USA,who are you to tell people?

[rehmwa 2]

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Fortunately that's starting to change. The people of the US issued a pretty resounding vote of no-confidence in the last election. A lot of people are starting to think the Iraq war was a really bad idea, and that we should put a lot more effort into diplomacy than into killing. Will things change? I don't know, but at least people here are starting to wake up.

Are you saying that the euro-perspective on the country is tied just to the current administration and if it was a different admin then the US would be hailed as the wonderful examples of which the OP wishes we were?

I think that's pretty flawed, if we had Gore or Kerry I don't think the level of US bashing would be any less. It's less about what we do, rather than about the bias and false perceptions of the bashers.

Frankly, I blame John Wayne movies. Those, and the Ewoks.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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I think that's pretty flawed,

Who are YOU to say it's flawed?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think that's pretty flawed,

Who are YOU to say it's flawed?

I think you'd see it if you just open your mind just a teensy bit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,132]

>Are you saying that the euro-perspective on the country is tied just to
> the current administration and if it was a different admin then the
> US would be hailed as the wonderful examples of which the OP
> wishes we were?

Nope. She was encouraged by the election, and asked me if I thought it would change things. I told her I thought it would change things a little, but that the changes we've made so far are going to have a lot of momentum. The Iraq War isn't going to suddenly go away no matter who gets elected, and we're not going to 180 on our foreign policies just because we have someone new at the helm.

>if we had Gore or Kerry I don't think the level of US bashing would be any less.

Kerry - agreed.

Gore - disagree. I think that even if he had prosecuted the Iraq war (which is likely) he would have done a lot more planning ahead of time, and currently the UN would be trying to deal with the problems of Iraq instead of the US.

I once heard an opinion piece shortly after the 2000 election about the difference in the two candidates. Bush was seen as a leader who took swift and decisive action, whereas Gore was seen as a guy who thought about things forever and was much more likely to send a study group than a battalion to a problem area. I think there's some truth to that - and today we've seen the results of acting first and thinking later.

Think about it this way. If nothing else, having a democratic president and a republican house would result in far more bureaucratic stalemates. Less would get done overall. The less that gets done, the better - both for us and for our reputation around the world.

[piper17 1]

Stefan,

You're right on this one. I didn't care HOW Saddam died...only that he did die. It was way overdue.

If I had my way, he would have been shot during his capture and avoided a lot of crap that's taken place since.

Secondly, is German your first language? If it's not, YOU ARE WELCOME!

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[lawrocket 3]

The same could be said about any country and its people. I was getting ready to take a trip to Iran after the bar exam with a couple of my good friends from law school. We had it set for October, 2001, but events of a month prior left me pondering the wisdom of such a thing.

The Iranian people are wonderfully nice! They have no problem with Americans - only the government does.

Everybody does the same thing

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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>I think that even if he had prosecuted the Iraq war (which is likely) he would have done a lot more planning ahead of time, and currently the UN would be trying to deal with the problems of Iraq instead of the US.

You are tying the US bashfest with the Iraq war - therefore you ARE tying the bashfest to the current admin. You say "nope", then talk about the war...

and, you say with Kerry, it would be the same (in that same restricted context) which just means you are implying Kerry would have Bush's mess to deal with - so I'm also calling "partisan" on you with that reply in addition to simplifying the eurotude.

I wasn't restricting the comment to the war only - this has been going on a lot longer than just the last 6 years. My point is that war, or anything else, with anyone in charge, we'd still have the bash-fest. Though this is a good one to use to satisfy that wholesome bashing desire.

I agree with the mixed congress. All we are missing is the conservative judiciary, and the libertarian exec branch and we might just keep the erosion down....

Edit: But who am I to say that the war isn't the only reason the US gets griped about?

I do believe our Euro-friends that bash are likely in the minority, and most of them just do it because it's trendy and expected. Those that are really serious are likely also just a small and very vocal group like anyone that gets spun up on politics.

But that's just me, your mileage will vary

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[akarunway 1]

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Well?
Its a big Question many europeans are asking right now.

Are you a american look at your countrys pollitics and see if YOU think thats fair?

So what does i mean?

Well,first WE(inkluding my country) started a war in Iraq based on the "fact" that he had weappons of mass destruction,well he didnt but we got rid if that evil dictator right?
IF we as koalition had been fair(becourse we look as our selfs as so)we would have made sure that Sadam got his ponisment if a fair envioment..
I do understand why what happened did so,BUT it wasnt fair AND we made our self a bunch of fools..

