Should women serve in combat?

[MikeForsythe 0]

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I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me.

You say you are not sexist but what you write says that you clearly are. Why are you separating standards for men and women? You should have said that the standards should be that anyone should be able to carry you not just women.

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There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist.

You are right, not a single one was sexist but several were.

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It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument.

But that is what you have done.

I find it interesting that in spite of your beliefs, women have a long history of serving as well as men in tactical situations. They serve in law enforcement, SWAT, SAR and military units around the world. Not all response call for a 215lb. response. Any good tactical unit leader will want a balance of personnel on their team so as to have the best tactical advantage.

And by the way, to show you that size does not matter when it comes to intimidation tell me how it is possible to put the fear of God on a room full of 215 lb. men simple by sending in a 75lb canine ahead of the point man? Yes that was a rhetorical question.

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Americans sleep soundly in their beds at night because rough men and women stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.

And to help you show that you are not sexist I corrected you sig line for you.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[Amazon 7]

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I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me.

SO basically you would never give a woman the chance.. based on that. to be a part of the team..Some of us can do the physical.... many of us thrive on the extra mental stress thrown in our paths...and can do the mental.. even the part about being singled out for even more bullshit from the guys because of our gender and our not being wanted there.

Face it... to exclude IS SEXIST....that is the bottom line...
Like I said in my very first post.. set ONE standard.....and live with it....Many women will not be able to hack the training....just as quite a few men who WANT to be there can not hack it. In the long run we would have a better and stronger military. Isnt that what is really important? Allowing those who want to live up to a patriotic ideal.. to serve in the capacity that they can BE ALL THEY CAN BE??

[Merkur 1]

I haven't read the whole thread, so this might be a repost.
there is an interesting book called "Men, Women & War: Do Women Belong in the Front Line?" by Martin van Creveld which covers exactly this question and comes to the result of "No".

There is no question, that you will find enough women to be able to perform the tasks necessary in front line combat as well as or better than men, who are currently serving in that exact "position".

However, when it comes to the performance of mixed gender units, this will decrease. Men generally (details in the book) behave different to a wounded female than to a wounded male. While this is not rational, it is a fact that cannot be ignored.

From my own years in an airborne unit, I have seen women entering the service for the first time and the sudden change in reaction/behavior of male soldiers. Not to mention the "internal fight" to be the chosen sex partner.
Again not rational but a fact that can have serious effects in combat situations.

M.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[Amazon 7]

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From my own years in an airborne unit, I have seen women entering the service for the first time and the sudden change in reaction/behavior of male soldiers. Not to mention the "internal fight" to be the chosen sex partner.
Again not rational but a fact that can have serious effects in combat situations.

When you got all of your training you learned many new things that went against human nature to perform your job under combat conditions. Your internal fight... can be trained for as well. No one knows how they are going to react to seeing the kinds of things seen on a battlefield until they are subjected to them...up close and very personal. Somehow I dont think most women are going to want to have sex in the middle of a friggin firefight.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

There are women who are currently deployed in infantry combat roles in Afghanistan (in Canada’s small but potent military) and there doesn’t seem to be an issue with these girls doing these difficult jobs. In fact recently one of the (typical brain dead reporters) was interviewing a girl (dressed in full combat gear) and he asked her about what she does when she has to go to the bathroom and her response was “we just find a spot and do it”. Of course we’re not talking about high maintenance princesses here people. Any woman who’s got the … you know what … to volunteer to join the infantry and be sent off to a war zone is not going to be a high maintenance drama queen. We should stop judging people based on historical stereo-types and accept them for who they are. If a woman has the physical and mental skills to be a combat soldier, let’s let them be who they want to be.

Plus let's just look at the women who participate in our sport of skydiving and BASE jumping. These are not your stereo-typical high maintenance drama queens. They are adventerous free spirited women looking for a little excitement in their lives. If we (men) can accept women into the skydiving/BASE jumping family, why can't we (men) accept women into volunteer combat military roles. Why all the hypocricy? Or are some men here still stuck in the sexist past of the 50s?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rehmwa 2]

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I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me.

SO basically you would never give a woman the chance.. based on that. to be a part of the team..

I read that comment as this issue can't be resolved until the qualification standards are tough enough to week out those that are "really" qualified, not the read of "never give a woman the chance".

As I read this, I still don't see you two disagreeing at all - as you are both arguing for the EXACT SAME THING - a single set of standards that qualify to the JOB.

