GQ_jumper 4 #101 January 2, 2007 The size and intimidation factor I don't think is even valid. The toughest man I know is about the third my size and if I didn't know him I would abolsutely doubt he could do anything to harm me.....many have made that same mistake. Quote This shows that you didn't even read my post, rather you have an assumption in your head about what I will say and twist anything I write to match that assumption. I was speaking about being so intimidating that you inspire people to not put up a fight, I have rolled through so many people downrange without ever firing a shot at them, and the biggest reason was because they were too scared to fight. One of my buddies ran into a room screamed at the guy we were after and he was so scared he pissed himself and fainted, my buddy is a 215 pound former bodybuilder and very intimidating. Had that guy not passed out who knows if he would have reached for a weapon, I'm actually glad we didn't have to find out.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #102 January 2, 2007 QuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #103 January 2, 2007 And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team Quote Actually I'm glad you brought this up bro, we have a team medic, I think he tips the scales around 160 soaking wet, this guy is a physical anomaly though, capable of carrying anyone on the team if he has to, not to mention the best damned medic I have ever had the pleasure of working with, he obviously has a bit of trouble when it comes to mixing it up with bigger guys though, but I'll be damned if he doesn't have heart, and still manages to scare a few people in the process I love that little Canadian, he's tied with Neal Houston for being my favorite CanadianHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #104 January 2, 2007 QuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #105 January 2, 2007 Make ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote This would have negative ramifications though, for both sexes, someone doesn't like the other person say you got touched inappropriately and away they go, people would be so worried about what they say it would make the work environmnet unfriendly. As I mentioned previously, one of the things that makes these units so cohesive is that the guys share a tight bond, that's not saying they can't bond with women, but the ones who volunteer for SF units and such are the classic "alpha male" types, they like to go into work and spend the day talking shit to their buddies, I can hang with the best of em when it comes to talking shit but every once in a while even I have to step out of the room and get some air because someone took it too far. This is one aspect where I will agree that the male ego comes into play, these guys thrive off of the "boys club" attitude and this is one of the things that makes us so tight at work, i wouldn't want anyone to come in that would break it up, we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #106 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well. I wonder what assumptions and stereotypes you two are basing that on. Maybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Or do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? (maybe that's a bad question ) Or only enlisted? Or only officers? I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #107 January 2, 2007 QuoteMake ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you. there are women that can easily deal with that and integrate - but they wouldn't be the ones complaining about it. Likely you've also seen men do the same, though. Still don't see a gender issue that can't be overcome...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #108 January 2, 2007 I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". Quote maybe it's all based on female ego'sHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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rehmwa 2 #102 January 2, 2007 QuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #103 January 2, 2007 And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team Quote Actually I'm glad you brought this up bro, we have a team medic, I think he tips the scales around 160 soaking wet, this guy is a physical anomaly though, capable of carrying anyone on the team if he has to, not to mention the best damned medic I have ever had the pleasure of working with, he obviously has a bit of trouble when it comes to mixing it up with bigger guys though, but I'll be damned if he doesn't have heart, and still manages to scare a few people in the process I love that little Canadian, he's tied with Neal Houston for being my favorite CanadianHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #104 January 2, 2007 QuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #105 January 2, 2007 Make ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote This would have negative ramifications though, for both sexes, someone doesn't like the other person say you got touched inappropriately and away they go, people would be so worried about what they say it would make the work environmnet unfriendly. As I mentioned previously, one of the things that makes these units so cohesive is that the guys share a tight bond, that's not saying they can't bond with women, but the ones who volunteer for SF units and such are the classic "alpha male" types, they like to go into work and spend the day talking shit to their buddies, I can hang with the best of em when it comes to talking shit but every once in a while even I have to step out of the room and get some air because someone took it too far. This is one aspect where I will agree that the male ego comes into play, these guys thrive off of the "boys club" attitude and this is one of the things that makes us so tight at work, i wouldn't want anyone to come in that would break it up, we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #106 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well. I wonder what assumptions and stereotypes you two are basing that on. Maybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Or do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? (maybe that's a bad question ) Or only enlisted? Or only officers? I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #107 January 2, 2007 QuoteMake ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you. there are women that can easily deal with that and integrate - but they wouldn't be the ones complaining about it. Likely you've also seen men do the same, though. Still don't see a gender issue that can't be overcome...