S.C. Iraq solution think tank

[mnealtx 0]

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>OK, what about pulling the troops back and spraying a fine mist of
>LSD over Baghdad. and while were at it- over Washington too.

How do you know they haven't already done that? Might explain a few things . . .

Hmmmmm...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AFFI 0]

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OK, what about pulling the troops back and spraying a fine mist of LSD over Baghdad.

Finally, a good reason too go to Bagdad...

[Misternatural 0]

Friggin Geneva Convention. Is it really chem warfare if people just hallucinate for an extended time?


Think of the tricks that could be played during their "experience"

-aint that some freaky shit.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[vortexring 0]

Brilliant post - something certainly worth thinking about. I think to solve the problems we have to go into a bit more depth than looking a current issues in the country and their solutions.

The crux of the matter revolves around the cause of the invasion in the first place - because nothing will be properly resolved until this issue is dealt with.

I don't particularly like to come across as a typical conspiracy theorist this is the real issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4990302.stm

Oil producing nations trading their oil in anything other than dollars would have devastating effects on the American economy.

Here's a few more links on the subject:

http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve05/1215iran.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/conversations/Patten/patten06-con0.html
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3459&page=1

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Brilliant post - something certainly worth thinking about. I think to solve the problems we have to go into a bit more depth than looking a current issues in the country and their solutions.

The crux of the matter revolves around the cause of the invasion in the first place - because nothing will be properly resolved until this issue is dealt with.

I don't particularly like to come across as a typical conspiracy theorist this is the real issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4990302.stm

Oil producing nations trading their oil in anything other than dollars would have devastating effects on the American economy.

Here's a few more links on the subject:

http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve05/1215iran.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/conversations/Patten/patten06-con0.html
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3459&page=1[/url]

You Sir are correct!

Imagine what would happen if OIL was traded in Euros or the Won?

Imagine what will happen if the USA has no way to pay it's debts?

I guess some people can't fathom another world wide depression.

[vortexring 0]

I don't really know the possible outcomes.

It goes without saying the devastating effect this would have on America, and quite likely, the UK and Europe.

Disastrous.

Who would gain though?
Naturally 'enemies' of the USA and the West, in the shorter term. I suppose there are plenty of 'people' who wish to see America brought to her knees - but longer term it's more likely we'd all suffer.

I sometimes wonder why this issue isn't more widely reported.......

The international implications are overwhelming - and it's possible we're seeing the start of them all now.

Still, it's only a theory.......

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Misternatural 0]

Those are insightful articles for those who takes the time to read them.
In a nutshell:
ye who controls (not necessarily produces) oil- controls the future.


It is one of the reasons why it is wise to promote the production of alternative fuels and development of safe,non petroleum fuel sources, worldwide.

And for the devious viewers; Don't get any Ideas from here about dosing unsuspecting people with LSD.-thats cruel, trips can turn bad even when you are expecting them.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Misternatural 0]

I spent the morning watching Meet the press, Face the nation, and Fox news.

I focus on the Cheney interview;

I am convinced that this man is the driving force behind our foreign and domestic policy, that he is the writer, producer and director-Bush just does the acting.

He has no regard for the Congress, or Democracy in that he believes that his policy and that of the Bush administration is immune from criticism,or accountability.

He has brilliantly used "Terrorism" as the seasoning to cram otherwise totally un-palatable foreign policy down our throats.

Try this exercise the next time you hear Cheney talk;every time he uses the phrase "War on terror" replace the word "terror" with the word "Oil"- then it makes sense.

He dumbs down this complicated foreign policy for us by using the words "Winning" and "Victory" In Iraq, because this effectively is what he must think his electoral base can only understand. Frankly this tactic should be intensely insulting to ALL AMERICANS.

It's not just Cheney many politicians in Washington mimic this behavior because of the Caviat of Democracy which is; That you have to sell your ideas to, and get approval from the public in order to get re elected. Too bad for Mr. Cheney this isn't a dictatorship where the Govt can do whatever it wants in its own self interest.


