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Andy9o8

Should women serve in combat?

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But you won't ever have to prove anything extra to some of us unless it's something you're particularly proud of and want to demonstrate



Perhaps not to you, but to the collective, yes.

Do soldiers really fight to "preserve" our freedom. Perhaps.

Are women free to choose which jobs they would like to try to qualify for? No.

Do women have the same freedoms as men? No.

When will they get them? Perhaps when it's proven that they can do the jobs.

So do we have to prove anything? Yes.
Owned by Remi #?

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Perhaps not to you, but to the collective, yes.



I'm the only person I have any control over - and by lumping anyone into some perception of a 'collective' does them more injustice than the generalization will ever help you. But I'll get over it, I have no control over you.

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So do we have to prove anything?



'you' only have to prove things to yourself - no one else

'we'???? who's 'we'? what artificial group are associating yourself into?

It's not ignorance, or hiding one's head in the sand to be aware of the issues in the world yet do one's best to behave in a fashion that they don't matter anymore. It's setting positive expectations and a good example. My contribution (right or wrong) is to behave that way and to take exception when someone's chip is weighing too hard on their shoulders.

If you make this particular subject a "women's" issue instead of a qualification issue, then it will always turn into a gender problem.

In this specific thread, GQ and Amazon are right - gender blind, performance based standards only, and let only the best qualify. All other gender "issues" are merely logistics or PR problems that can be overcome or even leveraged to our advantage

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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And to help you show that you are not sexist I corrected you sig line for you.
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"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
-George Orwell

I just shortened it up a bit, but I guess quoting someone whose words inspired me is sexist. People claimed this hasn't turned into a pointless argument yet you are just picking and choosing the parts of my statements that you can twist to perpetuate your argument that I am a woman hater.
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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..... I am a woman hater.



SEE? you just admitted it. c'mon, post quotes don't lie


edit: sadly enough, had this post shown up as anything but the VERY NEXT POST, I would have deleted it because someone would use it to your detriment

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>you guys sure say "Uh" a lot. must be a west coast thing - you're all alike . . .

It's warm here so we're all sorta laid back. The "uh" gives us more time to think when talking to fast-thinking midwesterners.

>How about the other bit where you note "if it affects them negatively, too bad"

If it affects them negatively - that's not as important as having a strong and adequately staffed military. Sure, you could help em not be negatively affected, but that's a secondary issue. I'm not sure I know what "implementing a culture change with conflictive reinforcement" is, but if it works, that's great.

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>Sure, you could help em not be negatively affected, but that's a secondary issue. .



I read that as "too bad"

IMO, I suspect we could do both.

later, I'm getting behind in my real work.


edit: "implementing a culture change with conflictive reinforcement.. is, but if it works, that's great

it doesn't work and it's not great, but it seems to be the response of many of the self proclaimed "enlightened" sect.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>you guys sure say "Uh" a lot. must be a west coast thing - you're all alike . . .

It's warm here so we're all sorta laid back. The "uh" gives us more time to think when talking to fast-thinking midwesterners.

.



I thought you were a New Yorker.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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And some southerners might well react differently to a black soldier than to a white soldier,


Ummmm....that's offensive!!!!

"Southerners" should be capitalized, imho :P

linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
-George Orwell

I just shortened it up a bit, but I guess quoting someone whose words inspired me is sexist. People claimed this hasn't turned into a pointless argument yet you are just picking and choosing the parts of my statements that you can twist to perpetuate your argument that I am a woman hater.

So let me see if I understand, you changed one part, left the sexist part in and didn't change it when you were told it was sexist.......yeah, your sexist. And I never said that you were "a woman hater", I said you were sexist. To help you understand the meaning of sexist I have provided the definition from the dictionary (book with big words that tells you what they mean and how to spell them:P)below.

Definitions of sexist:

discriminatory on the basis of sex (usually said of men's attitude toward women)
male chauvinist: a man with a chauvinistic belief in the inferiority of women

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

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And to help you show that you are not sexist I corrected you sig line for you.
***

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
-George Orwell

I just shortened it up a bit, but I guess quoting someone whose words inspired me is sexist. People claimed this hasn't turned into a pointless argument yet you are just picking and choosing the parts of my statements that you can twist to perpetuate your argument that I am a woman hater.



