br0k3n 0 #751 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotearcheological data give me an example, one that directly relates to jesus... As I said to Zenister, I will find something specific. But not tonight!!!! I'm dead tired. If I forget, feel free to remind me! Specific, like perhaps the holy grail? or maybe the arc of the covenant?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,584 #752 January 17, 2007 Quotewhat the textual criticism demonstrates about the reliability of the N.T. texts; the eyewitness testimony of the disciples of Jesus, which is reliable because the texts in which their testimony is recorded has been shown to be reliable; What? No, absolutely not! The reliability you have been talking about (accuracy of transmission of the Bible) cannot of itself show that the claims within are true. This has already been demonstrated to youDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #753 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhy go to the trouble of showing where you answered a question, when a simple "Yes I did" will do. because spoon feeding anyone an answer (ala most Christian sects) does NOTHING to educate the individual. Looking for the answer for one self does.. a minor point in this context perhaps, but why should someone "do your work for you"? if you REALLY want to know.. go look for yourself... Whooooosh! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #754 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteyou know NOTHING for certain about any of your TEXTS but you believe implicitly that they are what they claim to be... and you DISbelieve without knowing anything for certain. I look at the evidence and deem it as beyond a reasonable doubt. You don't. So? You disbelieve in Krishna while a Billion Hindus believe. How do you know they are wrong? Your arguments are in total contradiction to all logic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #755 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotearcheological data give me an example, one that directly relates to jesus... As I said to Zenister, I will find something specific. But not tonight!!!! I'm dead tired. If I forget, feel free to remind me! Specific, like perhaps the holy grail? or maybe the arc of the covenant? How about the Shroud of Turin ... oh, wait, that was a fraud, but it took SCIENTISTS to show that. How about an image of Mary in a toasted bagel?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #756 January 17, 2007 Quote Johnny Cash - God's Gonna Cut You Down You can run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down. Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down. . Mairzy doats and dozy doats And liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Yes! Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Just as relevant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #757 January 17, 2007 QuoteHow about an image of Mary in a toasted bagel? I LOVE that kind of stuff. If it was me, I'd look at the bagel and say "Hmm, that looks like the Virgin Mary. How about that?" Then I'd creamcheese/jelly it up and eat it. If I was smarter, "Hmm that looks like the Virgin Mary. How about that?" Then I'd clear coat it and sell it on E-Bay. Stuff looks like things. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #758 January 17, 2007 Quote 2- You made the claim that a supernatural explanation for Christ's empty tomb isn't necessary; what is your explanation? (You made a stab at answering this by referring to magic; but of course, I didn't think you were being serious.) It was all that's necessary to someone with an open mind. I once saw a tiger disappear from a cage hanging in mid air. It was in a Las Vegas show. Making a body disappear from a cave is hardly difficult. Why, you could even make up a story and not have to do anything at all. Politicians and marketers do it all the time. These folks were just marketing their cult, after all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,584 #759 January 17, 2007 QuoteIf it was me, I'd look at the bagel and say "Hmm, that looks like the Virgin Mary. How about that?" Then I'd creamcheese/jelly it up and eat it. I very much doubt I would ever notice unless someone pointed one out to me. Wonderful thing, the power of suggestion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #760 January 17, 2007 QuoteHow about an image of Mary in a toasted bagel? Stop belittleling people's beleifs John. Everyone know that Mary's sprit prefers to manifest itself in toasted white bread or grilled cheese sammiches.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #761 January 17, 2007 Whereas Jesus prefers a dogs butt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #762 January 17, 2007 QuoteStop belittleling people's beleifs John. That's inaccurate - you can't really belittle 'beliefs', they have no feelings. You can only belittle people for having beliefs. It's a very gracious habit to have. Makes your mother really proud. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #763 January 17, 2007 Quote Your unbelief probably clouds your perception, as well, don't you think? Perhaps your unbelief keeps you from seeing the validity of the evidence. So, are we gonna' argue about whose reasons for believing/disbelieving are the most "laughable"? the rest of your post has been well answered by others already so i wont repeat. I have no inherent 'disbelief'. As with ANY Text, or Religion, i approach it with an open mind to see what is there, what is claimed and what can be reconciled with Reality (as humans currently understand it).. Your belief creates 'evidence' (for you) that is Simply NOT THERE if you do not believe. Your TEXT (and the Religion founded on it) makes clearly astounding claims, but fails utterly to back them up when examined OBJECTIVELY. ofc it (should) go with out saying that the burden of proof lies with those who MAKE such extraordinary claims, not with those who say "Really? that doesn't match any Reasonable Objective Standard of Evidence or Proof"____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #764 January 17, 2007 QuoteIf I found a paper that claimed to contain a new theory on global warming, medieval golf course management, or indeed any claim