He asks for an alternative plan to a surge;

Instead of "surge" how about "Surgery" to use a metaphor,
Iraq is a patient on life support. Should we go in there with blunt clevers and chop off infected parts. which will kill the patient ultimately. or treat the infection.

Here are some ideas;
To diminish an overt American military presence use a micro foreign policy approach of negotiation on a tribal level.To reduce sectarian reprisals.

Deploy a COVERT force of counter insurgency operatives who systematically use informants, incentives (call them bribes if you want),and specifically targeted propaganda to help isolate the insurgents.
(it worked in Afghanistan)

Focus on securing the borders and disrupting the insurgents supply chain (I realize this is the most difficult objective)

Systematically neutralize the insurgent strongholds with the militias (once they have incentive) and the Iraqi army BACKED if needed by COALITION forces.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[warpedskydiver 0]

Here are some ideas;
To diminish an overt American military presence use a micro foreign policy approach of negotiation on a tribal level.To reduce sectarian reprisals.

Deploy a COVERT force of counter insurgency operatives who systematically use informants, incentives (call them bribes if you want),and specifically targeted propaganda to help isolate the insurgents.
(it worked in Afghanistan)

Focus on securing the borders and disrupting the insurgents supply chain (I realize this is the most difficult objective)

Systematically neutralize the insurgent strongholds with the militias (once they have incentive) and the Iraqi army BACKED if needed by COALITION forces.

[Gawain 0]

I don't have any details, but someone I deeply trust told me to keep an eye on the news in the coming days, weeks and months.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[warpedskydiver 0]

Hmmm might be a theme going on here....

I was informed virtually the same thing.

Gee Max could it be?

One could only hope, it is what I think it is.

I have no details either, but it sounds serious enough.

[kallend 2,151]

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I don't have any details, but someone I deeply trust told me to keep an eye on the news in the coming days, weeks and months.

If I recall correctly, you also believed a "trusted" source that said Iraq had WMDs and pilotless planes that could rain terror on the US in 45 minutes

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't have any details, but someone I deeply trust told me to keep an eye on the news in the coming days, weeks and months.

If I recall correctly, you also believed a "trusted" source that said Iraq had WMDs and pilotless planes that could rain terror on the US in 45 minutes

You recall incorrectly.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Royd 0]

First stop the rhetoric about "Victory" it's not about that anymore & it just fuels the insurgency.The U.S. and coalition forces deposed a dictator and removed a brutal regime- be happy with that.

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Then a formal apology by Bush at the U.N. for brushing them aside through all this.

Just because you obviously despise Bush, you want him to apologize to one of the most corrupt, inept, and useless organizations on earth.

That's what I call a real patriot.

[billvon 3,120]

>The weak willed American and world public has no stomach for a
>proper counterinsurgency operation.

Exactly. Now Saddam Hussein - he knew how to handle insurgents.

An insurgent tries to assassinate the president? Arrest everyone, bulldoze the town, and execute everyone who might have been involved. Problem solved - unless you love murdering insurgents, that is!

An area that sees constant low-level attacks? Send in a few hundred thousand troops, destroy every village that harbors terrorists, and kill everyone associated with the terrorists. Again, problem solved - unless you think terrorists should get the same treatment we give honest american criminals.

The only unfortunate note is that the Iraqis just executed the one man who has proven he DOES have the stomach for the sort of ruthless counterinsurgency operation that works in Iraq.

[kallend 2,151]

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First stop the rhetoric about "Victory" it's not about that anymore & it just fuels the insurgency.The U.S. and coalition forces deposed a dictator and removed a brutal regime- be happy with that.

Quote

Then a formal apology by Bush at the U.N. for brushing them aside through all this.

Just because you obviously despise Bush, you want him to apologize to one of the most corrupt, inept, and useless organizations on earth.

I thought he suggested Bush apologize to the UN, not his own cabinet.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>The weak willed American and world public has no stomach for a
>proper counterinsurgency operation.

Exactly. Now Saddam Hussein - he knew how to handle insurgents.

An insurgent tries to assassinate the president? Arrest everyone, bulldoze the town, and execute everyone who might have been involved. Problem solved - unless you love murdering insurgents, that is!