I didn't see any of that in your posts. My take was that you posted honestly and sincerely based on your experiences. I don't agree with your conclusions but don't see the need to demonize you for sharing your feelings on the issue.

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Americans sleep soundly in their beds at night because rough men and women stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm. ;)
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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

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I didn't see any of that in your posts. My take was that you posted honestly and sincerely based on your experiences. I don't agree with your conclusions but don't see the need to demonize you for sharing your feelings on the issue.
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Thank you for making the effort to understand what I was trying to get across, and I apologize to everyone who was offended but I can't change what I believe just because it would make a few people happy. I guess we'll all just have to agree to disagree on this issue, take care everyone.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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I said you were sexist. To help you understand the meaning of sexist I have provided the definition from the dictionary (book with big words that tells you what they mean and how to spell them)below.

Definitions of sexist:

discriminatory on the basis of sex (usually said of men's attitude toward women)
male chauvinist: a man with a chauvinistic belief in the inferiority of women

Do you have a wife looking over your shoulder as you type this stuff?

I dare say that very few people, men or women are not sexist to some degree.

Have you ever heard of the girls night out. They want to do whatever it is that they do without any interference from men, probably because the presence of a man will put a serious damper on their party. That's sexist.

Oprah Winfrey's new school for girls in South Africa is sexist.

Fraternities and sororities are sexist.

The truth is that women get offended when we treat them as one of the boys.

"Shut the hell up. you've already said you 2,000 word quota for the day." Yea, that would really go over, wouldn't it?

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I dare say that very few people, men or women are not sexist to some degree.

I agree, but does that make it right?
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The truth is that women get offended when we treat them as one of the boys.

As you or I would if women treated us as one of the girls which is my point. To the issue here "Should women serve in combat" why should there be any gender reference? My point is that there should just be a single non-gender standard.
Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

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...Somehow I don't think most women are going to want to have sex in the middle of a friggin firefight.



It's not about women wanting to have sex, it's about men wanting to impress them (independent of having any realistic chance at all).

It's kind of like at a DZ when a new female student shows up. Suddenly nearly all of the guys are somehow skygods and offer there help "for free" while the 5 male students "should read the SIM" to get answers to their questions.
Has the female student started skydiving to get sex? No.
Do the mentioned skygods think their help leads to sex? Most probably Yes.


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Your internal fight... can be trained for as well. .


1) According to the quoted book - no army so far has managed to train that in an effective way.
2) According to my personal experience with 18-22 year old "wow-look at me I'm airborne!"-men I must say: No.
Unless probably, you do nothing else than training to behave well. Which isn't quite what you want from a front line combat unit. For them to be effective you want them to be (at least a bit) aggressive.

The only way, from my opinion, to solve this problem a bit, would be to have approx. an equal ratio. But even in the U.S., having the highest percentage of female soldier (in '02),it was just about 15%.
vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

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I dare say that very few people, men or women are not sexist to some degree.

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I agree, but does that make it right?

It's natural.

Sexist has become one of those pc dirty words.

The problem is that men don't mind women being women. They kind of like it.

Women only want a man to be a man when the tire needs to be changed. The rest of the time they are trying to change him into something he is not.

As for women in combat, regardless of the sexual attraction to any given female, I would still have a tendency to think of them as a little sister, regardless of their skill. Injury or death can come in an instant, and it is our inate instinct to watch out for them.

As for their ability to do the job, if they can make the grade without adjusting the requirements, I say, go for it.

I do believe that there will be a societal backlash in a few years when some of these women start dealing with post traumatic stress.

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I don't agree with your conclusions but don't see the need to demonize you for sharing your feelings on the issue.



nicely said, apparently not everyone agrees with you and will resort to direct PAs

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Women only want a man to be a man when the tire needs to be changed. The rest of the time they are trying to change him into something he is not.

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You've obviously been married, I see.

Once upon a time, and only once upon a time. Some of us learn from our mistakes.

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>It's not about women wanting to have sex, it's about men wanting to impress them.

Yes, sometimes that happens. And when you get a bunch of alpha males together, you get a lot of ego-based crap that could be just as detrimental. Both are solvable issues; the military just has more experience with the male-centric problems. Time to learn a little more.

