Religion: Problem / Solution

[Butters 0]

Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Nightingale 0]

For individuals, it can be a solution to certain problems. For society as a whole, it's the cause of a lot of problems.

[Darius11 12]

I believe it is the same as anything else it depends on the person.

Some people can take anything way too far, and some can remain balanced.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[unformed 0]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

For most of the world, it's a solution. It gives most of the world something to hope for the future.

There's a few jackasses however who know the Truth and try to force it down everybody else, and so it becomes a problem.

But because they're so fucking loud and annoying, the rest of the world that quietly has their beliefs in the own world and prefer to leave others alone get categorized with the loud, annoying fucks and it looks it's the whole religion which is a problem, rather than the handful of jackasses.

Edit: Nightingale, of course, said it better.

This ad space for sale.

[jakee 1,569]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

Solution to a problem that (for the most part) no longer exists. The problem being that of lack of knowledge. At best I think religion could be called redundant.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Unstable 9]

I think it's more of a solution than a problem. Here is why....


[soap box]
For the most part - religion takes bad men and makes them good, and it takes good men and makes them better. I have yet to run into a church or a religious belief that doesn't teach things that will improve your life and or make you a better person! Religion teaches how to have a happier family, how to live healthier, and how to give your life a degree of meaning.

Take, for example, Islam. 99.99% off the worlds 1-billion odd Muslims live their lives in accordance to what their God teaches them, which isn't to go around blowing people up or treating their women bad. I've lived in Buddhist-dominated countries, and for the most part, they were good people trying to live good lives in accordance to their beliefs.

But then again we see a number of problems - hence the whole 'problem' topic of this thread.

IMHO - if people lived their lives in accordance to what they claim to believe, then I doubt the world would have 1/2 as many problems as we are experiencing now. Somebody who claims to be a j-dub and runs around stealing car radios doesn't get a lot of points in my book - neither would a Buddhist man who gets wasted and goes home and beats his family.
I have certain religious beliefs - and for better or for worse, people who know me know how I believe and have certain expectations. If I go out to the DZ and after a day of jumping get wasted and wake up Monday afternoon - well, then I'm not doing my part to better the world, now am I? I don't give much respect to those who practice outside of their claimed belief.

[/soap box]

=========Shaun ==========

[br0k3n 0]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

Without doubt it’s a problem, as well as an insult to human dignity, but anyway…..

With out religion, many wars would not have been fought, starting with the biblical wars against the enemies of God, through the crusades to modern troubles in the Middle East.

Many of the worlds atrocities would not have been committed, The Inquisition, slavery of Africans, the horrific treatment of native Americans who were considered savages, to name a few.

Also imagine what a difference all the billions of dollars that has been wasted in support of many organised religions through the centuries could have been spent on. Imagine no churches or temples, not edifices that glorify some god, but instead we had cures for Cancer and aids, we had a planet that wasn’t being destroyed by the burning of fossil fuels the list can go on.

And what about all the insidious prejudice that hides behind religion, prejudice masquerading as evangelistic concern, is pandemic within organised religious groups.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[philh 0]

Whilst there may be cases where religion can provide comfort eg at a funeral, I belive overall it is a huge problem. The list of conflicts round the world and through history that have at least partial religious motivation is very long one. Moreover the belief in after life makes it more likely that people will fight in wars, the belief in the things without evidence leads to eroneous views on medicine, the guilt of whitches etc etc. Look at Arabia today, societies which have are the most dominated by religion on the Earth, they are backward, repressed and impovrished. Look at what happned in Europe when it was dominated by religion - it was known as the dark ages.

[JackC 0]

It's not what they believe in, it's the fact that people have an inbuilt willingness to base their life decisions on and in some cases kill and die for, matters of complete blind faith and they are oblivious to the stupidity of it. That's the problem.

[pajarito 0]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

I think most often people substitute religion in place of a true relationship with God and that is a problem.

[Airman1270 0]

First we must understand the terminology. Many people use words such as "religion" to mean "belief in God." It's more complicated than that. From a Judeo-Christian Biblical perspective, "religion" is a word that describes mankind's attempts to make itself acceptable to God. Christianity, in contrast, describes God reaching down to a human race which is incapable of meeting His standards. Thus the teaching that Jesus is a gift to humanity, that bridge which enables us to approach a perfect God despite our imperfect state.

The problems in the world can be traced not to religion, but rather to human nature. It is the teachings of many religions which seek to persuade humans to adopt their guidelines for the purpose of creating "better" societies. The fact that people who align themselves with various religions, yet continue to do bad things, is not a reflection of the religion in question, but rather that human nature which made it necessary for God to cut through the noise and reach out to his imperfect children in the first place.

