dweeb 0 #1 December 26, 2006 I went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. 2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. Has anyone else gone through any bullshit like this before? I've got everything well documented and my employer is clearly breaking the law. Can anyone give me some experienced advice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #2 December 26, 2006 heh. expenses up front most private lawyers will say you have a case._________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #3 December 26, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. What did your sexual orientation have to do with the job that you were supposed to be performing? I don't go around saying,"I'm a hetrosexual, and I'm here to fix your house." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 December 26, 2006 Quote2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. As an attorney myself, I can tell you that that means those particular attorneys really think your ultimate chances of success are no better than mediocre. If they did think you had a very good chance, they'd front the expenses themselves. (That doesn't apply to every type of litigation, but it ususally does apply to employment discrimination litigation.) You see, technically "having a case", and real-world "having a case that's likely to win" are not always the same thing. I'm not going to give you legal advice; but you need to seek out(or continue to seek out) attorneys who specialize in employment discrimination law. If after several more consultations, you still can't find one who's willing to front the costs, that probably is an indication of your ultimate chances of success. Good luck. One more thing: DO NOT listen to advice, either on here or anywhere else, from anyone who is not an attorney. (Not even an HR professional or your friend who's had a similar case, etc.). You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #5 December 26, 2006 I take it you mean homo'phobic' behaviour as opposed to sexual harrasment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 December 27, 2006 Quote One more thing: DO NOT listen to advice, either on here or anywhere else, from anyone who is not an attorney. (Not even an HR professional or your friend who's had a similar case, etc.). You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. He consulted two attorneys who were more than happy to tell him he had a case if he spent money with them. So...if you want to know about snake oil, you wouldn't talk to anyone but snake oil salesmen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #7 December 27, 2006 I went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. Quote I agree that this is the wrong place to seek legal advice, but you did however make me wonder what exactly it was that was happening, could you give us a few more details on the whole situation? What exactly constituted the harassment in the first place, and when you returned what was it that made you feel you were looked upon worse than before?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydemon2 0 #8 December 27, 2006 Was your boss gay too and kept hitting on you?Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone! I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #9 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuote You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Have you EVER read the posts here people on here do stupid shit like that all the time, ALL the time You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #10 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuote One more thing: DO NOT listen to advice, either on here or anywhere else, from anyone who is not an attorney. (Not even an HR professional or your friend who's had a similar case, etc.). You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. He consulted two attorneys who were more than happy to tell him he had a case if he spent money with them. So...if you want to know about snake oil, you wouldn't talk to anyone but snake oil salesmen? That's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. A plaintiff's attorney's decision on whether or not to take a case, and if so, whether or not to front expenses, is often not a black-or-white decision, it depends upon the attorney's analysis of the clients' chances of success given the particular facts of the case and evidence available. There are many grey areas that can militate in either direction. Employment discrimination cases in particular are very often fraught with grey areas in this regard. Very few employment discrimination cases are clear-cut when all of the conflicting evidence is analyzed. To investigate and properly prepare such a case, considerable expenses must be spent on such things as expert witnesses and depositions. Like it or not, a law practice is a business just like any other business. Before a law firm makes a sizable investment on a case, it must analyze whether that investment is going to be recovered. A law firm that fails to do this will go out of business just like any other business that fails to prudently pre-evaluate whether or not to invest its capital and/or borrow money to invest into a project. Now, you can lawyer-bash all you want, but that's the simple reality of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #11 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Have you EVER read the posts here people on here do stupid shit like that all the time, ALL the time You're right. I see people seeking medical advice in here all the time. All I can say is, it makes me go . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 December 27, 2006 QuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. There is, of course, a lot of bad legal advice (more than good, I'm sure) out there from non lawyers. But that's true of almost anything. If you only look at the bad, you end up like Texas where Nolo Press books are banned. BTW, this summer when I needed an orthopedic surgeon, I came here and I got a MUCH better recommendation than I would have gotten otherwise, and the results were great. Per your comments here, you'd think that better information would be available from Stanford Hospital, but you'd be wrong. For the original poster, I can only suggest moving out to SF. Here your boss might be gay, and sexuality is to a large extent a non issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #13 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, it wasn't self-serving; but thank you for impeaching my motives. Believe it or not, I really have no interest in hogging the business for lawyers only. I've been in practice for over 20 years. I don't specialize in employment law cases in particular, but I've handled my share of them, including through jury trials and verdict. Employment discrimination cases are highly specialized, and can be pretty complex. General practitioners who have clients contact them on employment discrimination issues often consult with or refer the clients to employment attorneys for the same reason G.P. physicians refer patients with suspected thyroid ailments to endocrinologists: because a specialist is needed. A non-lawyer, if sufficiently well-trained and well-versed in employment law, might be able to tell someone whether the facts of his employment situation seem, at first blush, to fall within a certain category of discrimination. But that's only the beginning of the process; and if a non-lawyer tries to analyze the nuances, legal strategies, variables, contingencies and probabilities of success or failure at trial or on appeal given dozens of possible variables much beyond that, as well as the economic realities presented by that analysis, he's either going to find himself in over his head or just shooting from the hip, neither of which does a service to the client. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #14 December 28, 2006 Oh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #15 December 28, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. 2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. Has anyone else gone through any bullshit like this before? I've got everything well documented and my employer is clearly breaking the law. Can anyone give me some experienced advice? Do you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #16 December 28, 2006 QuoteDo you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? In the first place, that depends on his damages. If he's gone directly from one job to another with minimum loss of wages, maybe he hasn't suffered much direct monetary loss, yet. If he's still unemployed, or there was a lengthy gap, the actual monetary loss already incurred may be substantial. If that loss was caused by the deliberately wrongful and illegal acts of others, then he has every legal, moral and ethical right to recover that loss. That being said, the laws against discrimination, which exist not only at the Federal level but separately in every state, exist for a reason: because Congress and 50 state legislatures have decided to reflect the policy that discriminatory harassment and retaliation in the workplace is a social evil that will not be tolerated. If his employers have violated the law, he has every moral and ethical right to call them to account. Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. It's attitudes like that which the discrimination laws are designed to counter-balance. There's a misconception that just because a gay person isn't necessarily deep in the closet, that somehow he's "flaunting" his gayness in other people's faces. Usually that's just not the case. But more to the point: in his workplace, especially a civilian one, he has no more obligation to go out of his way to conceal the fact that he's gay than, say, a person has an obligation to hide the fact that he's a member of a minority religion. I realize that there are some parts of the country where people still have a tough time accepting that, but there you have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #17 December 29, 2006 QuoteOh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. BLAH BLah blah Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Very cowardly to quote me incompletely like that. Of course, very lawyerly. Quote me fully and it's clear that my statement wasn't very different from your's. But strawmen are easier, aren't they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #18 December 29, 2006 Your replies are getting silly. I think you can do better. When you're ready to have a mature discussion, let me know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #19 December 30, 2006 QuoteYour replies are getting silly. I think you can do better. When you're ready to have a mature discussion, let me know. So long as you deny the intentional misdirection you pulled here, not fucking likely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #20 December 30, 2006 QuoteOh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. And you never ever pay through the nose for bad legal advice from a lawyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #21 December 30, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. I'd like to know if he got fired for: 1. Being Gay 2. Going on stress leave. 3. Arguing the point. 1 and 2 I would think he has a case, but #3 maybe not. It all depends on how he "argued". He could have easily violated his companies acceptable conduct rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #22 December 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. I'd like to know if he got fired for: 1. Being Gay 2. Going on stress leave. 3. Arguing the point. 