An area that sees constant low-level attacks? Send in a few hundred thousand troops, destroy every village that harbors terrorists, and kill everyone associated with the terrorists. Again, problem solved - unless you think terrorists should get the same treatment we give honest american criminals.

The only unfortunate note is that the Iraqis just executed the one man who has proven he DOES have the stomach for the sort of ruthless counterinsurgency operation that works in Iraq.

What do you want me to say?...Oh that's right we aren't supposed to win.

I have another suggestion, why don't you explain the the rest of the class how to fight a counterinsurgency.

WITHOUT SEARCHING ON THE INTERNET FOR AN OPINION.

[Zenister 0]

the first step would be defining clear, acheiveable, measurable objectives to define what a "Win" is....

something we have YET to do...

Military force is rarely capable of achieving political objectives....

the current "plan" imo is to little to late... 500,000 at the START might have made a difference.. but ofc would not have allowed Bush to be reelected had he pushed for the force nessesary to accomplish the mission..

selling Iraq as a 'cake walk' and removing those who disagreed, was/is a mistake he still has not taken responsibility for..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

>The weak willed American and world public has no stomach for a
>proper counterinsurgency operation.

Exactly. Now Saddam Hussein - he knew how to handle insurgents.

An insurgent tries to assassinate the president? Arrest everyone, bulldoze the town, and execute everyone who might have been involved. Problem solved - unless you love murdering insurgents, that is!

An area that sees constant low-level attacks? Send in a few hundred thousand troops, destroy every village that harbors terrorists, and kill everyone associated with the terrorists. Again, problem solved - unless you think terrorists should get the same treatment we give honest american criminals.

The only unfortunate note is that the Iraqis just executed the one man who has proven he DOES have the stomach for the sort of ruthless counterinsurgency operation that works in Iraq.

What do you want me to say?...Oh that's right we aren't supposed to win.

.

Define "win.

Bush's definition has everything to do with saving his position in history and nothing to do with what's best for the Iraqis.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

A win would entail the militias being pacified, a stabilized democratic goverment that would allow the Iraqi people to prosper peacefully, and us getting the fuck out.

[Amazon 7]

Do you really believe that is possible now.. after all the missteps and stupidity that has been foisted on those people?


That would entail sitting down and NEGOTIATING in good faith.. and this administration has proven over and over its their way or the highway...

[warpedskydiver 0]

It will be very hard, but yes it can be done.

Just think of other wars in just the last 150 years, and what occurred afterwards, kind of amazing anyone recovered at all

[Misternatural 0]

>Just because you obviously despise Bush, you want him to apologize to one of the most corrupt, inept, and useless organizations on earth.

No in fact I don't despise Bush. Sadly I think he is one of the most steadfast presidents in history, He really believes in what he is doing and he is committed to it. Unfortunately I think he is misguided by the puppeteers that surround him. I think it is especially sad that we had a president who had so much power and opportunity to make so many positive changes but squandered them pursuing other peoples fucked up hidden agenda.
Thats the real tragedy.

My point about the U.N. was not to humiliate the Prez. but to rebuild what was lost in the coalition which we need to take a predominantly American face away from this turmoil.


let me add that I don't agree with his belief system, religion, or domestic policy lest I be labeled as a supporter.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Misternatural 0]

>The weak willed American and world public has no stomach for a proper counterinsurgency operation.


I think the public has no stomach for clips of torn and burned bodies dragged through the streets with intestines and livers collecting dirt as they trail behind bouncing down the road.

Don't you think it's odd that in this age of supercomputers the space age and advanced psychology that the U.S does not have the capability and trained personnel to infiltrate and get into the minds of these combatants, resulting in a relatively bloodless counterinsurgent operation. it's almost as though they WANT to have warfare in the Middle East as a reason to set up base near their oil fields.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[billvon 3,120]

>why don't you explain the the rest of the class how to fight a counterinsurgency.

I see two ways.

One is to "do what it takes" i.e. be as brutal as you need to be to force peace on a region. For details, see Saddam Hussein's regime.

Two is to remove the targets of the insurgents.