We can spend hours cataloging various bad things that humans have done to each other throughout recorded history, but it would be difficult to identify bad things which have occurred as a result of people obeying the teachings of mainstream religious organizations. Atheists cite wrong things that have been done "in the name of religion" as an excuse to avoid any serious discussion of God. However, a glance at the evidence suggests quite the opposite; That is, that these bad things occurred as the result of people failing to live up to Biblical teachings.

Nazi Germany. Soviet Russia. China. Cuba. North Korea. Etc. Etc. The common denominator in these governments is an institutionalized atheism and a brutal hostility to a Judeo-Christian world view. (Please spare me the "Hitler-was-a-Catholic" idiocy. If you have any evidence that Nazi philosophy was driven by a commitment to New Testament teachings please make your case. Frankly, the treatment meted out by the Nazi government to clergymen who spoke out against ol' Adolf pretty well blows such arguments out of the water.)

In other words, "religion" is not the problem, but the solution. People who subsribe to wrong religions might go to hell when they die, but while they're still here they tend to be much better citizens & neighbors, further evidence of religion's positive effect on the human experience.

Of course, there is one religious viewpoint which does not fit this theory. The religion of secular humanism has led to the brutal treatment of millions of people by their own governments (see examples cited above.) However, for the purpose of this discussion, we are defining "religion" primarily as a belief in God.

Hope this helps. It damn sure can't provoke any dissent.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[br0k3n 0]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

I think most often people substitute religion in place of a true relationship with God and that is a problem.

Paj old boy, you dont have a relationship with your god, how can you?

Have you met him - NO you havent
Have you even seen him - NO you havent
Have you heard him speak - NO (you will probably claim that you have, so next time perhaps record the converstation so we can all hear the voice of your god)

Do you even know what he looks like - NO you dont

So how can you have a relatioship? im confused.....

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[pajarito 0]

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Paj old boy, you dont have a relationship with your god, how can you?

Have you met him - NO you havent

Not yet.

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Have you even seen him - NO you havent

He is so holy, you'd die if you looked directly at Him.

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"You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live."
Exodus 33:20

Although, I've seen His creation.

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Have you heard him speak - NO (you will probably claim that you have, so next time perhaps record the converstation so we can all hear the voice of your god)

I hear Him speak through his Word in the Bible.

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Do you even know what he looks like - NO you dont

I know his nature which is expressed in the Bible. I think the idea that God needs a physical appearance in this regard is irrelevant and very limited in scope.

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So how can you have a relatioship? im confused.....

Because the Holy Spirit lives in me.

[Zenister 0]

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Paj old boy, you dont have a relationship with your god, how can you?

Have you met him - NO you havent

Not yet.

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Have you even seen him - NO you havent

He is so holy, you'd die if you looked directly at Him.

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"You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live."
Exodus 33:20

nice dodge... cant prove it? Claim it would kill you if you saw it. Works on bronze age tribesmen who tell tales around the fire.. not so effective for modern man..

yaaaawwn

No one who has seen the FSM lives to tell the tale, as they are consumed by his noodlly appendage...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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Do you feel that religion is more of a problem or a solution?

neither..

it is a crutch for those who need emotional/social support.

and a security blanket for those who are afraid of what goes bump in the night...

how it is USED is a problem, as a tool to manipulate the unthinking masses

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[br0k3n 0]

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Paj old boy, you dont have a relationship with your god, how can you?

Have you met him - NO you havent

Not yet.

Quote

Have you even seen him - NO you havent

He is so holy, you'd die if you looked directly at Him.

Quote

"You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live."
Exodus 33:20

Although, I've seen His creation.

Quote

Have you heard him speak - NO (you will probably claim that you have, so next time perhaps record the converstation so we can all hear the voice of your god)

I hear Him speak through his Word in the Bible.

Quote

Do you even know what he looks like - NO you dont

I know his nature which is expressed in the Bible. I think the idea that God needs a physical appearance in this regard is irrelevant and very limited in scope.

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So how can you have a relatioship? im confused.....

Because the Holy Spirit lives in me.

Im sorry Paj you obviously have me confused for a child...

I especially liked to bit about if you look at god you DIE what caring chap he is...

So anyway as I clearly and accurately stated you have no relationship with your god, apart from the one in you mind… the only reasons you can give is that your understanding of the world around you is so lacking that you have to attribute it to a some sort of god.

Im Interested Paj, what is it you are scared of, what is it you need a god for??? are you scared of death, scared that when you die thats it, for ever, are you scared you might go to hell, what is it.. come maybe we can get to the bottom of this...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[philh 0]

“The problems in the world can be traced not to religion, but rather to human nature”

That is nonsense. Have you read anything AQ have to say, they are very clear that religion is their key motivation for their attacks. All their actions, words etc are consistent with that. Of course they are just one example of many. The list of religiously inspired acts of violence is immense. Let’s not forget that it’s not in a human beings nature to blow themselves up, it has to be programmed into them by religion.

“Atheists cite wrong things that have been done "in the name of religion" as an excuse to avoid any serious discussion of God. However, a glance at the evidence suggests quite the opposite; that is, that these bad things occurred as the result of people failing to live up to Biblical teachings.”
No, it’s not an excuse to avoid a discussion of god; it’s a very serious point to demonstrate that religion can have a very negative effect on society.
The problem is that biblical teachings are not clear; if they were, there would not be so many different styles of Christianity, or even Judaism for that matter. Let’s consider some of the worst crimes in history;
Genocide – condoned in the bible
Slavery – condoned in the bible
Brutal Invasions condoned in the bible
Repression – condoned in the bible
I would suggest the problem is that people do follow the bible.

Yes Hitler was a Catholic, the actions of the Nazi were inspired in part by the New Testament and here is the evidence:
In Mein Kampf Hitler wrote the following
“"I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
Echoed in a speech given to the Reichstag, 1938
“I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. "
Of course Hitler did not at alone, the Nazis would have been nothing if not for his henchman and more importantly the surrounding culture they came from. Lets deal with his henchmen first, the other leading Nazis;
“Christ is the first great enemy of the Jews.... that is why Judaism had to get rid of him. For he was shaking the very foundations of its future international power. The Jew is the lie personified.”
Joseph Goebbels

“God gave the savoir to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany. “
Herman Goring

In ideological training I forbid every attack against Christ as a person, since such attacks or insults that Christ was a Jew are unworthy of us and certainly untrue historically.
-Heinrich Himmler

Consider this quote form a Nazi school book
, "When you see a cross, then think of the horrible murder by the Jews on Golgotha”
Look at an SS buckle, the phrase” god is with us” is written clear as day on the front.

Whether or not Hitler really was motivated by Christianity can be debated, he made often contradictory statement. But what is clear is that he used religion as a way to whip up hatred and this hatred led to the death of millions of people. So religion was clearly a problem. Think of the larger cultural context in Germany, which was heavily influenced by Luther. What did Luther say in his writing? This form “On the Jews and Their Lies
“Jerusalem was destroyed over 1400 years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about 300 years… During that time they held us captive and killed us… So we are even at fault for not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for 300 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then… We are at fault in not slaying them”
Still want to claim that Christianity had no part in the motivation of the Nazis?
The facts are clear: the brutal treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was at least in part inspired by Christian beliefs.
Now lets deals with your statement
“Nazi Germany. Soviet Russia. China. Cuba. North Korea. Etc. Etc. The common denominator in these governments is an institutionalized atheism and a brutal hostility to a Judeo-Christian world view.“The religion of secular humanism has led to the brutal treatment of millions of people by their own governments (see examples cited above.)”

You are clearly wrong re Nazi Germany but you are right that the other states were run by Atheists, but I’m afraid you show your political ignorance by implying atheism as the cause. Yes atheism is one common denominator but so is that fact they are were all men, or that they were all hetro sexual , or any other number of things. The real cause of the repression of these regimes was their communism. Communism leads to repression, atheism does not. To demonstrate my point consider Western Europe and especially Scandinavia, these are the most secular societies on Earth, but are they brutally repressive? No they are not, so your argument falls apart. Yes communists are atheists but atheists are not communists, do you understand the difference.?

[jakee 1,569]

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He is so holy, you'd die if you looked directly at Him.

WTF, have I just walked into a schoolyard debate about whos daddy's the strongest? Or is it one of those jokes, like "Yo momma's so fat, if she wore high heels she'd strike oil!"?

And of course, there is actually precedent for that kind of believe - when Semele (a mortal woman) was pregnant with Dionysus, Hera persuaded her to ask Zeus to reveal himself in all his glory, to prove that he really was who he claimed. Of course Semele was burnt up by his glory so Zeus sewed Dionysus into his thigh to finish his gestation, thus making him a God when he was born, rather than a Hero demi-god.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Airman1270 0]

...Let’s consider some of the worst crimes in history;
Genocide – condoned in the bible
Slavery – condoned in the bible
Brutal Invasions condoned in the bible
Repression – condoned in the bible
I would suggest the problem is that people do follow the bible.

