Officer to be Court Martialled for refusing to go to Iraq

[Lucky... 0]

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs19056

Tell me what ya think.

[Gawain 0]

He has turned his back on his men whom he trained with, built trust with, and was supposed to lead in the combat zone.

He is also a turn-coat. Kevin Sites quotes him from past interviews/speeches whatever. This officer clearly is not walking the talk. He's also simply afraid to do his job in my opinion.

His claims of receiving private support from other soldiers is something I find very difficult to believe. He left his men. There is no honor or integrity in that. There is no loyalty, dedication or professionalism.

If convicted a six-year potential sentence is not enough.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lucky... 0]

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He has turned his back on his men whom he trained with, built trust with, and was supposed to lead in the combat zone.

He is also a turn-coat. Kevin Sites quotes him from past interviews/speeches whatever. This officer clearly is not walking the talk. He's also simply afraid to do his job in my opinion.

His claims of receiving private support from other soldiers is something I find very difficult to believe. He left his men. There is no honor or integrity in that. There is no loyalty, dedication or professionalism.

If convicted a six-year potential sentence is not enough.

Let's take this to the extreme. If the orders were to go to fire on US citizens due to an uprising, would he be a traitor for not doing so?

IOW's, a Kent State scenario, would it be treason or any infraction to eventually have a conscious dissention, or are there no boundaries; follow orders uo to and including taking his own life via order? Where is the bar placed? No such thing as a lower bar - follow every order? Or can you pick and choose?

[matthewcline 0]

I agree with max on the LT's failing to fulfill his commitment to his men.

I also add that in reading the LT's comments his timing seams (to me) to be motivated by personal fear.

He states he was trying to volunteer for Iraq, when the Army had him in a unit slated to go, just a little later, then he started this whole thing when his unit was boarding the planes to go to iraq. He also admits the information he based his "decision" on was there already in the MSM.

Weather he is truthful about his reasons or not, his timing is suspect.

And now he is restricted at HOME, they transferred him to Hawaii (the Divisions HQ), so as he prepares for his defense he is getting to kick his feet up and chill in paradise, while the soldiers he abandoned are trying to do the DUTY they swore too (just like the LT did) with a brand new leader who they may or may not know.

But it is better he showed his coward stripes before he deployed and had his soldiers killed due to his actions or lack there of.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

Why toss apples in to the orange cart?

I agree that the ACTIVE and RESERVE forces have no business in a civil matter.

But we are not talking about that are we?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[willard 0]

Though I don't agree with his reasoning I do understand it. But that doesn't free him of the responsibilities he undertook when joining the Army. Regardless of whether or not the reasons behind overthrowing Hussein were real or falsified, the fact remains that our troops are there, they are there now, and they will be there until we figure out a way to get out of that screwed up mess without the whole country decaying into anarchy when we do leave.
That being said he has a duty to follow orders given to him unless those orders are illegal. He will have a VERY hard time proving that his orders are illegal.
I admire him for taking a stand, but his duty to his men, his unit, and his country outweigh any duty he may feel to his conscience.

Just my $0.02

[Gawain 0]

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Let's take this to the extreme. If the orders were to go to fire on US citizens due to an uprising, would he be a traitor for not doing so?

IOW's, a Kent State scenario, would it be treason or any infraction to eventually have a conscious dissention, or are there no boundaries; follow orders uo to and including taking his own life via order? Where is the bar placed? No such thing as a lower bar - follow every order? Or can you pick and choose?

Your extreme does not apply here. We aren't talking about domestic military action.

Either way, there is a process for officers and enlisted to protest orders. There is no mention that he officially attempted to protest the order or become a concientious objector.

If you served, you would know the difference between lawful commands and orders and unlawful commands and orders.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[AFFI 0]

Firing squad...

[Lucky... 0]

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Let's take this to the extreme. If the orders were to go to fire on US citizens due to an uprising, would he be a traitor for not doing so?

IOW's, a Kent State scenario, would it be treason or any infraction to eventually have a conscious dissention, or are there no boundaries; follow orders uo to and including taking his own life via order? Where is the bar placed? No such thing as a lower bar - follow every order? Or can you pick and choose?

Your extreme does not apply here. We aren't talking about domestic military action.

Either way, there is a process for officers and enlisted to protest orders. There is no mention that he officially attempted to protest the order or become a concientious objector.

If you served, you would know the difference between lawful commands and orders and unlawful commands and orders.

If I served? I did, not in time of war, but I did 1 hitch. All commands from superiors are to be followed, and questioned later if need be. This is why I don't like the military command; a superior can;t be wrong, just mistaken.

Again, I asked for the location of teh bar and you have refused to give me one. This is like the question I recently asked the forum about how many innocent people we can execute before it's too many - no answer.

Domenstic, foreign; who cares? Can the troops question a corrupt gov? No.

[Lucky... 0]

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Firing squad...

YES, let's shoot everything and then wonder why the world hates us...

[Gawain 0]

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If I served? I did, not in time of war, but I did 1 hitch.

That's right, I forgot you served with apparent contempt and hold no pride in your service.

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All commands from superiors are to be followed, and questioned later if need be. This is why I don't like the military command; a superior can;t be wrong, just mistaken.