A recent JCS said this about gays, but I think it applies to women as well:
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I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces. Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.
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Women only want a man to be a man when the tire needs to be changed. The rest of the time they are trying to change him into something he is not.

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You've obviously been married, I see.

Once upon a time, and only once upon a time. Some of us learn from our mistakes.



...and some become thin shells of a human being, filled with bitterness, hatred and a keen desire to denegrate women.


It's kind of hard to tell. Which one are you? :)
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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

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You've obviously been married, I see.

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Once upon a time, and only once upon a time. Some of us learn from our mistakes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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...and some become thin shells of a human being, filled with bitterness, hatred and a keen desire to denegrate women.


It's kind of hard to tell. Which one are you?

I only see one choice there.

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Actually I am against it. At least in front line units like the Infantry. Women simply aren't built for it. Can they shoot? Yes no doubt there are some fantastic female shooters, can they kill? Without a doubt. Would they degrade the fighting effectivness of infantry unit? Without a doubt. If it came to hand to hand fighting they wouldn't stand a chance either.




That's my opinion. Howev er, this debate has gotten pretty silly. Long gone are the days of "The Front." Warfare just doesn't work like that anymore. There are FEW military forces on the planet that could cause the US Military to even slow down much less stop. That means we can occupy damn near anywhere we want. Which means the notion of front lines and rear areas disappears. Like you have in Iraq. As soon as you leave a gate from the IZ or any FOB you are on the "Front Lines." So women WILL serve there. We just need to keep them in "support" jobs.

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Actually I am against it. At least in front line units like the Infantry. Women simply aren't built for it. Can they shoot? Yes no doubt there are some fantastic female shooters, can they kill? Without a doubt. Would they degrade the fighting effectivness of infantry unit? Without a doubt. If it came to hand to hand fighting they wouldn't stand a chance either.




That's my opinion. Howev er, this debate has gotten pretty silly. Long gone are the days of "The Front." Warfare just doesn't work like that anymore. There are FEW military forces on the planet that could cause the US Military to even slow down much less stop. That means we can occupy damn near anywhere we want. Which means the notion of front lines and rear areas disappears. Like you have in Iraq. As soon as you leave a gate from the IZ or any FOB you are on the "Front Lines." So women WILL serve there. We just need to keep them in "support" jobs.



"WE"??? Dude. Like it or not (and I'm sure 'we' can mark you up for the 'not' category) cultures that create people with such commonly held illusions are slowly and steadily changing. Your years of beating your chest swinging your dick are coming to a close. You can hang with your illusions, or you can grow.

The former will lead you to eventually viewed as a sad anachronism. The latter, while difficult, will open doors into a better world for you and all of 'us'.
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

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*** .... Which means the notion of front lines and rear areas disappears. Like you have in Iraq. As soon as you leave a gate from the IZ or any FOB you are on the "Front Lines." So women WILL serve there. We just need to keep them in "support" jobs.



"Support", eh? I wonder if combat aviators and pilots would consider themselves "support" or the families of the 62 women who have been killed in Iraq & Afghanistan?

Honestly & non-sarcastically, do you really not realize how condescending restriction to "support" jobs sounds?

Where do you see women in stability operations?

It is DoD policy that: "Stability operations are a core U.S. military mission that the Department of Defense shall be prepared to conduct and support. They shall be given priority comparable to combat operations and be explicitly addressed and integrated across all DoD activities including doctrine, organizations, training, education, exercises, materiel, leadership, personnel, facilities, and planning." DoD 3000.05

A major thrust of the 2006 Quadrennial Defense was "stability, security, transition, and reconstruction."

__________

The DoD is moving forward (even if some don't like it). While very, very far from combat, my experience has been that the overwhelming majority of the military officers (including GOs) and SESs recognize the value of women service members and civilians, in more than "support" roles.

There are still are occasional problems (or troglodytes, as an O-6 colleague calls them) - just the other day I had an O-3 address me as "Ms." & ask if I kept an O-6's calendar [:/]:o; before I could even respond, the 3-star "corrected" him (to put it diplomatically). My leadership and strategic abilities are valued (not "support" skills).

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

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