of not insignificant magnitude, I would expect it to withstand a certain level of scrutiny. The bigger the claim, the higher the level of scrutiny. The Bible's makes an extraordinary claim of the highest magnitude (ie. that a perfect God exists and he loves me yet I'm going to burn in hell eternally if I don't kiss his arse) so I expect the Bible to withstand the very highest levels of examination. Moreover the book is supposed to have been writen under the guidance of the very omnipotent, omniscient god the book claims exists. The circular reasoning of the biblical claim alone doubles the need for suspicion but if the claim is true, the Bible should easily withstand such criticism. Clearly it doesn't. I doesn't even meet the minimum standard to be considered a coherent story. Your standards are obviously very much lower than mine. I truly understand what you are saying (except for the bit about kissing God's "arse" which is not at all what he wants from you, but I believe is your way of painting Him as unreasonable-- truthfully what will happen eventually is that every knee will bow before Him and every mouth will confess that He is Lord). The stakes are high. Still, He has given ample evidence of His existence and His works in creation and life; not to mention-- yes-- even the tenable witness in His word concerning Christ and what He has done to restore us to the Father. With all respect, I don't think it's one's "high standards" which get in the way of comprehension; I think it's a stubborness, which keeps one from even being able to look at the evidence without bias against it. Until/unless God does whatever He needs to do to get through to an unwilling mind, the truth will look doubtful if not outrageous. So for now, we won't see eye to eye on this. Let's not beat a dead horse. OK, Jack? You are your own man and have every right to your belief, or disbelief as the case may be! I respect your right to it whether I agree with it or not. The same could be said, and I'm willing to bet it is, of you. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #765 January 17, 2007 Mairzy doats and dozy doats And liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Yes! Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy A kid will eat ivy too, wouldn't you? Just clearing that up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #766 January 17, 2007 QuoteMairzy doats and dozy doats And liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Yes! Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy A kid will eat ivy too, wouldn't you? Just clearing that up. That's not the Bing Crosby version... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #767 January 17, 2007 QuoteSpecific, like perhaps the holy grail? or maybe the arc of the covenant? Oh no, nothing that would probably knock your socks off. Just discoveries of things like inscriptions which confirm that writers such as Luke knew what they were talking about, in spite of past doubt. You'll see what I mean by that. I have a book called The Archeology of the New Testament (©1970). So that's what I'll primarily be using, although there are other sources which contain the same type of information plus a lot more about what we've discussed on this thread. One is Evidence Which Demands a Verdict (Volumes 1 & 2) by Josh McDowell. I recommend it highly for the incredulous who want a one-book-fits-all type of reference to look into these things for themselves. It's a large volume, but worth the purchase. Here it is at Amazon.com. Granted, the data he presents is then interpreted through the filter of his personal acceptance, but one is still able to look at all the evidence and go from there.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #768 January 17, 2007 QuoteThe reliability you have been talking about (accuracy of transmission of the Bible) cannot of itself show that the claims within are true. This has already been demonstrated to you Don't confuse the truth of the authors' claims with the accuracy of their eyewitness testimony. I'm talking specifically about the accuracy of their testimony-- I can trust that it is accurate, tho' what it implies is another matter. (Of course for me, it implies the same things as it did for them.)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #769 January 17, 2007 QuoteMaking a body disappear from a cave is hardly difficult. Why, you could even make up a story and not have to do anything at all. Politicians and marketers do it all the time. These folks were just marketing their cult, after all. Nah, not difficult at all... in spite of the Romans' committment to keep the body of Christ from "disappearing." OK, I'll take that as an answer. Matthew's testimony: 27:57-66 The Burial of Jesus 57 As evening approached, Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea who had become a follower of Jesus, 58 went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. And Pilate issued an order to release it to him. 59 Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a long sheet of clean linen cloth. 60 He placed it in his own new tomb, which had been carved out of the rock. Then he rolled a great stone across the entrance and left. 61 Both Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting across from the tomb and watching. The Guard at the Tomb 62 The next day, on the Sabbath, the leading priests and Pharisees went to see Pilate. 63 They told him, “Sir, we remember what that deceiver once said while he was still alive: ‘After three days I will rise from the dead.’ 64 So we request that you seal the tomb until the third day. This will prevent his disciples from coming and stealing his body and then telling everyone he was raised from the dead! If that happens, we’ll be worse off than we were at first.” 65 Pilate replied, “Take guards and secure it the best you can.” 66 So they sealed the tomb and posted guards to protect it.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #770 January 17, 2007 Quoteofc it (should) go with out saying that the burden of proof lies with those who MAKE such extraordinary claims, not with those who say "Really? that doesn't match any Reasonable Objective Standard of Evidence or Proof" I've never claimed to have proof of the claims I make. I can only point you to the evidence, which, as I've said, I have found to be beyond a reasonable doubt. If you want to call the evidence "created" by my belief, go ahead; but I see that as putting the cart before the horse-- the evidence was there even when I didn't believe it. What do you want from me, Zen?