Yes Hitler was a Catholic, the actions of the Nazi were inspired in part by the New Testament...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Study the New Testament. Please report back and show us where Jesus instructs us to mistreat others.

The bad things you cited occurred as a result of people acting in ways which contradict Biblical teachings.

You cite violent Islamic terrorists to support your claim that all "religion" is bad. Meanwhile, you list slavery as a bad thing but fail to understand the role religion played in putting a stop to the practice. Slavery had been practiced throughout the world for thousands of years. It was religious people, who understood the value God has placed on humanity, who were able, over time, to gain more influence and convince a growing segment of society that enslaving one's fellow man was an affront to that man's God-given dignity.

Cheers,
Jon

[rhys 0]

>"You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live."
Exodus 33:20


you truly have a warped mind! that means if you come face to face with him you are already dead!

it is not true!
how much of this stuff have you misrepresented?

what branch of the faith do you belong to? what do you think of other religons?


what % of your income goes to the church?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[philh 0]

"Study the New Testament. Please report back and show us where Jesus instructs us to mistreat others.

sure
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)Think youll find quite a few Chrsitians did indeed burn their fellows just as Christ would have known they would, given he can see the future.
Furthermore why are you only looking at the NT? last time I looked Christian bibles had the OT and NT.

"Meanwhile, you list slavery as a bad thing but fail to understand the role religion played in putting a stop to the practice."

Actally during the slavery debates that raged in the USA in the 19th century many Christians were inspired by their religion to defend slavery. I will quote you some examples:

"Such were the nature and extent of slavery in the world, when our Saviour appeared, to proclaim "peace on earth, and good will to men"--to preach the glad tidings of salvation to a ruined world--to redeem us from sin and everlasting death, and to "open the kingdom of Heaven to all believers." And how did he regard it? What had he to say of this institution, as he found it existing among the people he came to save? Did he condemn it as anti-scriptural and unjust? Did he enjoin on his disciples an immediate emancipation of their slaves? Did he so much as caution his followers against purchasing them in the future? Not a word, disapproving the practice, ever fell from his lips. "A.E. Miller, Printer to The Protestant Episcopal Society for the Advancement of Christianity in South-Carolina, 1837):

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America 1,2
bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist pastor, South Carolina.

[steveorino 7]

Extrinsically religious people are those whose views are motivated by a need to attain status or be accepted by others. Intrinsically religious people are those who internalize their beliefs so they become the primary motivating influence in their lives. Many of this group speak to a certain time when they came to faith. Studies have shown extrinsically religiosity can and often does have a negative effect on physical and emotional health; whereas intrinsic faith has demonstrated a positive effect in people’s lives. (JAMA 284, no. 13, Oct 4, 2000)

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

Which article did that study apear in? I can't seem to find it from the partial reference.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol284/issue13/index.dtl

[steveorino 7]

Here are a few references that back that statement up:


"Religion spirituality, and medicine: applications to clinical practice." JAMA 284, no. 13 (oct 4, 2000): 1708

"Religosity and remission of depression in medically ill older patients" Am J Pyschiatry 155, no 4 (April 1998) 536-42

"Religion and depression : a review of te literature" Twin Res 2, no. 2 (June 1999) 126-136

"Religion and Medicine II: Religion, mental health and related behaviors" Int J Pysch Med 31, no.1 (2001) 352-359

"Frequent attendance at religous services and mortality over 28 years" Am J Public Health 87, no. 6 (June 19997) 957-961

steveOrino

[philh 0]

But surely the key issue is the effects of religion on society as a whole. For example, the belief in the after life may make it easier to cope with death. But there is a price for society to pay for this widespread belief and that is others are less afraid to die and are more likely to fight for what they see as a holy cause. they are also more likely to kill if they believe they are saving others from hell.

Here's a little list I found thhat shows religion is at least partly responsible for many of the current conflicts in the world. This of course doenst include historical ones.

Afghanistan:Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues.

Bosnia: Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers.
Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life.
Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Iraq Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily degenerating.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Major battle in Lebanon during mid-2006. No resolution appears possible.
Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks.
Philippines Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details
Russia,
Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7
South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. The situation in mid-2006 is degenerating.
Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants. 8
Thailand Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist. The army has seized power and has agreed to talks with the rebels.
Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. *
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year