1 and 2 I would think he has a case, but #3 maybe not. It all depends on how he "argued". He could have easily violated his companies acceptable conduct rules. Or maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #23 December 30, 2006 QuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #24 December 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. I agree, unless the "continued to argue" became insubordination or affected the work of the employee, the manager, or co-workers. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it could have been. I'd like to know what the OP thinks his manager's side of the story would be. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #25 December 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. I agree, unless the "continued to argue" became insubordination or affected the work of the employee, the manager, or co-workers. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it could have been. I'd like to know what the OP thinks his manager's side of the story would be. - If it went to trial, this is basically how the two sides would play out, probably. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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skydemon2 0 #8 December 27, 2006 Was your boss gay too and kept hitting on you?Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone! I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #9 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuote You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Have you EVER read the posts here people on here do stupid shit like that all the time, ALL the time You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #10 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuote One more thing: DO NOT listen to advice, either on here or anywhere else, from anyone who is not an attorney. (Not even an HR professional or your friend who's had a similar case, etc.). You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. He consulted two attorneys who were more than happy to tell him he had a case if he spent money with them. So...if you want to know about snake oil, you wouldn't talk to anyone but snake oil salesmen? That's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. A plaintiff's attorney's decision on whether or not to take a case, and if so, whether or not to front expenses, is often not a black-or-white decision, it depends upon the attorney's analysis of the clients' chances of success given the particular facts of the case and evidence available. There are many grey areas that can militate in either direction. Employment discrimination cases in particular are very often fraught with grey areas in this regard. Very few employment discrimination cases are clear-cut when all of the conflicting evidence is analyzed. To investigate and properly prepare such a case, considerable expenses must be spent on such things as expert witnesses and depositions. Like it or not, a law practice is a business just like any other business. Before a law firm makes a sizable investment on a case, it must analyze whether that investment is going to be recovered. A law firm that fails to do this will go out of business just like any other business that fails to prudently pre-evaluate whether or not to invest its capital and/or borrow money to invest into a project. Now, you can lawyer-bash all you want, but that's the simple reality of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #11 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Have you EVER read the posts here people on here do stupid shit like that all the time, ALL the time You're right. I see people seeking medical advice in here all the time. All I can say is, it makes me go . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 December 27, 2006 QuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. There is, of course, a lot of bad legal advice (more than good, I'm sure) out there from non lawyers. But that's true of almost anything. If you only look at the bad, you end up like Texas where Nolo Press books are banned. BTW, this summer when I needed an orthopedic surgeon, I came here and I got a MUCH better recommendation than I would have gotten otherwise, and the results were great. Per your comments here, you'd think that better information would be available from Stanford Hospital, but you'd be wrong. For the original poster, I can only suggest moving out to SF. Here your boss might be gay, and sexuality is to a large extent a non issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #13 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, it wasn't self-serving; but thank you for impeaching my motives. Believe it or not, I really have no interest in hogging the business for lawyers only. I've been in practice for over 20 years. I don't specialize in employment law cases in particular, but I've handled my share of them, including through jury trials and verdict. Employment discrimination cases are highly specialized, and can be pretty complex. General practitioners who have clients contact them on employment discrimination issues often consult with or refer the clients to employment attorneys for the same reason G.P. physicians refer patients with suspected thyroid ailments to endocrinologists: because a specialist is needed. A non-lawyer, if sufficiently well-trained and well-versed in employment law, might be able to tell someone whether the facts of his employment situation seem, at first blush, to fall within a certain category of discrimination. But that's only the beginning of the process; and if a non-lawyer tries to analyze the nuances, legal strategies, variables, contingencies and probabilities of success or failure at trial or on appeal given dozens of possible variables much beyond that, as well as the economic realities presented by that analysis, he's either going to find himself in over his head or just shooting from the hip, neither of which does a service to the client. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #14 December 28, 2006 Oh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #15 December 28, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. 2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. Has anyone else gone through any bullshit like this before? I've got everything well documented and my employer is clearly breaking the law. Can anyone give me some experienced advice? Do you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #16 December 28, 2006 QuoteDo you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? In the first place, that depends on his damages. If he's gone directly from one job to another with minimum loss of wages, maybe he hasn't suffered much direct monetary loss, yet. If he's still unemployed, or there was a lengthy gap, the actual monetary loss already incurred may be substantial. If that loss was caused by the deliberately wrongful and illegal acts of others, then he has every legal, moral and ethical right to recover that loss. That being said, the laws against discrimination, which exist not only at the Federal level but separately in every state, exist for a reason: because Congress and 50 state legislatures have decided to reflect the policy that discriminatory harassment and retaliation in the workplace is a social evil that will not be tolerated. If his employers have violated the law, he has every moral and ethical right to call them to account. Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. It's attitudes like that which the discrimination laws are designed to counter-balance. There's a misconception that just because a gay person isn't necessarily deep in the closet, that somehow he's "flaunting" his gayness in other people's faces. Usually that's just not the case. But more to the point: in his workplace, especially a civilian one, he has no more obligation to go out of his way to conceal the fact that he's gay than, say, a person has an obligation to hide the fact that he's a member of a minority religion. I realize that there are some parts of the country where people still have a tough time accepting that, but there you have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #10 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuote One more thing: DO NOT listen to advice, either on here or anywhere else, from anyone who is not an attorney. (Not even an HR professional or your friend who's had a similar case, etc.). You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. He consulted two attorneys who were more than happy to tell him he had a case if he spent money with them. So...if you want to know about snake oil, you wouldn't talk to anyone but snake oil salesmen? That's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. A plaintiff's attorney's decision on whether or not to take a case, and if so, whether or not to front expenses, is often not a black-or-white decision, it depends upon the attorney's analysis of the clients' chances of success given the particular facts of the case and evidence available. There are many grey areas that can militate in either direction. Employment discrimination cases in particular are very often fraught with grey areas in this regard. Very few employment discrimination cases are clear-cut when all of the conflicting evidence is analyzed. To investigate and properly prepare such a case, considerable expenses must be spent on such things as expert witnesses and depositions. Like it or not, a law practice is a business just like any other business. Before a law firm makes a sizable investment on a case, it must analyze whether that investment is going to be recovered. A law firm that fails to do this will go out of business just like any other business that fails to prudently pre-evaluate whether or not to invest its capital and/or borrow money to invest into a project. Now, you can lawyer-bash all you want, but that's the simple reality of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #11 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You wouldn't seek treatment for a disease from a non-physician, would you? Same thing applies here. This area is so specialized it requires expert advice. Have you EVER read the posts here people on here do stupid shit like that all the time, ALL the time You're right. I see people seeking medical advice in here all the time. All I can say is, it makes me go . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 December 27, 2006 QuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. There is, of course, a lot of bad legal advice (more than good, I'm sure) out there from non lawyers. But that's true of almost anything. If you only look at the bad, you end up like Texas where Nolo Press books are banned. BTW, this summer when I needed an orthopedic surgeon, I came here and I got a MUCH better recommendation than I would have gotten otherwise, and the results were great. Per your comments here, you'd think that better information would be available from Stanford Hospital, but you'd be wrong. For the original poster, I can only suggest moving out to SF. Here your boss might be gay, and sexuality is to a large extent a non issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #13 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, it wasn't self-serving; but thank you for impeaching my motives. Believe it or not, I really have no interest in hogging the business for lawyers only. I've been in practice for over 20 years. I don't specialize in employment law cases in particular, but I've handled my share of them, including through jury trials and verdict. Employment discrimination cases are highly specialized, and can be pretty complex. General practitioners who have clients contact them on employment discrimination issues often consult with or refer the clients to employment attorneys for the same reason G.P. physicians refer patients with suspected thyroid ailments to endocrinologists: because a specialist is needed. A non-lawyer, if sufficiently well-trained and well-versed in employment law, might be able to tell someone whether the facts of his employment situation seem, at first blush, to fall within a certain category of discrimination. But that's only the beginning of the process; and if a non-lawyer tries to analyze the nuances, legal strategies, variables, contingencies and probabilities of success or failure at trial or on appeal given dozens of possible variables much beyond that, as well as the economic realities presented by that analysis, he's either going to find himself in over his head or just shooting from the hip, neither of which does a service to the client. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #14 December 28, 2006 Oh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #15 December 28, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. 2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. Has anyone else gone through any bullshit like this before? I've got everything well documented and my employer is clearly breaking the law. Can anyone give me some experienced advice? Do you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #16 December 28, 2006 QuoteDo you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? In the first place, that depends on his damages. If he's gone directly from one job to another with minimum loss of wages, maybe he hasn't suffered much direct monetary loss, yet. If he's still unemployed, or there was a lengthy gap, the actual monetary loss already incurred may be substantial. If that loss was caused by the deliberately wrongful and illegal acts of others, then he has every legal, moral and ethical right to recover that loss. That being said, the laws against discrimination, which exist not only at the Federal level but separately in every state, exist for a reason: because Congress and 50 state legislatures have decided to reflect the policy that discriminatory harassment and retaliation in the workplace is a social evil that will not be tolerated. If his employers have violated the law, he has every moral and ethical right to call them to account. Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. It's attitudes like that which the discrimination laws are designed to counter-balance. There's a misconception that just because a gay person isn't necessarily deep in the closet, that somehow he's "flaunting" his gayness in other people's faces. Usually that's just not the case. But more to the point: in his workplace, especially a civilian one, he has no more obligation to go out of his way to conceal the fact that he's gay than, say, a person has an obligation to hide the fact that he's a member of a minority religion. I realize that there are some parts of the country where people still have a tough time accepting that, but there you have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 December 27, 2006 QuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. There is, of course, a lot of bad legal advice (more than good, I'm sure) out there from non lawyers. But that's true of almost anything. If you only look at the bad, you end up like Texas where Nolo Press books are banned. BTW, this summer when I needed an orthopedic surgeon, I came here and I got a MUCH better recommendation than I would have gotten otherwise, and the results were great. Per your comments here, you'd think that better information would be available from Stanford Hospital, but you'd be wrong. For the original poster, I can only suggest moving out to SF. Here your boss might be gay, and sexuality is to a large extent a non issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #13 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's not only extremely pessimistic, it's a complete distortion. fine - more simply put, your advice was self serving. There is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, it wasn't self-serving; but thank you for impeaching my motives. Believe it or not, I really have no interest in hogging the business for lawyers only. I've been in practice for over 20 years. I don't specialize in employment law cases in particular, but I've handled my share of them, including through jury trials and verdict. Employment discrimination cases are highly specialized, and can be pretty complex. General practitioners who have clients contact them on employment discrimination issues often consult with or refer the clients to employment attorneys for the same reason G.P. physicians refer patients with suspected thyroid ailments to endocrinologists: because a specialist is needed. A non-lawyer, if sufficiently well-trained and well-versed in employment law, might be able to tell someone whether the facts of his employment situation seem, at first blush, to fall within a certain category of discrimination. But that's only the beginning of the process; and if a non-lawyer tries to analyze the nuances, legal strategies, variables, contingencies and probabilities of success or failure at trial or on appeal given dozens of possible variables much beyond that, as well as the economic realities presented by that analysis, he's either going to find himself in over his head or just shooting from the hip, neither of which does a service to the client. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #14 December 28, 2006 Oh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #15 December 28, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. 