Well another country builds neuclear energy,"HEY you aint allowed to do so" says US,we will take you to war if needed...

Oh back in US people find out that "the nations neuclear weappons" are out dated,so lets give our self a new system,we need to protect our selfs just in case..

Guys if you want to be the worlds police then rember that if you want people to follow certain rules then you has to follow them self!!!!

What your doing is heating up the war of terro...

Just my oppinion... i cant imagine what muslim peoples are thinking then

I am an american citizen and I agree w/ you. This country is also slowly becoming a police state not only they worlds police. I see rough times ahead

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 3,132]

>You are tying the US bashfest with the Iraq war . . .

The Iraq war is currently our most visible expression of foreign policy, and is quite literally having the largest direct effect on foreigners. There are a great many other factors involved - the norwegian in question said she was suprised we had a death penalty but seemed to be trying to outlaw abortion, for example. But war is a very big, brutal expression of foreign policy, and I'd expect it to dominate any discussion of foreign policy.

>My point is that war, or anything else, with anyone in charge, we'd still have the bash-fest.

I suspect it would be very different in character. It's one thing to think "that country does some stuff I disagree with" and quite another to think "that country does some stuff I disagree with, and is invading other countries to spread that stuff."

Edited to add -

This is all third hand. I'd encourage americans to talk to foreigners and get their own perspectives on how other countries see the US, rather than rely on opinions expressed here.

[Amazon 7]

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Guys if you want to be the worlds police then rember that if you want people to follow certain rules then you has to follow them self!!!!

Just remember ... WE ARE THE WORLD.... the USA is composed of people of EVERY ethnic group.. and people from Every country on this planet..

The world keeps expecting the USA to bail them out of the stupid shit they are in. For the last 100 years or more everytime Europe got in a war.. there we were pulling your asses out of numerous fires.

We are the stongest nation militarily on the planet.. YOU forced it on us.. we just wanted to be left alone.. BUT various groups or countries kept attacking us.. so PLEASE do not whine when we attack back.

Currently I wish we had better leadership.. but the world brought this on itself.. and our less educated and knee jerk reactionaries are more than willing to BRING IT ON. This is what they are doing... and will continue to do until those who are more moderate are willing to sit down and negotiate PEACE... and get rid of the extremists on both sides.. or we will have perpetual war.

[Faber 0]

Mate im not pointing any fingers on the dessision on why we went to war,we voted at our goverment aswell as you guys did. They are voted up to make dessisions on our behalf..

So (if we take Iraq) im as bad as any American.. I just whish that if WE as allied,and specially US as the big guy wants to spread out democrasy,then we better show some good manners so thouse we teach can see why we does so.. If not were no better than muslims whith bombs on theier bellys..

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Will things change? I don't know, but at least people here are starting to wake up.

which were my true intenssions whith my post It got people up the chairs thinking,good or bad is not to me to deside,i know what i want which pretty much is said in my posts..
I do hope people will wake up its the only way to stop the war of terro..
That war aint about dead bodyes or who is the biggest and strongest.. Only the smartest will win,at this point i guess were equal..

To win the war muslims need to see the benefits in democrasy and get used to that is we say we will help them we will do so..100% and not as of now..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[steveorino 7]

No, actually you did none of the sort. You only showed everyone will complain when it doesn't go your way. "Who are you to say?" "Why didn't you do something?" ad nauseum

My son (in Afghanistan) and son-in-law (in Irag) are fighting a lot of the guys I trained in the 70s.

Stuff comes full circle. When it hits the fan in your area (and it will again one day) I wonder who you will call?

steveOrino

[Faber 0]

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My son (in Afghanistan) and son-in-law (in Irag) are fighting a lot of the guys I trained in the 70s.

well good at them,i hope they make the RIGHT dessisions,showing the world what we want muslims to be..

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When it hits the fan in your area (and it will again one day) I wonder who you will call?

Not you for sure,i would like to bealive after you left aswell..

Hope your sons get home in the right pieces,that some sick muslims dont get them and show them arround in the circles your speaking about..(think twice,would you like your sons killed the way Sadam were incase they had to die?Or would it be ok by muslims to torture them as americans also toture muslims? i guess not

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You only showed everyone will complain when it doesn't go your way. "Who are you to say?" "Why didn't you do something?"

reread my posts dude,actualy im saying that things should have been done different,as you say things goes in cirkles,wonder why we hadnt any terro in Denmark yet even as were down there,you want to know why?Its called respect,we respect them they respect us..even in war..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[steveorino 7]

Truthfully, I'm having a hard time understanding your English and spelling. And I work with 6th & 7th graders; you'd think I'd be better at interpreting poor grammar.

