How does this make sense?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Found this in the paper today....maybe I'm too ignorant to the ways of war....but isn't Israel an ally that shares technology with us? Why wouldn't we use a tested system right now? Why let more troops die? I haven't looked up where these points originate from, but why in my gut do I feel this is connected to a contract to supply the DoD with weapons?



News Item: American commanders in Iraq plead for a weapon to protect soldiers from rocket-propelled grenades.

News Item: Israel offers a weapon system, already deployed by the Israeli army, that intercepts rocket-propelled grenades with a 98 percent effectiveness rate.

News Item: Pentagon blocks testing of Israeli system, instead choosing a favored defense contractor to develop a similar system by 2011.

News Item: Two more American soldiers are killed in Iraq by rocket-propelled grenades in the year's first week

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Butters 0]

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News Item: Pentagon blocks testing of Israeli system, instead choosing a favored defense contractor to develop a similar system by 2011.

That is why.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

so, corporation contracts/money are more important than saving American troop lives today. That's got to give a nice warm fuzy feeling to our troops in Iraq right now and the possible 21K that may be going over there.

In my opinion, the Pentagon is a failure in providing for the troops.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[AggieDave 6]

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In my opinion, the Pentagon is a failure in providing for the troops.

You realize that the same sort of thing has happened in every single war starting with the Civil War. I'm not saying I agree with it, but its not isolated to this war, this administration or this day and age. Its been an on going problem for a LONG time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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In my opinion, the Pentagon is a failure in providing for the troops.

You realize that the same sort of thing has happened in every single war starting with the Civil War. I'm not saying I agree with it, but its not isolated to this war, this administration or this day and age. Its been an on going problem for a LONG time.

And people wonder why some are willing to take a court marshall over going to Iraq.

And people wonder why I would never trust the government enough to enlist.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[AggieDave 6]

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And people wonder why I would never trust the government enough to enlist.

Because of the Lincoln administration? Wow. Now that's keeping a chip on your shoulder.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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And people wonder why I would never trust the government enough to enlist.

Because of the Lincoln administration? Wow. Now that's keeping a chip on your shoulder.

Nice spin...looking to run for office someday Dave?

No, because of the status quo. Because its accepted to allow Americans to die in battle/war so others can profit. Because I could never trust/believe what the Commander is Chief is selling to me on why we are going to war.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[GQ_jumper 4]

Could you post a link that shows what the Israeli system is, I'm kind of interested into what they are talking about.

Also, RPG's aren't all that hard to defeat, people up high are just choosing the technically advanced expensive answer over the perfectly effective cheap one that looks really ugly but works.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Amazon 7]

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Because I could never trust/believe what the Commander is Chief is selling to me on why we are going to war.

Some of us learned first hand..... its VERY difficult for me to have the complete break with reality needed to listen to President George W. Bush and believe what he is saying.

[JohnRich 4]

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In my opinion, the Pentagon is a failure in providing for the troops.

In my opinion you are too quick to make a blanket condemnation without bothering to research the facts.

Here's some homework for you:

http://www.defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Israeli_RPG_Defense_System_Passes_Live_Fire_Test.html

I'm sure you'd be the first to complain about the collateral deaths from such a defense system in an urban environment, and then cry for court martials for the people who implemented such a system.

[AggieDave 6]

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No, because of the status quo. Because its accepted to allow Americans to die in battle/war so others can profit. Because I could never trust/believe what the Commander is Chief is selling to me on why we are going to war.

Now that's jaded.

So you don't trust the CinC regardless of who they are or were and what their affiliation is? Wouldn't the blame fall more to the military industrial complex and their entire purchasing program? How many pieces of equipment in the military's large warehouses did the president personally choose and approve? Even if they were former military, how many presidents know about every piece of equipment that the pentagon is looking for purchase and what they currently have?

Regardless of your arguements, the CinC is less to blame for this then the entire system. Does the president have the ability to change the system? Maybe. Does congress? Yes, most definately.

How many different congresses have come and gone since the Civil War? Quite a few. Has it changed? Nope. Why? Politicians are politicians and money walks. There is a lot of money changing hands, jobs for a politician's state, etc.

So do they have the power to change it? Yup. Will it be changed? If enough of a stink was raised and the right people were elected. Are the right people Republican or Democrates? Who knows, there's right people and the not right, that's regardless of party affiliation.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NCclimber 0]

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In my opinion, the Pentagon is a failure in providing for the troops.

You realize that the same sort of thing has happened in every single war starting with the Civil War. I'm not saying I agree with it, but its not isolated to this war, this administration or this day and age. Its been an on going problem for a LONG time.

Admittedly, my knowledge on this is limited. That said, it seems like the need for equipment support and our ability to provide it (by whatever means necessary) have played a distinct second fiddle to who gets which military contract.

I mean we regularly hear about soldiers not getting body armor and vets failing to get medical and financial aid after they return home.

Are these problems merely manifestations of the "information age", where molehills do take on mountainous proportions? Or are areas where our troups are getting short shrift as bad as they seem?

