"Deformer" (Not "Designer") Babies

[lawrocket 3]

I read an article in the paper today about prospective parents seeking to genetically engineer abnormalities with babies. Here's a link to the article, which was in the USA Today a few days ago.http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/genetics/2006-12-21-designer-disability_x.htm?csp=34. It focuses a lot the engineering of dwarf and deaf babies.

I honestly don't know what to think about this. This all comes down to normative values. Some things I don't have a problem with. Other things I DO have a problem with, i.e., engineering sickle cell (especially in places like the US with no real malaria problem), or other things like amelia of the legs.

This is a tricky, tricky, tricky issue...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Scoop 0]

This is so wrong. No parent has the right to 'design' any abnormality or defect (Which is what it is) into a child.

Can you imagine being a child and finding out you were purposefully fucked about with to be a dwarf or deaf. It would be awful.

If anyone did this they should have the child removed from their custody and put into a more suitable placement

I dont see how this can be done legally, would it not constitute a serious assault or other offence? Just because it happens prior to birth doesn't mean you havent inflicted harm on the child. Of course, if this was the case abortion would have to be looked at very differently too

[Butters 0]

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"You cannot tell me that I cannot have a child who's going to look like me," Reynolds said.

Selfish?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[NewGuy2005 53]

Further proof that the world has gone barking mad.

[lawrocket 3]

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No parent has the right to 'design' any abnormality or defect (Which is what it is) into a child.

Why not? Genetic counseling is a pretty big field now. There generally seems to be little difficulty (save for many on the religious right) with designing certain characteristics in children thought to be beneficial? Hell, sperm banks are catalogued with characteristics thought to be desirable.

I myself don't want my kids having the same problems with the sun that I have. I don't think it is merely happenstance that my wife is dark and beautiful.

What if the parent wanted to design an abnormally high intellect? What if the parent wanted to design a child who would be 6'5" but with the legs of a person 5'8" with the hopes of the boy growing up to be an offensive lineman?

Like it or not, these things happen. One person's monster is another person's love.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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It focuses a lot the engineering of dwarf and deaf babies.

There are two sides to this : 1) The baby didn't ask to be born and therefore deserves a normal life, not one based on a soapbox. 2) Who are you to say what normal is? Just because you feel that being short or lack hearing gimps you in the modern world doesn't mean that is the truth. This isn't about your comfort level, it's about theirs.

I don't have kids, nor do I want them but I would have figured a subculture that thrives on being the opposite of normal would have no issues with others wanting to be different in their own way. I must admit that my first reaction to this idea wasn't positive when it came up a few years ago when I was introduced to a few deaf couples. The topic came up on how most didn't want to have a talkie child, that we couldn't understand the beauty they find in silence and the bonds it creates.....but that isn't giving the entire conversation justice as the topic went on over a few dinners during the course of a few weeks. I came out of those discussions thinking that their child, if deaf, would be loved/cared for and thus better off than many other children in this world that can hear.

I take a 'hands-off' stance on this topic as I do when it comes to most that want to partner up (same sex, so called handicaped people, etc) for life and raise a family. As long as they are happy and don't abuse the children I'm ok with it.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,107]

>Other things I DO have a problem with, i.e., engineering sickle cell . . .

But, as you've mentioned, that might well save the life of a child born in a malarial area (which a lot still are.) One might imagine scenarios in which a given attribute might be engineered and considered a benefit:

-a family of jockeys in which smallness is engineered
-a family of basketball players in which tallness is engineered
-a child born into an area rife with starvation; engineering a slower metabolism and a tendency to put on weight might well save his live
-a child born in the US; engineering a faster metabolism and an inability to store much fat might well make him healthier in the long run
-darker skin in an area with a lot of skin cancer
-removing the ability to synthesize ALDH2 in a child in a family with a history of alcoholism
-removing extraordinary sensory abilities (like homozygous blue receptors) to help a child "fit in" better
-adding such extraordinary abilities in the hopes it will give the child an advantage

I can't see an advantage to deafness in any "normal" environment, but I also can't predict whether it will be an advantage in the future. (For an interesting perspective on this, read "persistence of vision" by David Brin.) Seems to be the sort of thing best left up to parents.

[NewGuy2005 53]

"If only my parents had me engineered to be deaf. They had the chance, but passed on it. I've missed out on so much because of their selfishness."

"I will never forgive them for this."

Do you think anyone in the future of the human race will ever say these words or any even remotely like them?

[Andy9o8 2]

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"If only my parents had me engineered to be deaf. They had the chance, but passed on it. I've missed out on so much because of their selfishness."

"I will never forgive them for this."

Do you think anyone in the future of the human race will ever say these words or any even remotely like them?

These words? Maybe not. Something remotely like them? Yes.
From having a deaf relative and knowing his deaf friends and their deaf relatives, I've come to learn just how militantly into "deaf pride" the deaf community is. I've heard (well, seen) a number of deaf people say that if given a choice, they'd hope their children would be born deaf rather than hearing. My understanding is that a similar dynamic exists among some people in the dwarf community. Not the exact same thing as your hypothetical speaker, but the attitude is similar.

[NewGuy2005 53]

No doubt. But do you think for a moment that anyone would wish it upon themselves?

[Royd 0]

What if the parent wanted to design an abnormally high intellect? What if the parent wanted to design a child who would be 6'5" but with the legs of a person 5'8" with the hopes of the boy growing up to be an offensive lineman?

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Like it or not, these things happen. One person's monster is another person's love.

Doesn't that tell the child that they are here for one purpose only? To fulfill the parent's fantasy.

[billvon 3,107]

>Doesn't that tell the child that they are here for one purpose only? To fulfill the parent's fantasy.

