kallend 2,174 #801 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure whether or not that was a veiled insult. Actually, I was referring to Christians who seldom can see outside their own denominational worldview. But that being said, I guess it applies to atheists too. No insults intended. None taken.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #802 January 18, 2007 QuoteI truly understand what you are saying (except for the bit about kissing God's "arse" which is not at all what he wants from you, but I believe is your way of painting Him as unreasonable-- truthfully what will happen eventually is that every knee will bow before Him and every mouth will confess that He is Lord). According to the Bible, I can't save myself by being a nice guy, no matter how decent I am I fall short in Gods eyes. I could put Ghandi to shame and I'd still be fucked. The only way I can save myself, is by accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour and bowing down before God. It doesn't matter if I'm the biggest genocidal maniac the world has ever seen, if I do that I'm God's new best mate. That my friend is arse kissing at it's most basic level. The Mafia use similar tricks, it's known as a protection racket. QuoteThe stakes are high. Says who? Your book, that's who. I've yet to see any real evidence that the stakes even exist. QuoteStill, He has given ample evidence of His existence and His works in creation and life; not to mention-- yes-- even the tenable witness in His word concerning Christ and what He has done to restore us to the Father. He hasn't otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. QuoteWith all respect, I don't think it's one's "high standards" which get in the way of comprehension; I think it's a stubborness, which keeps one from even being able to look at the evidence without bias against it. We obviously have different standards of proof by the simple fact that you believe the Bible is evidence enough of God and I think the Bible is evidence that the people who wrote it believed in god, not that god exists. If the "evidence" is only acceptable as evidence when the reader believes what it seems to show, it's not evidence at all, merely salesmanship. QuoteUntil/unless God does whatever He needs to do to get through to an unwilling mind, the truth will look doubtful if not outrageous. Look, I just cannot believe the unbelieveable without some credible evidence. It's not in me to suspend rationality for long enough to buy into this stuff without it. So if I find out that the Bible was right all along when I die, it will (as you point out) be God's fault. God made me the way I am and by sitting on his divine arse and not producing some credible evidence he will be directly responsible for me going to hell. In those circumstances, I think I'd be justified in punching the sadistic fucker in the mouth. You even admit in the lines above that to a skeptic the evidence "will look doubtful if not outrageous". To risk repeating myself, if the "evidence" is only acceptable as evidence when the reader believes what it seems to show, then it is no such thing. QuoteSo for now, we won't see eye to eye on this. Let's not beat a dead horse. OK, Jack? You are your own man and have every right to your belief, or disbelief as the case may be! I respect your right to it whether I agree with it or not. The same could be said, and I'm willing to bet it is, of you. Agreed. You are quite welcome to believe anything you want but I reserve the right to call bullshit if you tell me I should believe it too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,608 #803 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe reliability you have been talking about (accuracy of transmission of the Bible) cannot of itself show that the claims within are true. This has already been demonstrated to you Don't confuse the truth of the authors' claims with the accuracy of their eyewitness testimony. I'm talking specifically about the accuracy of their testimony-- I can trust that it is accurate, tho' what it implies is another matter. Aaargh, you're still doing it! It doesn't matter how well we know that their testimony was transmitted accurately - that doesn't mean the testimony itself is accurate. You specifically wrote that if the text was accurate it shows the testimony within to be accurate - that is wrong. We could have their testimony absolutely word perfect and they could have made up every word of it. The accuracy of the transmission of the bible is a prerequisite for it being accurate but does not actually imply that it is.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #804 January 18, 2007 Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book called Bluebeard in the late 80's I think. In that book all of the characters and places were real. Many of the historic events written about actually happened and can be proven. The only thing in the entire book that was not real was the main character and the story and life of the main character. I grew up where this story took place and know many of the people that were written about. In another few years when all of the other characters in the book are dead, it could easily be proven that this book was non fiction using the same "evidence" that people use to try to prove the bible is a factual account of history.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #805 January 18, 2007 i posted message 1 from 'the handbook for the new paradigm' a while back. here is the whole book in pdf. lets all stop debating 'god and put our infinite conciousness together and shut the darkness engulfing the planet of which WE ARE ALL NATIVES down oops-its too big to attach, send me a private e-mail and i'll send it to you, if you really want to solve OUR problemswe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #806 January 19, 2007 Thanks for sparing me.