2 attorneys I've seen say I've got a case, but they want expenses up front. Has anyone else gone through any bullshit like this before? I've got everything well documented and my employer is clearly breaking the law. Can anyone give me some experienced advice? Do you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #16 December 28, 2006 QuoteDo you really want to waste precious moments of your life suing anybody? In the first place, that depends on his damages. If he's gone directly from one job to another with minimum loss of wages, maybe he hasn't suffered much direct monetary loss, yet. If he's still unemployed, or there was a lengthy gap, the actual monetary loss already incurred may be substantial. If that loss was caused by the deliberately wrongful and illegal acts of others, then he has every legal, moral and ethical right to recover that loss. That being said, the laws against discrimination, which exist not only at the Federal level but separately in every state, exist for a reason: because Congress and 50 state legislatures have decided to reflect the policy that discriminatory harassment and retaliation in the workplace is a social evil that will not be tolerated. If his employers have violated the law, he has every moral and ethical right to call them to account. Just go get another job and this time, leave your sexual preferences at the door on your way in. It's attitudes like that which the discrimination laws are designed to counter-balance. There's a misconception that just because a gay person isn't necessarily deep in the closet, that somehow he's "flaunting" his gayness in other people's faces. Usually that's just not the case. But more to the point: in his workplace, especially a civilian one, he has no more obligation to go out of his way to conceal the fact that he's gay than, say, a person has an obligation to hide the fact that he's a member of a minority religion. I realize that there are some parts of the country where people still have a tough time accepting that, but there you have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 December 29, 2006 QuoteOh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. BLAH BLah blah Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. Very cowardly to quote me incompletely like that. Of course, very lawyerly. Quote me fully and it's clear that my statement wasn't very different from your's. But strawmen are easier, aren't they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #18 December 29, 2006 Your replies are getting silly. I think you can do better. When you're ready to have a mature discussion, let me know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 December 30, 2006 QuoteYour replies are getting silly. I think you can do better. When you're ready to have a mature discussion, let me know. So long as you deny the intentional misdirection you pulled here, not fucking likely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #20 December 30, 2006 QuoteOh, one more thing: QuoteThere is a lot of good legal advice available from non lawyers. No, there isn't. There's plenty of "legal advice" quite readily available from non-lawyers, to be sure. But through the years, as I've heard one story, after another, after another, of people getting "legal advice" from: cops, paralegals, their dads who are successful businessmen, clerical employees down at the courthouse, social workers, MBAs who have taken 1 or 2 business law courses, accountants, judge's secretaries, people who have had a couple civil or criminal cases of their own, lawyers' moms, and (possibly worst of all) law students – I've come to realize: Yes, there's a lot of legal advice available from non-lawyers, and most of it is pretty bad. And you never ever pay through the nose for bad legal advice from a lawyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #21 December 30, 2006 QuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. I'd like to know if he got fired for: 1. Being Gay 2. Going on stress leave. 3. Arguing the point. 1 and 2 I would think he has a case, but #3 maybe not. It all depends on how he "argued". He could have easily violated his companies acceptable conduct rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #22 December 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteI went out on stress for sexual harrassment (cause I'm gay) earlier this year. Upon my return to work, I went from wunderkind to the worst employee evah. Got fired because I continued to argue this point with my manager. I'd like to know if he got fired for: 1. Being Gay 2. Going on stress leave. 3. Arguing the point. 1 and 2 I would think he has a case, but #3 maybe not. It all depends on how he "argued". He could have easily violated his companies acceptable conduct rules. Or maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #23 December 30, 2006 QuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #24 December 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. I agree, unless the "continued to argue" became insubordination or affected the work of the employee, the manager, or co-workers. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it could have been. I'd like to know what the OP thinks his manager's side of the story would be. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #25 December 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr maybe his manager got tired of hearing it because he continued to argue this point. You can be a pain as long as you don't violate acceptable conduct rules. I have had employees I really wished I could have fired, but they were well within their rights to say or do what they were doing. I agree, unless the "continued to argue" became insubordination or affected the work of the employee, the manager, or co-workers. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it could have been. I'd like to know what the OP thinks his manager's side of the story would be. - If it went to trial, this is basically how the two sides would play out, probably. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