You could describe any child that way. A parent who hopes their child is healthy, intelligent, well adjusted, strong etc is indulging in a fantasy that may or may not be realized. But generally we support such fantasies.

[lawrocket 3]

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Doesn't that tell the child that they are here for one purpose only? To fulfill the parent's fantasy.

What kid HASN'T been the result of at least ONE parent's fantasy? Jeez - I've been laid twice in my life and have two kids to show for it. Fantasy fulfilled - now I've just got several hundred more once I figure out how to not get her pregnant.

In all seriousness, though, how many parents seek to guide a child? All parents try to guide children away from things. All parents think it would be nice for their kids to be something. All parents want to have pride in their kids.

My kids may become what I always hoped to be, but not if they don't want to. I'll try like hell to prevent them from being wastes of human lives. I'd like them to be my fantasies, and do my best to ensure that they do not become my nightmares.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 2]

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No doubt. But do you think for a moment that anyone would wish it upon themselves?

You need to ask this of several people who've been deaf their whole lives. Some of the answers might seem counter-intuitive to you.

[NewGuy2005 53]

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No doubt. But do you think for a moment that anyone would wish it upon themselves?

You need to ask this of several people who've been deaf their whole lives. Some of the answers might seem counter-intuitive to you.

I've no doubt that many would say they wouldn't change anything, but keep in mind that they would be saying this within a certain context. I.E., within the context of a lifetime of deafness, Deaf Activism, deaf friend and family networks, etc.

However, I bet there was some point earlier in their lives at which they wished they could hear. Do you really think they've spent their lives totally satisfied with being deaf?

[sundevil777 102]

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I would have figured a subculture that thrives on being the opposite of normal would have no issues with others wanting to be different in their own way.

But there is a difference. It is not the kids that are choosing to be different, it is the parents imposing it upon them. Some of these "differences" impose a high price, such as the multiple surgeries that many little people need. For this reason, I consider the parents on the TV show about the little family to be extremely selfish.

I suppose this sort of thing should not be illegal, but I wish that doctors would choose to not do it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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But there is a difference. It is not the kids that are choosing to be different, it is the parents imposing it upon them.

I'm going to be a PITA here - but that has been the case for every child ever born so far. By choosing your partner you are already preventing your offspring from having certain genetic traits by not choosing someone else to couple with. You are designing your child by choosing who you mate with.

Do you think then, we should prevent deaf couples or short-people from mating because there is a strong likelyhood that the kid will end up with the same un-normal life? The only thing the medical research is going to do is give them a larger likelyhood to secure this.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[dorbie 0]

The problem will be solved when the babies grow up and sue the everyone concerned into a financial crater.

[sundevil777 102]

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Do you think then, we should prevent deaf couples or short-people from mating because there is a strong likelyhood that the kid will end up with the same un-normal life?

I've already said that it should not be prohibited by law. I simply think that the rest of the public should not be afraid to criticize them and the scum doctors that help.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Darius11 12]

I think the human race needs to get a hold of them selves. We are getting so selfish that we want to play god.
Who is to assume that your child wants to be like you? Who is to say if you are a jockey your kid doesn’t want be a basketball player?

We are feeling more and more entitled to things that we should not be entitled too.
A child is not a sofa or a car you don’t get to choose the options you want them to come with. If you feel you should be entitled to choose the color of you children’s eyes and if you want him/her to be able to hear or not do us all a favor and blow your own head off and do not reproduce.
I don’t think we know the effects of playing god.

My worst fear is the end of individuality what is what makes us great. We all are different thank God for that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[lawrocket 3]

Now that I've had a day and night to think about it (yeah, I'm loser enough to spend my evenings thinking about shit like this) the thought hit me that there would be generational fads. Take a look at the hair of the 80's. jtval can look back at himself and say, "My God! I looked ridiculous."

Can you imagine it with kids? 100 years ago, Lillian Russell's rubenesque proportions were considered the ideal of beauty. 15 years ago, the waify proportions of Kate Moss and the "heroin chic" were hip. Thick, phat boo-TAYS have been a minor fad lately.

So, we can see a situation where, in the early 1990's, parents would breed their children to be tall and skinny to match the ideals of the day for "beauty," only to leave the children to deal witht he emotional trauma of the abuse they would face today (it may strike some of you as odd, but there are people who get picked on because they can't gain weight). Or, the kids with thick booties may find themselves being "ugly" in 15 years.

This genetic engineering may create a place where the diversity of characteristics may be bred out of existence. The genes for chubby people may be eliminated. Sure, that's taking things reductio ad absurdum, but hopefully you follow.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Darius11 12]

That’s is my fear.
People tend to think they know a lot more then they know. As you stated what we know changes by a minimum amount of time. Even the definitions of beauty and cool change so how dare would someone assume they know better.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[SpeedRacer 1]

if a couple wants a deaf or dwarf baby, they can adopt. Then they don't have to play God, and they can still be sure of getting what they want.

Speed Racer
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[Andy9o8 2]

Maybe I'm just delving into semantics, and this is a bit off-topic, but I think the term "playing God" is over-used. Virtually all of medical science can be labeled "playing God" if you take the idea to its logical extreme (and, in fact, some religions do).

[NCclimber 0]

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Maybe I'm just delving into semantics, and this is a bit off-topic, but I think the term "playing God" is over-used. Virtually all of medical science can be labeled "playing God" if you take the idea to its logical extreme (and, in fact, some religions do).

True. Technically, "all of medical science can be labeled "playing God", but I think term (mostly) applies to actions that are outside what is considered acceptable behavior by the mainstream of society.

I'd say it's a safe bet that genetically engineering babies is outside what is considerd acceptable.