labrys 0 #51 December 28, 2006 QuoteAnd comparing making a skydive to signing your life over to uncle Sam for 8 years is invalid, sorry. I wasn't comparing making a skydive to joining the military, I was comparing the ability to read and understand a skydiving waiver to the ability to read and understand an enlistment contract. I don't really care of you're sorry, sorry.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #52 December 28, 2006 QuoteI think the major difference is an unsuccesful conclusion of the war (WW1&2) would have meant certain change for our countries to be under different rule. Not really. Some people could argue that radical Islam is a bigger threat than Hitler. QuoteNoone gives a fuck about Iraq anymore, it was exciting at first, we were going to make the place a great country. Now we are bored of it. The only updates we get on the news now is what the death count has been that day My point EXACTLY. There was a popular push for the invasion of Iraq. Polls stated that we should invade, Congress supported the use of force...ect. Then people grew tired of it; Like a child with a puppy, they really want one and then they fail to care and feed for it when it gets hard. This war is the same and it sickens me that people who supported the invasion are now angry at others who did what they wanted them to do. QuoteBack on topic: I agree with Tony, there must surely be other reservists who can be called up who haven't yet served an extension of their service or maybe even volunteer rejoiners. I think the guys done his bit, now his country should try to do their bit and see him out of harms way until his period of recall (or whatever its called) has expired. So you would be OK with calling up someone who is out as long as it is not this guy? Who gets to make that call? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #53 December 28, 2006 Quote You, it seems, want to excuse people for not being willing to uphold their part of the contract they signed. In this case - I think I do. Why? Because in the history of the modern US military we have never required our veterans to make so many combat tours - not Korea, not WWII, not Vietnam. The situation we have now is unprecendented, and as such, a reconsideration of our enlistment terms may be necessary. I always thought that this kind of duty MIGHT be necessary, in the case of world war, but that is not what we have here. The end result is going to be a decline in volunteer forces, and a return to the draft. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindercles 0 #54 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd comparing making a skydive to signing your life over to uncle Sam for 8 years is invalid, sorry. I wasn't comparing making a skydive to joining the military, I was comparing the ability to read and understand a skydiving waiver to the ability to read and understand an enlistment contract. Well, he's right on one thing: They're not the same. One is an 8 year contract, the other is valid in perpetuity. Yup, not a valid comparison at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #55 December 28, 2006 President GW Bush offered a war without end and the US voted him in again. Sounded good to many at the time I guess.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #56 December 28, 2006 QuoteI bet it was for something other than failure to report after 2 years of civilian life. Sure, but do you know that this same situation has not resulted in a dishonorable? QuoteAs far as I know, this sergeant was not responsible for the decisions that prompted his first two tours, much less this potential third. I'd say he's well within his rights to blame others for demanding that he again play the role of invader. Would you agree that he enlisted of his own free will? If so then he in fact was responsible for his being in the Army and that includes maybe going to war. He is not within his rights based on the contract he signed. For the record, I was also called up from the reserve (called IRR for Inactive Ready Reserve). So I don't have much pity on this guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #57 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd comparing making a skydive to signing your life over to uncle Sam for 8 years is invalid, sorry. I wasn't comparing making a skydive to joining the military, I was comparing the ability to read and understand a skydiving waiver to the ability to read and understand an enlistment contract. . I would argue that most 18 year olds do not fully understand or appreciate the risks or inherent dangers of making a skydive even after reading and signing the waiver. They may think they do, but they don't.. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #58 December 28, 2006 QuoteMy point EXACTLY. There was a popular push for the invasion of Iraq. Polls stated that we should invade, Congress supported the use of force...ect. Then people grew tired of it; Like a child with a puppy, they really want one and then they fail to care and feed for it when it gets hard. This war is the same and it sickens me that people who supported the invasion are now angry at others who did what they wanted them to do. Those people were told that Iraq had WMDs and intended to use them against the US. That doesn't appear to have been a particularly honest part of the sales pitch. If you were told the dryer you were buying was capable of also ironing and folding your clothes, wouldn't you be a little pissed off to get home and find out that wasn't true and was just a line from the salesman to get you to buy it? If I bought a puppy from a breeder on the east coast and when it arrived it looked suspiciously like a fucking kitten, I'd be a little pissed every time I went to the store to buy more kitten chow. Wouldn't you? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #59 December 28, 2006 QuoteIn this case - I think I do. Why? Because in the history of the modern US military we have never required our veterans to make so many combat tours - not Korea, not WWII, not Vietnam. The situation we have now is unprecendented, and as such, a reconsideration of our enlistment terms may be necessary. And I agree, but that does not change the fact he signed up to the *current* terms. I think a person should be held accountable to what they agree to do. This it seems is not a popular position today. Quote I always thought that this kind of duty MIGHT be necessary, in the case of world war, but that is not what we have here. The size of the war is not covered in the contract. They could call you up to stand around and look stupid in Utah if they felt like it. QuoteThe end result is going to be a decline in volunteer forces, and a return to the draft. Or an increase in the pay and benefits for those who do serve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #60 December 28, 2006 It didn't take to much knowledge or research to know that Iraq had no significant WMDs and was no threat to the US or UK. Millions of people over here including me knew that. That millions of people were that gulible is frightning. The fact that they continue to be is mind f**king unbelievable. Some people will belive anything their government tells them.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #61 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI bet it was for something other than failure to report after 2 years of civilian life. Sure, but do you know that this same situation has not resulted in a dishonorable? No I do not. It's just a gut feeling. QuoteQuoteAs far as I know, this sergeant was not responsible for the decisions that prompted his first two tours, much less this potential third. I'd say he's well within his rights to blame others for demanding that he again play the role of invader. Would you agree that he enlisted of his own free will? If so then he in fact was responsible for his being in the Army and that includes maybe going to war. He is not within his rights based on the contract he signed. For the record, I was also called up from the reserve (called IRR for Inactive Ready Reserve). So I don't have much pity on this guy. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think every American has the right to blame our leadership for our position in Iraq, *especially* our troops. I don't think the guy is particularly interested in your pity, but just out of curiousity, how many combat tours had you served when you got that call and was the call-up for another? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #62 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteSeveral. Got some into college via other creative methods once their loans were denied. Creative? Do you provide jobs or schooling? There is a difference. QuoteThe majority of the civilian world just doesn't care about it. Or any job that requires a clearance or background check. That includes banking, and any SIDA jobs. I've done recruitment for private accredited institutions over the years as well as pure IT recruitment. Some of my current clients include most of the major global banks, financial institutions, etc. If a company has been burned in the past via resume lies they will do the full background check. Most just keep your release on file and never use it unless a reason surfaces. It all depends on the HR SOPs. Even if they do, typical 'fears' relating to credit checks and discharges do not always equate to a denial of hire. Know why a recruiter asks for references and background checks? So they can get more names of people to call - who you know is my next phone call for creating business. I will admit that jobs that require clearance would be a major issue if you had a negative discharge from service. But most of those jobs are Gov't jobs anyhow._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #63 December 28, 2006 QuoteI would argue that most 18 year olds do not fully understand or appreciate the risks or inherent dangers of making a skydive even after reading and signing the waiver. They may think they do, but they don't.. That boils it down to nothing but opinion then, doesn't it? I've never met an average 18 year old who couldn't fully understand either contract. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you appear to have different experience...Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #64 December 28, 2006 QuoteSo you would be OK with calling up someone who is out as long as it is not this guy? Who gets to make that call? I think they should make better efforts to find servicemen who haven't contributed as much. By recalling the same person a number of times they are just causing him delay in getting on with his life. Hes trying to study and move on from military life and keeps getting pulled out. This is a welfare issue that I think should be of concern to people in the relevant departments. This is bad publicity and if they think they already have a recruitment problem, more stories like this aren't going to do them any favours. Maybe the fat cat sitting in the office shuffling his paperwork could take his place and realise then they will realise they are fucking with real peoples lives not just a service record. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #65 December 28, 2006 Quote And I agree, but that does not change the fact he signed up to the *current* terms. I think a person should be held accountable to what they agree to do. This it seems is not a popular position today. Ideally, I agree with the notion to hold people to a contract like this. Realistically, however, the circumstances are so different than any before encountered, and the possible sacrifie so great, that to require this level of service borders on inhumane. Sending men back into a hostile, hopeless environment, time after time after time, is just not right. Future enlistees will no doubt take current events and required committment into account in their enlistment decision. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #66 December 28, 2006 Quote I've never met an average 18 year old who couldn't fully understand either contract. ... Did you serve in the military? I doubt if more than 5% of the guys in boot camp with me fully understood the contract. Hell, the company commander couldn't even read. He always had one of the recruits do the reading. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #67 December 28, 2006 QuoteBack then, there was a ongoing genocide in one instance Some would say both. Quoteand a few countries invading whatever other countries they could in both instances. Some would say Iraq was contained. QuoteThere were obvious and valid reasons for going to war and sacrificing what was necessary to make the world a better place Some would say the same in BOTH cases. In fact Pres Ford said in an interview that he thought Saddam was an evil man that needed to be removed. He did say he would have tried other means and disagreed with the invasion being based on WMD's. "Saddam Hussein was an evil person and there was justification to get rid of him,"-Ford July 28, 2004 "I think Rumsfeld, Cheney and the president made a big mistake in justifying going into the war in Iraq. They put the emphasis on weapons of mass destruction.