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #807 January 19, 2007 QuoteYou guys have logic and scientific reasoning down real well. That's a moot point. Only a couple of 'em argue from logic. I'd enjoy the discussion a lot more if they would ask me what I mean instead of tell me what I mean...Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #808 January 19, 2007 QuoteKurt Vonnegut wrote a book called Bluebeard in the late 80's I think. In that book all of the characters and places were real. Many of the historic events written about actually happened and can be proven. The only thing in the entire book that was not real was the main character and the story and life of the main character. I grew up where this story took place and know many of the people that were written about. In another few years when all of the other characters in the book are dead, it could easily be proven that this book was non fiction using the same "evidence" that people use to try to prove the bible is a factual account of history. Next you'll be telling us that Forrest Gump wasn't a true story.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #809 January 19, 2007 I think we agree on that point, jakee. We're just stating it differently. I think. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #810 January 19, 2007 QuoteThe accuracy of the transmission of the bible is a prerequisite for it being accurate but does not actually imply that it is. Oops, sorry. I forgot to c & p what I was referring to in my last post.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #811 January 19, 2007 QuoteAccording to the Bible, I can't save myself by being a nice guy, Right. Quoteno matter how decent I am I fall short in Gods eyes. 9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." 15 And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16 But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child [i.e., in humility and trust] will not enter it at all." QuoteThat my friend is arse kissing at it's most basic level. You may call it that, but you'd be mistaken, because giving glory and honor to the ONE who deserves it is *fitting.* Human beings are averse to bowing down to anyone other than themselves and their wants (often mistaken with "rights")-- humility before God is to be avoided at all costs... even if it means being separated from Him eternally. The truth is, you have no idea how much He loves you--- enough to make the ultimate sacrifice for you to be restored to Him. He stooped a lot lower than you'd have to to "kiss someone's arse." Worshiping Him is pittance compared to His love and what He did for us.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #812 January 19, 2007 QuoteQuote What is the difference between believing something beyond a reasonable doubt and believing something beyond the shadow of a doubt? One is a legal standard of proof. The other is a metaphorical expression of certainty. Yes. To me, believing something "beyond a shadow of a doubt" means that I'm certain; I have no doubt that what I believe is true. (As in: I'm sure that my dad loved me.") Believing something "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that I've weighed the evidence, and my mind has no reason to veto the will to believe it. This is assurance of mind based on probability. Kind of like jumping out of an airplane and believing that I'll have fun and I'll land safely. Well, this is the way I look at it. My confidence in the eyewitness testimony of the gospel authors is "beyond a reasonable doubt." So is my confidence in the reliability of the extant manuscripts of Scripture. Whatever objections are made, it seems I eventually find them unable to hold water.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pocbase 0 #813 January 19, 2007 Thought it might lighten the mood The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win! Enfin j'ai trouvé: Bieeeen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #814 January 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote What is the difference between believing something beyond a reasonable doubt and believing something beyond the shadow of a doubt? One is a legal standard of proof. The other is a metaphorical expression of certainty. ... Believing something "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that I've weighed the evidence, and my mind has no reason to veto the will to believe it. This is assurance of mind based on probability. Kind of like jumping out of an airplane and believing that I'll have fun and I'll land safely. ... Wow... I hope you don't mean that, beyond a reasonable doubt, you'll be safe jumping out of a plane. Especially since most of us know someone who has died parachuting... people who had many more jumps than you and me. This sport is not safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #815 January 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteBelieving something "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that I've weighed the evidence, and my mind has no reason to veto the will to believe it. This is assurance of mind based on probability. Kind of like jumping out of an airplane and believing that I'll have fun and I'll land safely. ... Wow... I hope you don't mean that, beyond a reasonable doubt, you'll be safe jumping out of a plane. Especially since most of us know someone who has died parachuting... people who had many more jumps than you and me. This sport is not safe. Really? Skydiving isn't safe???? Why? Do you think I should believe "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I'll have fun and land safely? It's impossible to know that beforehand. Am I understanding you correctly?