bible to be literally true and reject many metaphors. Take for instance the Holy Bible. Most fundamentalist beieve it is inerrant in every aspect. My studies have shown that not to be true. There are typographical and transcription errors. There are other changes that may or may not have been so innocent. It is "my" belief the Bible is inerrant in the manner in which it points to Christ as Saviorof the world. It is not inerrant as a history or a science book. Two purposes given to it, which I do not believe it ever had intended. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #127 January 21, 2007 I wonder do you believe that the Adand and Eve story literally happened or is it a metaphor and if it did happen when do you believe it happened? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #128 January 21, 2007 QuoteI wonder do you believe that the Adand and Eve story literally happened or is it a metaphor and if it did happen when do you believe it happened? I'm not a Christian but I can tell you many Christians I have talked to view it as a metaphor (a metaphor that also allows for evolution since Adam was created from sand and Eve was created from Adam). Any ways, neither side is going to convert anyone and we already have a hundred and one threads of fighting so why don't we work on listing the problems and attempting to find solutions. Progress ... it is a possibility."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #129 January 21, 2007 QuoteI wonder do you believe that the Adand and Eve story literally happened or is it a metaphor and if it did happen when do you believe it happened? Literally No. "Adam" is the Hebrew word for "man". It is how the Hebrews saw their beginning. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #130 January 21, 2007 In Christian theology we have inherited original sin from Adam and Eve, Christ comes sto redeem us from that original sin but if Adam and Eve never existed then why should we believe there ever was any original sin in the firt place? Furthermore even if Adam ad eve did exist whhy should the sins of the parents be blamed on their descendants? Should we blame the current generation of germans for the Nazis? Should be we blame the current generation of Amercians for slavery? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #131 January 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteI wonder do you believe that the Adand and Eve story literally happened or is it a metaphor and if it did happen when do you believe it happened? Literally No. "Adam" is the Hebrew word for "man". It is how the Hebrews saw their beginning. Thats interesting. Do you believe in any metaphorical truth to "the fall?" Was there anything that our ancestors did that made us need redemption from Christ? (I wonder if this is why creation is so important to bible belt fundies, if they can't have original sin then their scare mongering loses a lot of its edge)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #132 January 21, 2007 What is this death that you speak of in Genesis? Trees are living things Did their fruit not die before Adam (man) fell? (John 12:24 I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat) Physical death was part of "good" that God saw as he looked at his creation. But what about spiritual death? I believe mankind fell (rebelled) and God brought upon spiritual death (separation from him) as the result. When did this happen? Genesis was a good enough story for many. For me? perhaps not, but I do see the nature of sin in every man. We need a savior. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #133 January 21, 2007 QuoteWhat is this death that you speak of in Genesis? Trees are living things Did their fruit not die before Adam (man) fell? (John 12:24 I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat) Physical death was part of "good" that God saw as he looked at his creation. But what about spiritual death? Death? Sorry, thats gone way over my head QuoteI believe mankind fell (rebelled) and God brought upon spiritual death (separation from him) as the result. When did this happen? Genesis was a good enough story for many. For me? perhaps not, but I do see the nature of sin in every man. We need a savior. Now this is interesting, I'm just going to think out loud for a bit - this isn't aimed at you, you've just given me an idea. From what I've heard of the literal creationists and the fire and brimstone types it seems that the idea of rebellion is very important. Its not just that we are incapable of living up to the law but that once we were perfect and it is our fault that we are now removed from god and our fault that we can't live up to the law. This could be where the battle lines for evolution were drawn - looking at our history it is quite obvious that we never were perfect or in a more godly state than we are now (Look at two of our closest cousins the Chimps and the Binobos, extremely violent and shockingly promiscuous respectively). Therefore their guilt ridden sermons kinda lose some of the bite. Hmmm, amateur psychology, love itDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #134 January 21, 2007 This explains how it all happened.... www.mrdeity.com"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #135 January 21, 2007 A literal interpretation of Genesis tidies up the idea of original sin or at least gives it a concrete beginning. Of course a literal interpretation opens up a can of worms in a myarid of other ways, like science, etc. However, I do not need to believe in a literal 7 day creation to look inside and see I need a savior. I guess I could lay the blame on God and say, "You made me the way I am!" But you know, that never worked for my kids as an excuse when they were young. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #136 January 21, 2007 QuoteI guess I could lay the blame on God and say, "You made me the way I am!" But you know, that never worked for my kids as an excuse when they were young despite the inherent biological process YOU did not create your children, you simply trained them, and yes (by way of example) my father is DIRECTLY responsible for the way i drive... (if you teach a 16 year old J Turns and Bootlegs and help him disable the emergency brake lock to be able to perform them safely, can you really blame the teenager for using that knowledge?) if you believe in the Creator as O3, the Prime Mover etc.. he is Responsible for Everything... or he is not who he claims to be.... or are you going to tell me God is NOT the driving force behind all existence.. i am a product of my genetics and my environment.. those two (general) forces shape who i am and how i think.. i can make distinctions in individual actions and circumstances but I am INCAPABLE of acting against those 2 forces... every decision i make is based on them and their effects on my development..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #137 January 21, 2007 Quotei am a product of my genetics and my environment... By that same reasoning Usay Hussein was not responsible for his actions. His enviornment and genetics made hima brutal man. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #138 January 21, 2007 QuoteQuotei am a product of my genetics and my environment... By that same reasoning Usay Hussein was not responsible for his actions. His enviornment and genetics made hima brutal man. It would be sheer foolishness to suggest that having Saddam as a father did not influence the way he turned out. We can recognise that and still hold him responsible for his actions.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #139 January 21, 2007 QuoteQuotei am a product of my genetics and my environment... By that same reasoning Usay Hussein was not responsible for his actions. His enviornment and genetics made hima brutal man. and of course they did.. it would be ignorant folly to expect him to act in a manner that was TOTALLY at odds with his environment or his genetics.. but WE as humans are only capable of judging a Man by the decisions he makes and the elements that ARE under his control, and so met punishment or reward based on those merits, and more importantly the SOCIAL acceptance or denial of such actions. Divinity has no such limitations. Responsible? yes. Ultimately responsible? For elements of himself he had no control, influence, or even awareness of? No. He was exactly as his genetics and environment made him, and those attributes are not the purview of humanity to decide (at least not yet)____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #140 January 21, 2007 Quote Ultimately responsible? For elements of himself he had no control, influence, or even awareness of? No. He was exactly as his genetics and environment made him, and those attributes are not the purview of humanity to decide (at least not yet) Let's just say I would not want you to be a judge in our system. There are too many who think like that already. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #141 January 22, 2007 religion can never save mankind because religion is SLAVERY- Robert Green Ingersoll If people would quit trying to control each other, we could ALL GET ALONG Christianity is the most perverted system to ever shine upon man.-Thomas Jefferson Exodus 15:3 Jehovah is the manly GOD OF WAR, Jehovah is his name. [/url]www.infidel.org[url]we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #142 January 22, 2007 I dont understand if Adam and Eve didnt exist what basis do you have to believe that there ever was an original sin? Even if there was an original sin why should future generations be punished for it? You didnt respond to my question should todays generation of Germans be punished for the crimes of the Nazis; should the current generation of Americans be punished for the crimes of their fathers who kept slaves? If you agree that they shouldnt then it must be equally unjust for god to do the same. Even if we do agree there was an original sin and that future generations do inherit why not punish them? Why should one mans death who apparently didnt sin be any kind of justice for thosethat do sin?The notion is absurd. If you have a gang of thieves you should arrest them,not go and punsih someone else who never committed a crime. Why should punishing him be any kind of absolution for them? So heres non fundamentalism Christian theology: two people who didnt exist committed a crime that their children strangley "inherit", and thousands of years later a man comes along gets arrested and killed by the Romans and as long as we believe he was able to come back from the dead and ask forgiveness for the crimes of some poeple that didnt exist thenn everything will be ok? And this is supposed to make sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #143 January 22, 2007 For the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #144 January 22, 2007 QuoteFor the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? What sins has, say, a one month old baby committed?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #145 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteFor the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? What sins has, say, a one month old baby committed? Greed. I want to eat now. I want to sleep now. I want to poop now and have you clean it up. I want ... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #146 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteFor the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? What sins has, say, a one month old baby committed? Greed. I want to eat now. I want to sleep now. I want to poop now and have you clean it up. I want ... Silly.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #147 January 22, 2007 QuoteIn Christian theology we have inherited original sin from Adam and Eve, Christ comes sto redeem us from that original sin but if Adam and Eve never existed then why should we believe there ever was any original sin in the firt place? Furthermore even if Adam ad eve did exist whhy should the sins of the parents be blamed on their descendants? Should we blame the current generation of germans for the Nazis? Should be we blame the current generation of Amercians for slavery? That's one popular tradition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #148 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteFor the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? What sins has, say, a one month old baby committed? Greed. I want to eat now. I want to sleep now. I want to poop now and have you clean it up. I want ... Need is not greed. You've never had a kid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #149 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat sins has, say, a one month old baby committed? Greed. I want to eat now. I want to sleep now. I want to poop now and have you clean it up. I want ... Need is not greed. You've never had a kid. You do understand I was joking ... don't you?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #150 January 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFor the time being let's forget any explanation of the origin of sin (lawlessness and missing the mark) Is it universal? I'll be 52 this Friday, and in my half century of living I have never met anyone who was perfect (without sin) Let say there "may" be someone who is perfect. That "someone" is not me. I need a savior. I believe JC is that savior. He, being (without sin) paid the price for me. I accept that, you don't. How hard is that to understand? What sins has, say, a one month old baby committed? Greed. I want to eat now. I want to sleep now. I want to poop now and have you clean it up. I want ... Silly. What is silly is the number of people on this forum who jump at the chance to attack Christians and/or Christianity on a regular basis. It seems like some of the same people who preach a "live and let live mantra" are particualrly vicious in attacking or demeaning all things Christian. Bummer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