Considering how much money is being spent on this effort, I see no reason why our troups shouldn't be fully outfitted with the appropriate equipment. And no vet that served in Iraq or Afghanistan should be denied VA benefits.

[AggieDave 6]

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I see no reason why our troups shouldn't be fully outfitted with the appropriate equipment. And no vet that served in Iraq or Afghanistan should be denied VA benefits.

I do not disagree with you. I'm commenting more about the original poster's opinon that its all GWB's fault.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[masterrig 1]

War, is big business! Just another reason to get rid of the lobby system in this country. As long as the defense contractors are buying the politicians, there's no telling how long the 'war' will last. Look back at the Viet Nam mess. I hate to bring Viet Nam up as an example but, it did happen.


Chuck

[billvon 3,116]

> Just another reason to get rid of the lobby system in this country.

Agreed there. We have to close K street. The question is - how? To date the only way that seems to work is pass a lot of complex laws that say how much money you can contribute to a given campaign, but that prevents individual citizens who feel strongly from spending their money how they choose.

>Look back at the Viet Nam mess. I hate to bring Viet Nam up as
>an example but, it did happen.

Yep, and if anything good can come from it, perhaps it's learning from our mistakes there.

[masterrig 1]

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> Just another reason to get rid of the lobby system in this country.

Agreed there. We have to close K street. The question is - how? To date the only way that seems to work is pass a lot of complex laws that say how much money you can contribute to a given campaign, but that prevents individual citizens who feel strongly from spending their money how they choose.

>Look back at the Viet Nam mess. I hate to bring Viet Nam up as
>an example but, it did happen.

Yep, and if anything good can come from it, perhaps it's learning from our mistakes there.

_______________________________

The sad part of it is, getting any laws to stop the 'buy-offs' would just die. Why, would the bought-off politicians want it to stop. The older politicians 'get to' the younger politicians and make it all look so good... the cycle continues.
I really wish, mistakes would be learned from but, as long as the big money is there... why ruin a good thing. Seems to me if, the 'people' would stand-up and speak-out and really put the pressure on, some good, might be done.


Chuck

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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No, because of the status quo. Because its accepted to allow Americans to die in battle/war so others can profit. Because I could never trust/believe what the Commander is Chief is selling to me on why we are going to war.

Now that's jaded.

So you don't trust the CinC regardless of who they are or were and what their affiliation is? Wouldn't the blame fall more to the military industrial complex and their entire purchasing program? How many pieces of equipment in the military's large warehouses did the president personally choose and approve? Even if they were former military, how many presidents know about every piece of equipment that the pentagon is looking for purchase and what they currently have?

Regardless of your arguements, the CinC is less to blame for this then the entire system. Does the president have the ability to change the system? Maybe. Does congress? Yes, most definately.

How many different congresses have come and gone since the Civil War? Quite a few. Has it changed? Nope. Why? Politicians are politicians and money walks. There is a lot of money changing hands, jobs for a politician's state, etc.

So do they have the power to change it? Yup. Will it be changed? If enough of a stink was raised and the right people were elected. Are the right people Republican or Democrates? Who knows, there's right people and the not right, that's regardless of party affiliation.

Yes. Very jaded. I've learned the hard way not to turst in life, love and business. The more power a person has, the less I trust them.

Now that my personality flaw/POV is out there... it's a blanket statement that points the finger at the CinC because shit can and does roll uphill in Washington. It's an environment where this sort of thing has been going on for generations. It continues with handshakes, smiles, lunches, ill-spent lobby money, political friendships, etc. It won't ever change because there is too much greed and profit to be had. It doesn't matter how many die along the way.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[AggieDave 6]

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it's a blanket statement that points the finger at the CinC because shit can and does roll uphill in Washington. It's an environment where this sort of thing has been going on for generations. It continues with handshakes, smiles, lunches, ill-spent lobby money, political friendships, etc. It won't ever change because there is too much greed and profit to be had. It doesn't matter how many die along the way.

So to you, there has not been a single good president from Lincoln on? Not a single one that you thought did any good? See, that's not just jaded, that's oblivious to the bigger picture.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[masterrig 1]

The CinC's job, is not really a sole effort. He has a whole bunch of 'advisors' and bought-off politicians helping him. I think, the Cin C, needs to do some serious 'house cleaning'!


Chuck

[Amazon 7]

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He has a whole bunch of 'advisors' and bought-off politicians helping him. I think, the Cin C, needs to do some serious 'house cleaning'!

He is fiercly loyal to his "YES" Men...

the mere fact is that these same people cut their political teeth in the Nixon White House.. and it seems caught the same disease of PARANOIA that racked Nixons presidency.



http://www.thoughttheater.com/2006/05/george_bush_shades_of_richard.php

Both Nixon and Bush were driven to achieve success and both struggled in their early efforts although Nixon had a rather charmed childhood as an excellent student…he was an accomplished debater, and he had a much clearer set of goals. Both demonstrated erratic behavior that seemed to be characterized by periods of highs and lows.