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #108 January 2, 2007 I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". Quote maybe it's all based on female ego'sHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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labrys 0 #104 January 2, 2007 QuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #105 January 2, 2007 Make ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote This would have negative ramifications though, for both sexes, someone doesn't like the other person say you got touched inappropriately and away they go, people would be so worried about what they say it would make the work environmnet unfriendly. As I mentioned previously, one of the things that makes these units so cohesive is that the guys share a tight bond, that's not saying they can't bond with women, but the ones who volunteer for SF units and such are the classic "alpha male" types, they like to go into work and spend the day talking shit to their buddies, I can hang with the best of em when it comes to talking shit but every once in a while even I have to step out of the room and get some air because someone took it too far. This is one aspect where I will agree that the male ego comes into play, these guys thrive off of the "boys club" attitude and this is one of the things that makes us so tight at work, i wouldn't want anyone to come in that would break it up, we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #106 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well. I wonder what assumptions and stereotypes you two are basing that on. Maybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Or do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? (maybe that's a bad question ) Or only enlisted? Or only officers? I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #107 January 2, 2007 QuoteMake ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you. there are women that can easily deal with that and integrate - but they wouldn't be the ones complaining about it. Likely you've also seen men do the same, though. Still don't see a gender issue that can't be overcome...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #108 January 2, 2007 I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". Quote maybe it's all based on female ego'sHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rehmwa 2 #106 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe guys need to get on the game plan that the women who are there are there to serve their country as well... not be eye candy or a quickie. I think some guys do, but most don't. You worded that very well. I wonder what assumptions and stereotypes you two are basing that on. Maybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Or do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? (maybe that's a bad question ) Or only enlisted? Or only officers? I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #107 January 2, 2007 QuoteMake ANY kind of fraterization grounds for getting shipped immediately to the crappiest place on earth.Quote we have put guys off of the team simply because they had an attitude that didn't work out with the rest of the team, when you are this tight you ca't let anything come between you. there are women that can easily deal with that and integrate - but they wouldn't be the ones complaining about it. Likely you've also seen men do the same, though. Still don't see a gender issue that can't be overcome...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #108 January 2, 2007 I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". Quote maybe it's all based on female ego'sHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
GQ_jumper 4 #108 January 2, 2007 I'm really interested if you have a reasoned approach to that viewpoint or if it's just an "impression" or "feeling" or " assumption". Quote maybe it's all based on female ego'sHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Amazon 7 #109 January 2, 2007 QuoteOr do you just mean men in general and not just military men? So you feel the same about all men that skydive too? All you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #110 January 2, 2007 QuoteMaybe the one that only those that are stupid and can't get into college would go into the military? Oh hell no. I guess I should have qualified that remark with the information that I was basing it on personal experience from my time in the Navy, which is pretty ancient history. Some of the guys I worked with were comfy sharing a ship with women. Most treated us just the way Amazon characterized.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #111 January 2, 2007 QuoteAll you have to do is read these forums and the question just answered itself... but perhaps it goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment( not saying YOU do... so Bill can BACK OFF from a WARNING).. all the comments.. the little innuendo... its pervasive and constant. It was no different in the military Well put again.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #112 January 2, 2007 so the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. you saying that men and women are different and their attitudes reflect that. your assumption that the sexes are too sexist (and I infer both sexes, not just males in your assessment) just contradicts your goal in this debate I disagree - because I do think that if standards are met and if the standard reflect the duty well, then gender should be overcome the issue isn't REALLY about gender, it's about qualification standards. Which I thought, at least, you and I did agree on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #113 January 2, 2007 I saw it in the Navy too. (most of the 1990's - for perspective) But it was the exception, not the rule. I think it's not "well said" when she appends little snits like "pit goes right over your head because to you or others you agree with the sentiment". It's just as well said without the disservice of a personal jab - despite a weak disclaimer. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #114 January 2, 2007 Quoteso the "make me a sammich" brigade isn't too impressive, I agree with you. You don't have to imply that I'm and all men are too stupid just because I gave you a very tiny conflict - it didn't go 'over my head' at all. That's where the "some don't" act that way part comes in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #115 January 2, 2007 I gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I also gigged on GQ for the same reason. The qual tests are piss poor and also are different based on gender. The bar needs to be raised to reflect the duties and then set the same for all. That position doesn't care about female or male egos, perceived attitudes, or the ancient history of when we all served. It has to do with going forward and letting those serve that desire to serve but still have the ability to do it effectively. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #116 January 2, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. I didn't intend any gender superiority debate. My time in the Navy predates yours by 10 years. Maybe it was worse then, maybe the environment I was in had a particularly bad culture.