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #771 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteMaking a body disappear from a cave is hardly difficult. Why, you could even make up a story and not have to do anything at all. Politicians and marketers do it all the time. These folks were just marketing their cult, after all. Nah, not difficult at all... in spite of the Romans' committment to keep the body of Christ from "disappearing." OK, I'll take that as an answer. Matthew's testimony: 27:57-66 The Burial of Jesus 57 As evening approached, Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea who had become a follower of Jesus, 58 went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. And Pilate issued an order to release it to him. 59 Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a long sheet of clean linen cloth. 60 He placed it in his own new tomb, which had been carved out of the rock. Then he rolled a great stone across the entrance and left. 61 Both Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting across from the tomb and watching. The Guard at the Tomb 62 The next day, on the Sabbath, the leading priests and Pharisees went to see Pilate. 63 They told him, “Sir, we remember what that deceiver once said while he was still alive: ‘After three days I will rise from the dead.’ 64 So we request that you seal the tomb until the third day. This will prevent his disciples from coming and stealing his body and then telling everyone he was raised from the dead! If that happens, we’ll be worse off than we were at first.” 65 Pilate replied, “Take guards and secure it the best you can.” 66 So they sealed the tomb and posted guards to protect it. Did you know Alexander the Great was the son of Zeus? - Greek literature tells us so, so it MUST be true.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #772 January 17, 2007 QuoteWhat do you want from me, Zen? only that you recognize that what you and Paj and the other Xtians in this thread name as 'proof' or 'evidence' fails to meet every objective standard available.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #773 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteMaking a body disappear from a cave is hardly difficult. Why, you could even make up a story and not have to do anything at all. Politicians and marketers do it all the time. These folks were just marketing their cult, after all. Nah, not difficult at all... in spite of the Romans' committment to keep the body of Christ from "disappearing." OK, I'll take that as an answer. Matthew's testimony: 27:57-66 The Burial of Jesus 57 As evening approached, Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea who had become a follower of Jesus, 58 went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. And Pilate issued an order to release it to him. 59 Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a long sheet of clean linen cloth. 60 He placed it in his own new tomb, which had been carved out of the rock. Then he rolled a great stone across the entrance and left. 61 Both Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting across from the tomb and watching. The Guard at the Tomb 62 The next day, on the Sabbath, the leading priests and Pharisees went to see Pilate. 63 They told him, “Sir, we remember what that deceiver once said while he was still alive: ‘After three days I will rise from the dead.’ 64 So we request that you seal the tomb until the third day. This will prevent his disciples from coming and stealing his body and then telling everyone he was raised from the dead! If that happens, we’ll be worse off than we were at first.” 65 Pilate replied, “Take guards and secure it the best you can.” 66 So they sealed the tomb and posted guards to protect it. ofc since they paid it so much attention (per your document) they certainly would have some record of said order? Who exactly observed and recorded the Orders of Pilate that were then relayed to your 'eyewitnesses' who created your text? you still dont get YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING that is credible as 'eyewitness' testimony to ANY of the Events you believe as true.. You have a STORY about them.. that is all..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #774 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteyou know NOTHING for certain about any of your TEXTS but you believe implicitly that they are what they claim to be... and you DISbelieve without knowing anything for certain. I look at the evidence and deem it as beyond a reasonable doubt. i know for certain that nothing in your Text can be verified by a third party source. It is a wonderful story, but as Evidence of the Events it describes it is no more reliable than any other written work. (ie not at all unless backed by OBJECTIVE sources) and please please NEVER EVER EVER serve on a jury... in fact when you are being interviewed make absolutely certain you tell the lawyer that you accept the Bible as proof of God and the Divinity of Jesus BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, so they can exclude you as a 'reasonable' person when someones life and liberty may be at stake.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #775 January 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhat do you want from me, Zen? only that you recognize that what you and Paj and the other Xtians in this thread name as 'proof' or 'evidence' fails to meet every objective standard available. Again, I've never called the evidence we cite as "proof." So please don't misrepresent me. YOU say that the evidence fails to meet "every objective standard available." OK, Zen, what ARE these objective standards? If you tell me what the standards for evidence are, maybe I'll be able to agree that our evidence fails the test. And if these standards exist, be sure to tell me where they come from. Bureau of Standards? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