-Ford July 28, 2004 So lots of people thought that Saddam was evil. He commited Genocide, supported terrorists...ect. But the debate here is about the people of the two times. They fought for what they believed in, and didn't waiver, unlike todays generation who tires of a causes and feels no regret over starting something, and then bailing when they feel like it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #68 December 28, 2006 QuoteThose people were told that Iraq had WMDs and intended to use them against the US. That doesn't appear to have been a particularly honest part of the sales pitch. OK, but without proof to the contrary we didn't KNOW until after the invasion. Not to turn this into a debate about WMD's but the fact is that people supported it, now they bitch about it. The shine has worn off the new toy. To compare to WWII we didn't know the extent of the Genocide until we were in Germany. Sometimes mths later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #69 December 28, 2006 QuoteDid you serve in the military? I doubt if more than 5% of the guys in boot camp with me fully understood the contract. Hell, the company commander couldn't even read. He always had one of the recruits do the reading. Yes, I did. For almost 10 years. I'm also a GW veteran. The young people I served with inspired me. Edit to add: I'll expand on this. My dad's father served as a Merchant Marine in WWI and WWII. My dad served with the Marines in WWII, Korea, and did three tours with the Army in Viet Nam. My uncle served the Navy as a fighter pilot in Korea and Viet Nam. My dad's mother served as an Army nurse in WWII. My brother and I both served in the Navy. I was recalled to active duty to serve in Israel during GWI. I had just started a semester in college at the time. My ex-husband served 20 years in the Air Force and is also a GWI veteran. I was surrounded by the military in my youth. I've had many young friends in the military. I've known A LOT of 18 year old service members. I haven't met many who didn't understand their obligations.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #70 December 28, 2006 QuoteMost just keep your release on file and never use it unless a reason surfaces. It all depends on the HR SOPs. Even if they do, typical 'fears' relating to credit checks and discharges do not always equate to a denial of hire. So do you encourage people to lie if asked? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #71 December 28, 2006 Quotein the history of the modern US military we have never required our veterans to make so many combat tours - not Korea, not WWII, not Vietnam. My dad did 1 tour in Korea and 2 in Viet Nam. If they called his dilapidated 74 year old ass into service after being retired for 30+ years I am quite certain he would ask, how high? I have heard stories of individuals committing suicide because they could not go into combat duty during WW2 – I read it on the internet so it must be true. All this is neither here nor there but perhaps patriotism is not what is once was in this day and age of liberalism. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #72 December 28, 2006 QuoteIdeally, I agree with the notion to hold people to a contract like this. Realistically, however, the circumstances are so different than any before encountered, and the possible sacrifie so great, that to require this level of service borders on inhumane. Look it was written in black and white that you, me, and him enlisted for a period of 8 years. Any time not met "active" was to be spent in the IRR. And these circumstances are not "new". War is always inhumane. But he knew this could happen, and he signed up anyways. QuoteSending men back into a hostile, hopeless environment, time after time after time, is just not right. Based on? QuoteFuture enlistees will no doubt take current events and required committment into account in their enlistment decision. And they should Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #73 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuote18 yr old "children"? WTF? I know it may not have been what you intended to say. When has an adult of 18yrs of age ever been a "child"? 18 year olds, for the most part, are immature children. They have no advanced education, little life experience, and are not afforded all of the legal rights of adulthood in the USA. (drinking, gambling, etc) I'm glad the genius users of dz.com all read and understood every aspect of every legal contract and enlistment document they signed at the age of 18, but the fact is, a large portion of those who sign do not. And comparing making a skydive to signing your life over to uncle Sam for 8 years is invalid, sorry. TWO WORDS: Personal Responsibilty Guess what? Rob a bank @ 18yrs of age, go to jail. Get married @ 18yrs, don't go crying about your youth being lost. Go to war @ 18yrs of age: Try and survive, do your duty, and shut the fuck up. Skydive @ 18yrs : Sign the waiver and jump, if you live no biggie, if not, nobody forced you, you are an ADULT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #74 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteMost just keep your release on file and never use it unless a reason surfaces. It all depends on the HR SOPs. Even if they do, typical 'fears' relating to credit checks and discharges do not always equate to a denial of hire. So do you encourage people to lie if asked? Never. My clients mean more to me in the long run because they pay the bills. If I screw them I lose out on a lot of money. I do reference checks for everyone I recruit so I always know the basic truths. Besides, in my world you don't get to the experience level I am looking to hire by telling lies._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #75 December 28, 2006 Quoterecalling the same person a number of times they are just causing him delay in getting on with his life.Hes trying to study and move on from military life and keeps getting pulled out. They have only recalled him once. QuoteThis is a welfare issue that I think should be of concern to people in the relevant departments. Huh?!?!?!?! It is about a guy that signed up for 8 years being asked to actually do what he agreed to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