If you'd actually say which branch and when you served, it would provide better perspective. Orders and plans get questioned all the time, especially at the mission level. That's here-and-now. Not wherever-you-were-then.

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Again, I asked for the location of teh bar and you have refused to give me one.

I did, I said that the military has a process to protest orders or become a ConObj. This guy isn't using it.

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Domenstic, foreign; who cares? Can the troops question a corrupt gov? No.

Yes, indeed. Is it worth turning your back on those who would depend on you? Is it worth not honoring your word? I say no.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lucky... 0]

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If I served? I did, not in time of war, but I did 1 hitch.

That's right, I forgot you served with apparent contempt and hold no pride in your service.

Quote

All commands from superiors are to be followed, and questioned later if need be. This is why I don't like the military command; a superior can;t be wrong, just mistaken.

If you'd actually say which branch and when you served, it would provide better perspective. Orders and plans get questioned all the time, especially at the mission level. That's here-and-now. Not wherever-you-were-then.

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Again, I asked for the location of teh bar and you have refused to give me one.

I did, I said that the military has a process to protest orders or become a ConObj. This guy isn't using it.

Quote

Domenstic, foreign; who cares? Can the troops question a corrupt gov? No.

Yes, indeed. Is it worth turning your back on those who would depend on you? Is it worth not honoring your word? I say no.

Quote

That's right, I forgot you served with apparent contempt and hold no pride in your service.

Some contempt, not all. No pride? When did I write that? My service committment and the discipline I took from that have resonated throughout my life. Furthermore, it was my sacrifice, I can behold it any way I want.

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If you'd actually say which branch and when you served, it would provide better perspective. Orders and plans get questioned all the time, especially at the mission level. That's here-and-now. Not wherever-you-were-then.

Air Force 80's, but it doesn't matter. Do you think it was so easy in the AF? Orders are orders, fail to follow them and find ur ass in trouble.

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I did, I said that the military has a process to protest orders or become a ConObj. This guy isn't using it.

You have to follwo orders and then dispute them later, there is no room to disobey orders now and talk about them later.

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Yes, indeed. Is it worth turning your back on those who would depend on you? Is it worth not honoring your word? I say no.

He wasn't over there and then decided to run off the battle field, he simply refused to go there and stayed on base so he couldn;t be charged with desertion.

Would you fire on US citizens in time of public revolt if ordered to or would you disobey? Pls answer that.

[mnealtx 0]

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If I served? I did, not in time of war, but I did 1 hitch. All commands from superiors are to be followed, and questioned later if need be. This is why I don't like the military command; a superior can;t be wrong, just mistaken.

Incorrect - an illegal order is an illegal order.

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Again, I asked for the location of teh bar and you have refused to give me one. This is like the question I recently asked the forum about how many innocent people we can execute before it's too many - no answer.

Ah, yes.. blame the soldiers again, eh? "You, Private! Go over and kill everyone in that market!" "Duh, Yes Sir!!"

Sickening.

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Domenstic, foreign; who cares? Can the troops question a corrupt gov? No.

UNPOPULAR orders != ILLEGAL orders, sorry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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That's right, I forgot you served with apparent contempt and hold no pride in your service.

Furthermore, it was my sacrifice, I can behold it any way I want.

You are correct.

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Air Force 80's, but it doesn't matter. Do you think it was so easy in the AF? Orders are orders, fail to follow them and find ur ass in trouble.

Easy in the Air Force? The other branches don't poke fun at you guys by calling it the "Chair-Force" for nothing. (don't get butt-hurt, it's genuine inter-branch ribbing here)

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I did, I said that the military has a process to protest orders or become a ConObj. This guy isn't using it.

You have to follwo orders and then dispute them later, there is no room to disobey orders now and talk about them later.

Incorrect. An illegal order is an illegal order. It gets disputed first.

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He wasn't over there and then decided to run off the battle field, he simply refused to go there and stayed on base so he couldn;t be charged with desertion.

He says he was trying to get assigned to units that were gearing up to go. Personally, I don't buy it.

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Would you fire on US citizens in time of public revolt if ordered to or would you disobey? Pls answer that.

Too open-ended a question. A public revold nowadays involves gun-fire, fire-bombs, etc. Taking those factors into account, if I was a part of that, and we came under fire, I would expect our ROE would allow us to protect ourselves.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

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Easy in the Air Force? The other branches don't poke fun at you guys by calling it the "Chair-Force" for nothing. Tongue (don't get butt-hurt, it's genuine inter-branch ribbing here)

That's as may be...but at least OUR tech manuals (AF vet, BTW) didn't have to have cartoons to be understood...

"I'm your M249 Squad Automatic Weapon! Keep me clean, or I may not work when you need me!"

(AF guy scratching head) "Well, duh... did they REALLY need to say that?"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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Easy in the Air Force? The other branches don't poke fun at you guys by calling it the "Chair-Force" for nothing. Tongue (don't get butt-hurt, it's genuine inter-branch ribbing here)

That's as may be...but at least OUR tech manuals (AF vet, BTW) didn't have to have cartoons to be understood...

"I'm your M249 Squad Automatic Weapon! Keep me clean, or I may not work when you need me!"

(AF guy scratching head) "Well, duh... did they REALLY need to say that?"

Fair enough...but at least us Infantrymen actually kept our weapons clean...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Easy in the Air Force? The other branches don't poke fun at you guys by calling it the "Chair-Force" for nothing. Tongue (don't get butt-hurt, it's genuine inter-branch ribbing here)

That's as may be...but at least OUR tech manuals (AF vet, BTW) didn't have to have cartoons to be understood...

"I'm your M249 Squad Automatic Weapon! Keep me clean, or I may not work when you need me!"

(AF guy scratching head) "Well, duh... did they REALLY need to say that?"

Fair enough...but at least us Infantrymen actually kept our weapons clean...

Man, if you could *SEE* some of these weapons over here.... saw one guy trying to clear his weapon and couldn't... charging handle was too rusty!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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Man, if you could *SEE* some of these weapons over here.... saw one guy trying to clear his weapon and couldn't... charging handle was too rusty!

Oh yeah, I've seen them, from M2 to M240B to M4...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[watchdog2 0]

I TOTALLY AGREE with what he is saying...BUT..and that's a BIG BUT...

He signed his name and took and Oath.

[NCclimber 0]

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That's right, I forgot you served with apparent contempt and hold no pride in your service.

Some contempt, not all. No pride? When did I write that? My service committment and the discipline I took from that have resonated throughout my life. Furthermore, it was my sacrifice, I can behold it any way I want.

It's interesting that you consider your voluntary service, that did not involve any combat, to be a sacrifice. Why/how was it a sacrifice?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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He signed his name and took and Oath.

Very true. He is breaking a legal document and will suffer because of that. I doubt there are few that will argue that point. Is it ethical or fair to those that serve with him to ask him to continue against his will? Is it fair or ethical of him to change his mind? I believe the answers to that will be drawn down the civilian/military lines.

I've never served, nor would I. My personality just wouldn't work in the military, that I know. But from talking to my brother, father and uncle that all served, I know that this is a subculture that has its own set of socially enforced rules. I doubt that many that fully served or are currently active would ever feel empathy for this guy. Just like I don't ever agree with dayblazers or those that send bounce tapes to the media.

So after reading this article and the one I posted, I started to wonder what is the point of these articles? Is it to encourage more insubordination within the ranks? Is it to get more civilians to believe that life in the military isn't as cheerful as the DoD wants us to believe? I think I need to look up more of these articles and try to find why they are reported. I imagine we would see less of these if the administration changed its POV on the war. So my initial guess is that the media is using these men, these stories, to generate more of an anti-Iraq feeling across the country.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,120]

>Ah, yes.. blame the soldiers again, eh? . . .Sickening.

Only attack I've seen on any soldiers so far is this line:

"he showed his coward stripes"

[mnealtx 0]

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>Ah, yes.. blame the soldiers again, eh? . . .Sickening.

Only attack I've seen on any soldiers so far is this line:

"he showed his coward stripes"

I was referring to his "how many innocent people we can execute" rhetoric, actually.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,120]

>I was referring to his "how many innocent people we can execute" rhetoric, actually.

I know. But the people "blaming soldiers" in this thread are Max, Mykel and Matt. That's not to say that it's not warranted in this case - but makes your "sickening" comment pretty silly.

[watchdog2 0]

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He signed his name and took and Oath.

Very true. He is breaking a legal document and will suffer because of that. I doubt there are few that will argue that point. Is it ethical or fair to those that serve with him to ask him to continue against his will? Is it fair or ethical of him to change his mind? I believe the answers to that will be drawn down the civilian/military lines.

I've never served, nor would I. My personality just wouldn't work in the military, that I know. But from talking to my brother, father and uncle that all served, I know that this is a subculture that has its own set of socially enforced rules. I doubt that many that fully served or are currently active would ever feel empathy for this guy. Just like I don't ever agree with dayblazers or those that send bounce tapes to the media.

So after reading this article and the one I posted, I started to wonder what is the point of these articles? Is it to encourage more insubordination within the ranks? Is it to get more civilians to believe that life in the military isn't as cheerful as the DoD wants us to believe? I think I need to look up more of these articles and try to find why they are reported. I imagine we would see less of these if the administration changed its POV on the war. So my initial guess is that the media is using these men, these stories, to generate more of an anti-Iraq feeling across the country.

There's a hidden purpose behind everything. Ever wonder why you hear all these stories about people in combat "just trying to survive"...and such? BOTH sides are caught in a system, a matrix of sorts. SAy I was on the beaches of Normandy during D-DAY, do I REALLY wanna go kill germans/other human beings?....But I have to...and THEY have to as well, or THEIR superior officers will shoot them and I'll get court marshaled. I know there are a few sick fucks out there in the military who love to kill, but the vast majority?? Come on!!!....

I could be wrong though, But I think this who world is manipulated in the cause/effect scenario. Manipulate something to happen (9/11), to get the desired support to get the JUSTIFICATION of an operation (IRAG and Afghanistan).

I could be wrong though. I HOPE I'm wrong.