Nixon's first political opponent, Jerry Voorhis, stated after being defeated in a campaign filled with attacks, "Mr. Nixon had to win. Nothing else would do at all. I had not yet grasped the idea that what was good for Richard Nixon must be good for the U.S." In contrast to George Bush, I don't recall reading that Nixon asserted his decisions were made with guidance from God. Nonetheless, both men demonstrated a stubborn certainty in the decisions they made despite evidence to the contrary.

Winning was important to both men and their early political careers were similarly checkered with hardball campaigns that often focused on attacking the other candidates. Nixon often accused his opponents of being sympathetic to communism and routinely cited the voting records of his opponent to make the assertion...despite often having cast many similar votes. I've previously written about the alliance of George Bush and Karl Rove that spans the bulk of Bush's political career. I'm convinced they are both driven to win and have the same attack instinct that does not hesitate to discredit the opponent. There are numerous examples that support this observation.

[masterrig 1]

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Quote

He has a whole bunch of 'advisors' and bought-off politicians helping him. I think, the Cin C, needs to do some serious 'house cleaning'!

He is fiercly loyal to his "YES" Men...

the mere fact is that these same people cut their political teeth in the Nixon White House.. and it seems caught the same disease of PARANOIA that racked Nixons presidency.



http://www.thoughttheater.com/2006/05/george_bush_shades_of_richard.php

Both Nixon and Bush were driven to achieve success and both struggled in their early efforts although Nixon had a rather charmed childhood as an excellent student…he was an accomplished debater, and he had a much clearer set of goals. Both demonstrated erratic behavior that seemed to be characterized by periods of highs and lows.

Nixon's first political opponent, Jerry Voorhis, stated after being defeated in a campaign filled with attacks, "Mr. Nixon had to win. Nothing else would do at all. I had not yet grasped the idea that what was good for Richard Nixon must be good for the U.S." In contrast to George Bush, I don't recall reading that Nixon asserted his decisions were made with guidance from God. Nonetheless, both men demonstrated a stubborn certainty in the decisions they made despite evidence to the contrary.

Winning was important to both men and their early political careers were similarly checkered with hardball campaigns that often focused on attacking the other candidates. Nixon often accused his opponents of being sympathetic to communism and routinely cited the voting records of his opponent to make the assertion...despite often having cast many similar votes. I've previously written about the alliance of George Bush and Karl Rove that spans the bulk of Bush's political career. I'm convinced they are both driven to win and have the same attack instinct that does not hesitate to discredit the opponent. There are numerous examples that support this observation.

______________________________

Wow! That, is interesting. I appreciate your post.


Chuck

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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it's a blanket statement that points the finger at the CinC because shit can and does roll uphill in Washington. It's an environment where this sort of thing has been going on for generations. It continues with handshakes, smiles, lunches, ill-spent lobby money, political friendships, etc. It won't ever change because there is too much greed and profit to be had. It doesn't matter how many die along the way.

So to you, there has not been a single good president from Lincoln on? Not a single one that you thought did any good? See, that's not just jaded, that's oblivious to the bigger picture.

I didn't say there wasn't a good president since then. I said it's a flawed environment that partially exists to give financial gains to a small exclusive group. There are too many helping that environment exist in the hopes they can become included. That doesn't meant that good choices and policy haven't happened.

This happens on the local side as well. For example: The main county hospital here has been forced to endure 17% sweeping cutbacks over the last year while the bureaucracy that controls it hasn't been impacted....and their salary negatively impacts the budget. So, while the fat cats in Chicago are getting paid, those on state run health programs need to wait 10 hours just to get their meds refilled in an understaffed hospital that refuses to allow overtime....it was a 7 hour wait before the cutbacks. A heart surgery patient was forced to wait three days for the meds recently despite the increased chance of infection and death.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

his happens on the local side as well. For example: The main county hospital here has been forced to endure 17% sweeping cutbacks over the last year while the bureaucracy that controls it hasn't been impacted....and their salary negatively impacts the budget. So, while the fat cats in Chicago are getting paid, those on state run health programs need to wait 10 hours just to get their meds refilled in an understaffed hospital that refuses to allow overtime....it was a 7 hour wait before the cutbacks. A heart surgery patient was forced to wait three days for the meds recently despite the increased chance of infection and death.

I'm not sure how this story relates to your previously plased blame with the CinC.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sundevil777 102]

What did Clinton do to get the troops the personal armor and vehicle armor for every humvee or truck? Why is it just Bush that gets condemned for it?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Amazon 7]

ah yes... Clinton did it first.

DUDE... remember now we are at war... Clinton just supported peace keeping missions.. DUH.... and THIS WAR was an OPTIONAL war to boot.perhaps they should have PLANNED a bit better.

.. Guess the Pentagon likes to spend the bucks on what.?. the BIG TICKET Items... not the things that make the troops that they relegate to idiotic patrol missions.safer.. KNOWING the outcome of most of them... Must keep to the schedule now... make sure you are on the road at the right time of day...

Reminds me of the crap that SAC dictated of bombing Hanoi.. with B-52's coming in in echelon.. one after the other and turning at the same place.. as dictated by the idiots back here in the US....gave the NVA gunners the perfect targets as they made that turn... want to guess how many were shot down??