I'm normally not too interested in debating foreign policies with those outside the USA. They have a skewed view of us as we do them I'm sure.

You speak two ways out of your mouth. You say, "reread my posts dude,actualy im saying that things should have been done different" but your initial post said something entirely different. Again, you don't get it!

However, I do take exception of the cavaliar way you speak of my kid's sacrifice. I'd say more, but I'd probably get banned.

steveOrino

[Amazon 7]

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I wonder who you will call?

GhostBusters????

[unformed 0]

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I wonder who you will call?

GhostBusters????

Chuck Norris.

This ad space for sale.

[Gawain 0]

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so you want us to step in when it's for something YOU think is good, and stay the fuck out, otherwise.... got it.

NO,i ask YOU to act the way you ask people outside to act..

And how is that? You want us to continue to provide more public and private aid than the rest of the civilized world combined? Or, do you want us to stop meddling?

You know, the US has tried the isolated, detached, and "friendly" method of staying out of the way. Not once, not twice, but at least three times. Each time we got burned: The Zimmerman Letter, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11.

It would be great if everything could be peaches and cream, but it's not. Nor will it be while the rest of the world watches (and does nothing) a civilization in the middle east decline into ruin. There are arguably better causes in Africa, but nations in that continent know what could happen. Ethiopia unilaterally invaded Somalia. Where's your contempt for them?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SpeedRacer 1]

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and 9/11.

um, wait a minute. we were not isolated & detached prior to 9/11.

We in fact had over 100,000 troops in Saudi Arabia, the land of Mecca and Medina.
(that's why OBL & Co. kept attacking us in the 90s & 9/11/01)

If we were truly isolated & detached, we would get the fuck out of that whole hornets nest.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Gawain 0]

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Guys if you want to be the worlds police then rember that if you want people to follow certain rules then you has to follow them self!!!!

Just remember ... WE ARE THE WORLD.... the USA is composed of people of EVERY ethnic group.. and people from Every country on this planet..

The world keeps expecting the USA to bail them out of the stupid shit they are in. For the last 100 years or more everytime Europe got in a war.. there we were pulling your asses out of numerous fires.

We are the stongest nation militarily on the planet.. YOU forced it on us.. we just wanted to be left alone.. BUT various groups or countries kept attacking us.. so PLEASE do not whine when we attack back.

Currently I wish we had better leadership.. but the world brought this on itself.. and our less educated and knee jerk reactionaries are more than willing to BRING IT ON. This is what they are doing... and will continue to do until those who are more moderate are willing to sit down and negotiate PEACE... and get rid of the extremists on both sides.. or we will have perpetual war.

You GO GIRL!!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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You really shouldn't invade sovereign nations with bogus reasons. but, if you do decide to dot hat, you may want to actually have a plan and do a half decent job.

How many times must I remind you that Iraq surrendered its sovereignty in 1991? Being a loser in war sucks. Esp when you started it.

[Gawain 0]

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We in fact had over 100,000 troops in Saudi Arabia, the land of Mecca and Medina.
(that's why OBL & Co. kept attacking us in the 90s & 9/11/01)

That is incorrect. OBL and his gang started targeting us because of Operations Desert Shield/Storm, after his offer to protect the Kingdom was rejected.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SpeedRacer 1]

it was both.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Amazon 7]

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You GO GIRL!!

Gee I think you like my take on it

[NCclimber 0]

I find it interesting that all the anti-American rhetoric we are now hearing from Europeans was virtually non-existent before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Fifty years of US "occupation" throughout eastern Europe, making sure the Russians didn't expand westward, doesn't seem to count for Jack Squat.

Now, it's - What have you done for me lately???

[kelpdiver 2]

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I once heard an opinion piece shortly after the 2000 election about the difference in the two candidates. Bush was seen as a leader who took swift and decisive action, whereas Gore was seen as a guy who thought about things forever and was much more likely to send a study group than a battalion to a problem area. I think there's some truth to that - and today we've seen the results of acting first and thinking later.

And we've also seen the results of thinking first and acting never - the Clinton Administratrion's response to increasing attacks from Osama bin Laden.

Usually non action is preferably to panicked overreaction. But eventually you need to do something about it. Bush's response has reduced al Queda to making idle threats against the US. If we had just left Iraq with Hussein, it would have been with very limited casualties too.