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #816 January 19, 2007 QuoteDo you think I should believe "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I'll have fun and land safely? It's impossible to know that beforehand. I don't think you should believe "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that you'll have fun and land safely. I think every time you jump from a plane, there should be significant doubt about that outcome. This sport is inherently dangerous, the more prepared you are, the better off you will be. You can do everything right and still die. I believe that unless you truly embrace and believe that bolded statement, you are jumping under false pretenses and should think some more before you make your next jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #817 January 19, 2007 QuoteYou can do everything right and still die. That was exactly my point. Thanks.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #818 January 19, 2007 QuoteIf you actually faced the Almighty, what would you ask Him if you only had one question? I hope for serious responses from believers and non-believers, but I doubt I'll receive it. I'm not trying to paint God as "christian" or anything else at this moment. I simply would like for you to be honest and tell me what you would ask God if you came face to face one day. Me? I'd ask: Why is so much hate and anger vented by many who name the name of Christ? Why are 20 million Hindus wrong?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #819 January 19, 2007 Sigh John...havent you learned anything in this thread? They are wrong because they havent accepeted Jesus as their only savior. Its simple realy.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #820 January 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteBelieving something "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that I've weighed the evidence, and my mind has no reason to veto the will to believe it. This is assurance of mind based on probability. Kind of like jumping out of an airplane and believing that I'll have fun and I'll land safely. ... Wow... I hope you don't mean that, beyond a reasonable doubt, you'll be safe jumping out of a plane. Especially since most of us know someone who has died parachuting... people who had many more jumps than you and me. This sport is not safe. Really? Skydiving isn't safe???? Why? Do you think I should believe "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I'll have fun and land safely? It's impossible to know that beforehand. Am I understanding you correctly? No. My point was that you shouldn't believe you'll be safe. So, I hope you don't believe beyond a reasonable doubt (or shadow either) that you'll be safe, because there's a decent chance something might go wrong. When people start thinking they're safe, they sometimes stop doing the things that make them safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #821 January 20, 2007 QuoteNo. My point was that you shouldn't believe you'll be safe. So, I hope you don't believe beyond a reasonable doubt (or shadow either) that you'll be safe, because there's a decent chance something might go wrong. When people start thinking they're safe, they sometimes stop doing the things that make them safer. Decent chance? I don't know about you but I follow the rules, use common sense, pack carefully, and know the limitations of myself and who I'm jumping with. With these precautions in place, I trust that there is a very small chance of anything going wrong and that my jump will be safe (otherwise, I wouldn’t do it). Why? Because I've done the groundwork and training to make it as safe as possible. No. It's not 100% safe. Nothing is. But, if one is careful and responsible, it is really a safe sport. I believe I'll be safe. By the way, I've had to cut away 3 times during my time in the sport. I still feel safe jumping. On another note, I tend to describe the Christian faith in terms of preponderance of the evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. From a non-Christian perspective and similar to the example above, it is never 100%. That's where faith comes in. I just think that there is plenty of evidence for one to make and informed decision and put their trust in what it says. Many here disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #822 January 20, 2007 QuoteThought it might lighten the mood perfect answer. You win the thread. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #823 January 20, 2007 god created people on this planet with skulls like these?we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pocbase 0 #824 January 20, 2007 The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win! Enfin j'ai trouvé: Bieeeen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #825 January 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteNo. My point was that you shouldn't believe you'll be safe. So, I hope you don't believe beyond a reasonable doubt (or shadow either) that you'll be safe, because there's a decent chance something might go wrong. When people start thinking they're safe, they sometimes stop doing the things that make them safer. Decent chance? I don't know about you but I follow the rules, use common sense, pack carefully, and know the limitations of myself and who I'm jumping with. With these precautions in place, I trust that there is a very small chance of anything going wrong and that my jump will be safe (otherwise, I wouldn’t do it). Why? Because I've done the groundwork and training to make it as safe as possible. No. It's not 100% safe. Nothing is. But, if one is careful and responsible, it is really a safe sport. I believe I'll be safe. By the way, I've had to cut away 3 times during my time in the sport. I still feel safe jumping. . I said a decent chance "something" might go wrong. Not a mal you need to chop, but something... could be line twists, a loss of altitude awareness, a freefall collision, a canopy collision, tension knot, altimeter problems, etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