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #117 January 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because the woman did enough pushups, situps, and runs fast enough to meet the fitness standards can she really throw me over my shoulder when I'm sometimes upwards of 230 with my kit on? That is my bigest reason, I have countless others which are all justified, and none of those reasons are along the lines of "well she just can't because she's a girl". In fact, none of this is gender based, it's better to keep the argument to the fact that the requirements are watered down. Shouldn't the qualification for physical fitness include picking up a 225 pound soldier (plus kit) and carrying him some specified distance. And, if you saw some 130 pound soldier do that during your qualification testing, wouldn't you be proud to have him OR her on your team (plus, if she got hurt, she'd be much easier to carry out than your heavy ass) pushups and situps are weak standards to qualify on. In USMC bootcamp they have the recruits sprint a good distance (cant remember exactly), pick up a "wounded" marine (fireman carry), grab both of their weapons, and sprint back. If anyone could not do it, they got dropped. When I had to do it I weighed in at 160 pounds. The DI volunteered me to take the biggest guy in our platoon who weighed in at 260 not including gear. For some reason I get the idea that the DI didn't like me and would have loved it if I got dropped. Anyhow I got it done and earned the DIs respect although I dont think he ever warmed up to me. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #118 January 3, 2007 QuoteI feel I did a good job of explaining who does or doesn't belong in certain roles I know you do, hun. I believe you to be sincere. QuoteI have countless others [reasons] which are all justified Within your socialization and belief system, there is no doubt they are. What it really comes down to is this is your belief system is a result of your socialization and greatly reinforced by your military training. You believe yourself (and your team) to be bad mutherfuckers (and perhaps you are). To accept that women can do your job devalues how you see yourself (and perhaps how you view women). The thing is, that senario only exists within a belief system that is archaic in both form and function.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #119 January 3, 2007 QuoteI gigged on you and Amazon because you turned this into a gender superiority discussion, or at least a bash on male mentality. I think that's bunk. Its not a question of gender superiority and I was not gigging you in particular....its just like race... when you are a member of the agrieved minority you notice it.. and those in the majority just blow it off as the other person being too"sensitive it was just a joke". In both cases its part of our society.. its a lack of respect. In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Think about this... and I have heard it personally hundreds if not thousands of times... what do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them... but we hear it.. and we take note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #120 January 3, 2007 They all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #121 January 3, 2007 QuoteThey all have to do with your ego if you accept that your ego development is a product of your socialization. Some people can learn and grow on their own, others (most) just slide by on what they've been fed. The traditional roles of men and women in our society exist for the benefit of some and the control of others. What it comes down to is this: You were socialized to believe and act in certain ways concerning gender difference and (sincerely, I believe) don't want a system familiar and comfortable to you to change. If you buy into those old tabula rasa theories, then it'd be that simple. I think most people in the social "sciences" have realized by now that human development is much more complex than a Skinner box. linz Howdy, again! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #122 January 3, 2007 :* linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #123 January 3, 2007 In GQ's case and other special forces units.. he brings up team co heasion as an excuse they are built on esprit de corps.. and being SPECIAL...duh.. so when all that macho chest thumping of how SPECIAL their group is because they can do something no one else could possibly do....all that macho doo doo goes right down the tube because a woman comes along and can do the same jump out of planes.. swim the 5 miles run the many many milkes with the heavy load on her back...etc.....pass the same quals the guys can both physically and mentally.... so does that make her any less special... or does it make them any less of a MAN??? Quote How about you go back and read some of my original posts in this thread, I said there are women out there who can physically do what men in direct combat roles can do, I took nothing away from the physical abilities of women who choose to push themselves to the same level as the men in combat arms jobs. I cited countless reasons for not wanting my team to become mixed gender, only one of those reasons being that I didn't feel the standards would reach a level that forced any woman who passed them to be able to carry me. There were many other reasons, and not a single one was sexist. It's sad that you had to come in and turn what was originally a very constructive conversation into a guys vs girls argument. Quotewhat do guys call each other when they cant hack.....I think the term is a PUSSY... I guess many men dont find that denigrating to women around them You say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kbordson 8 #124 January 3, 2007 QuoteYou say this like no woman ever says anything that degrades men, this goes both ways. True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #125 January 3, 2007 True.... but many of these replies in this thread, including yours, can be taken as VERY sexist. I'm not saying that they are or aren't correct... just that those post have come off as a chest thumping defense of the last bastion of man. When such blatantly sexist posts are made, it makes me quesiton the view on "equality" that some people have. Quote If I didn't mean what I said to have the best intentions of stating an honest opinion without degrading the opposite sex I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain my position. I understand you aren't aren't accusing me of this you are just saying how it can be construed as sexist, some people in here just seemed to want to pick a fight and perpetuate the stereotype that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals(now that I look at them my knuckles are cut, maybe I've been dragging them around too much, lighten up people), it's just sad that people can't take a second to step back and try to understand what a person is saying rather than looking at it through a filter of hate and only see negativity. I'm off to bed though, maybe a better way to voice my opinion will come to me in my sleep, take care everyone.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