The issue continues to be the qual testing, not the gender.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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You should have said that the standards should be that anyone should be able to carry you not just women

Hey Mike.. do you think I could carry him???

[mnealtx 0]

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Face it... to exclude IS SEXIST....that is the bottom line...
Like I said in my very first post.. set ONE standard.....and live with it....Many women will not be able to hack the training....just as quite a few men who WANT to be there can not hack it. In the long run we would have a better and stronger military. Isnt that what is really important? Allowing those who want to live up to a patriotic ideal.. to serve in the capacity that they can BE ALL THEY CAN BE??

Good post, Jeanne - a question for you:

Based on your experience and background, what do you feel the the psychological impact of front-line combat would be on female troops? Do you feel they would be affected more than the male troops are?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Based on your experience and background, what do you feel the the psychological impact of front-line combat would be on female troops? Do you feel they would be affected more than the male troops are?

Overall it depends on the individual. As Steve pointed out any woman volunteering for a font line combat position is probably not going to be high maintanence. In training, I have had male students do some really stupid things in the field that showed them not to have the common sence that god gave a gnat. I have had female students that also did some really stupid things in those training situations. MOST of the students did just fine and coped with the stress and situations we presented them with. No one knows how they will react when they get into a stress filled situation. All you can do is train for that and select for the qualities of physical and mental toughness required for a given MOS/AFSC. It all depends on the individual... but those who seem to think that women should be excluded just because of our gender and we are supposedly weaker physically and mentally.... forget who has been going thru childbirth since our species came to be.

[rehmwa 2]

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.... forget who has been going thru childbirth since our species came to be.

ahh, the childbirth gambit - very non-gender specific

I think that a qualification test for combat that includes giving birth may be considered by some to be a bit sexist.

But that's just my opinion.

I like your first sentence "Overall it depends on the individual."

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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ahh, the childbirth gambit - very non-gender specific

Its not crazy rehmwa.....it goes right to the point that women have and continue to deal with pain....blood...and sometimes death.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I have seen women in the BASE jumping environment show that they have a bigger set than some (not all) of their male counter parts. Don’t ever under-estimate the resolve of an individual regardless of their gender.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnealtx 0]

I appreciate the answer...thanks!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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I have seen women in the BASE jumping environment show that they have a bigger set than some (not all) of their male counter parts. Don’t ever under-estimate the resolve of an individual regardless of their gender.

I have always referred to that as bronze ovaries

[rehmwa 2]

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ahh, the childbirth gambit - very non-gender specific

Its not crazy rehmwa.....it goes right to the point that women have and continue to deal with pain....blood...and sometimes death.

and the implication that men don't deal with pain-blood-death is thus presented. humankind has dealt with it since the the beginning I suspect that men and women both deal with it to varying degrees and to claim that one gender has superiority over another in this area is counterproductive to your other very good points when on subject

I see attempts to keep this on track as a single set of quals for all and not continue to diverge to gender specific topics is failing.

I'd rather see a discussion about the tests today for combat qualification compared to what they should be, and not sit around discussing who has bigger balls and ovaries, but apparently that's impossible.

You can all enjoy a futile discussion about which gender is better in combat. I think the whole thing has turned completely sexist from both sides.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'd rather see a discussion about the tests today for combat qualification compared to what they should be, and not sit around discussing who has bigger balls and ovaries, but apparently that's impossible.

You can all enjoy a futile discussion about which gender is better in combat. I think the whole thing has turned completely sexist from both sides.

I sure as hell don’t want to get sucked into a “who’s better in combat” debate. I think it’s pretty obvious that the vast majority of combat soldiers always have been and likely will continue to be male. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn’t be stereo-typing. It’s bad enough that society as a whole does this. But I would like to think that we jumpers are beyond this since we groove to a different tune than the rest of lemmings do.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rehmwa 2]

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But I would like to think that we jumpers are beyond this since we groove to a different tune than the rest of lemmings do.

I'm not seeing it here. Wish I did. But there is hope -

Hidden in the shoulder chips and pokes, Jeanne had the most pure comment and if you take that and ignore all the rest, it pretty well sums up what we ALL agreed with in the first place - "All you can do is train for that and select for the qualities of physical and mental toughness required for a given MOS/AFSC. It all depends on the individual"

strangely enough, even with the full agreement, landmines keep getting thrown out. I guess just to try and make it interesting.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,111]

>Men generally (details in the book) behave different to a wounded
> female than to a wounded male. While this is not rational, it is a
> fact that cannot be ignored.

And some southerners might well react differently to a black soldier than to a white soldier, and a unit in Iraq might treat a US soldier from Tikrit differently than one from Iowa. But I don't think that should be a factor in whether or not to allow black soldiers into mostly white combat units. There are a great many prejudices out there, and a lot of external factors that might make a soldier treat another soldier differently - their age, sex, sexual orientation, skin color, accent etc. I think the ultimate deciding factor should be whether or not the soldier is qualified to do the job. If their gender/skin color/sexual orientation/nationality/accent affects someone else negatively, too bad. Having a strong adequately-staffed military is more important than such considerations.

[rehmwa 2]

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And some southerners might well react differently to a black soldier than to a white soldier, and a unit in Iraq might treat a US soldier from Tikrit differently than one from Iowa.

here's another example - though you state the point well in the text following the above bit, you still feel compelled to bring up unfounded stereotypes, this time on southerners and Iowans and Iraqis in a subject forum that is supposed to be about the individual and not a bunch of outdated stereotypes on groups.

As it is, it reads like Jeanne's where she notes that gender isn't important, then follows it with how tough women and how ignorant men are....

I read your post much different than I would if you'd have presented only this:

"a lot of external factors might make a soldier treat another soldier differently - their age, sex, sexual orientation, skin color, accent etc. I think the ultimate deciding factor should be whether or not the soldier is qualified to do the job. If their gender/skin color/sexual orientation/nationality/accent affects someone else negatively, (have training and expectations with that person that focuses respect on performance instead of subjective things and reinforce it equally with all of the staff and not just that one soldier). Having a strong adequately-staffed military is more important than such considerations. "

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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I read your post much different than I would if you'd have presented only this. As it is, it reads like Jeanne's where she notes that gender isn't important, then follows it with how tough women and how ignorant men are....

Uh I pointed out how individuals reacted to very stressfull training male and female gender had no bearing on it at all.

Male ignorance comes into play when they believe a woman cant possibly be as focused and as tough as a male counterpart in a given situation.. and there are a HELL of a lot of them out there. Personally I would love to be given the chance to prove that...even at my age.

[rehmwa 2]

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Personally I would love to be given the chance to prove that...even at my age.

I would love to see that too. You, as an individual would still kick butt.

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Male ignorance comes into play when they believe a woman cant possibly be

Every post you've made since just following the first really good one has a note like this.

I see it as this - "Ignorance comes into play when they believe a woman cant possibly be"... men aren't any more guilty of this than females are, I see a HELL of lot of females AND males that act and feel that way - it's even worse overseas (in the countries I've visited anyway). The issue is culture and expectations, and not just 'males' need the retraining.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,111]

> you still feel compelled to bring up unfounded stereotypes, this time
> on southerners and Iowans and Iraqis in a subject forum that is
> supposed to be about the individual and not a bunch of outdated
> stereotypes on groups.

Uh, that is exactly my point. There are a lot of outdated and unfounded stereotypes out there. But it doesn't matter why people have them - what matters is how well the individual soldier performs, no matter what other people's reactions to them are (or why they hold such prejudices.)

[Amazon 7]

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Every post you've made since just following the first really good one has a note like this.

I guess it comes from a lifetime of having to "PROVE" that I can do the job... in male dominated fields.. over and over and over and over..... while male counterparts are ASSUMED to be qualified without such proof.

[rehmwa 2]

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> Uh, that is exactly my point.)

well then, nice job.

(I think we make better progress by not perpetuating them, even in a 'for example' type of context)

you guys sure say "Uh" a lot. must be a west coast thing - you're all alike



So we worked out the stereotyping comment. How about the other bit where you note "if it affects them negatively, too bad"

do you think we make a culture change with conflictive reinforcement or is that just a flip comment? I'd think we use expectations in training to reinforce individual respect - retributive enforcement really has to be a last resort as it reinforces resentment and thus the stereotypes further......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I guess it comes from a lifetime of having to "PROVE" that I can do the job... in male dominated fields.. over and over and over and over..... while male counterparts are ASSUMED to be qualified without such proof.

We all set our own expectations on ourselves. But you won't ever have to prove anything extra to some of us unless it's something you're particularly proud of and want to demonstrate - (like very good skydiver hugs).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants