NCclimber 0 #176 December 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteActually, it's not that big, compared with corporate America.Really, you better check where your information came from because if you took away all of the sub-$5 billion industries in America there would be no "corporate America" left Really? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #177 December 26, 2006 What the hell? It must me true than with proof like that? In Internet auction page with people advertising high priced shotguns, most of which have no bids. You have made your case. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #178 December 26, 2006 QuoteNegativeBwahhhhhhhhhh, why, because you say so? sub-billion dollar companies make up over 90% of "corporate America" and as such they ARE the majority. Take away 90% of corporate America and see what happens.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #179 December 26, 2006 QuoteWhat the hell? It must me true than with proof like that? In Internet auction page with people advertising high priced shotguns, most of which have no bids. You have made your case. Seriously... I think my contacts in the industry are a bit more intelligent on this topic than you are. If you choose to buy the lesser cost ones, good. Enjoy! Have fun. But don't assume that everyone else has the same standards that you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #180 December 26, 2006 QuoteYou would be surprised I personally know of 4 people within 10 miles of where I live that are in that category and I am not into guns. I also know people who own exotic guns. And hundreds more who don't. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #181 December 26, 2006 QuoteSeriously... I think my contacts in the industry are a bit more intelligent on this topic than you are Ok then. You should have just told me you knew people who told you so rather than link me to a gunbroker auction. I still don't believe the average shotgun (in the us at least) is more than 1 grand. I know my first number was low. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #182 December 26, 2006 Get back to me when you can give non-subjective information to support your position.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #183 December 26, 2006 OK... enough about who you know that might have a shiny pretty gun... the point I was trying to make before being taken off topic was that the simple question of "Are .50cal's 'necessary'?" is just that. Simple. I brought up the fact that business (big or small) is about sales and marketting. So just ONE type of rifle or one cheap shotgun or one kind of caliber isn't acceptable. We, as a people, tend to think that new is better and want to one-up the jones. (even if the Jones have a firearm worth more than your car). I made an intelligent post on the different options available (#144 on page 6 if you're interested)... and all that is bickered about is how the firearms industry is like the drug cartel, the defination of "Big Business" and the cost of someone shotgun?! This is why congress can't get anywhere.... Discussing the philosophy of guns is a big picture thing (yes... I did say big... I hope that doesn't offend or frighten anyone) Yet everyone wants to focus on the little things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #184 December 26, 2006 Don't hold your breath. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #185 December 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteNegativeBwahhhhhhhhhh, why, because you say so? sub-billion dollar companies make up over 90% of "corporate America" and as such they ARE the majority. Take away 90% of corporate America and see what happens. Oh. So now it's about companies... not industries? Nice segue. Here's a little refresher ***Actually, it's not that big, compared with corporate America. A few years ago it was said that civilian gun sales in the U.S. amounted to $5 billion per year. That's from all gun makers, combined. That's also the same gross sales as the garbage company I used to work for (BFI). Compared with most big companies, all the firearms makers, even combined as an industry, don't amount to much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #186 December 26, 2006 Quotethe point I was trying to make before being taken off topic was that the simple question of "Are .50cal's 'necessary'?" This is a matter of the anti-gun advocates not being interested in compromise. As a result, the pro-gun people are going to fight all efforts to restrict gun control. Just look at how the rights of tobacco smokers have changed over the last 40 years, to see what the pro-gun people fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #187 December 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteNegativeBwahhhhhhhhhh, why, because you say so? sub-billion dollar companies make up over 90% of "corporate America" and as such they ARE the majority. Take away 90% of corporate America and see what happens. You initially said; "if you took away all of the sub-$5 billion industries in America there would be no "corporate America" left. That statement seemed to imply that you believed that there were no companies in America with revenues greater than $5 billion. That is to what my "negative" comment was in reply. Before laughing so hard at other's miscomprehension, you should first try composing your sentences better to be more understandable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #188 December 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow do YOU explain the increase in violent crime, including handgun homicides, in the USA with the increase in CCW permits? Ladies and gentlemen: I request that you not allow kallend to sideline this discussion with this personal game of his. He's already had his say on it in this thread. There's no point in re-hashing that again here. How come youi didn't object to THIS post? A bit of hypocrisy there, John. Gonna call me a liar next?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #189 December 26, 2006 (Honestly... If this were true debate, I'm thinking I should get a point of personal privilege here. Especially with how you guys just make me want to go to the kitchen and burn eggs.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #190 December 26, 2006 Try this one.....what is the percentage of industries (all) that are over $5 billion?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #191 December 26, 2006 Quote(Honestly... If this were true debate, I'm thinking I should get a point of personal privilege here. Especially with how you guys just make me want to go to the kitchen and burn eggs.) Well since you are a woman and as such clearly could not have a clue as to the subject that all of the men are talking about, the kitchen is probably a good place for you. Could I have my eggs over easy please?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #192 December 26, 2006 WTF? Karen, I guess some people can't fathom having at least a Benelli or similar around. You want something really well made?, get out your checkbook. As you well know... I have spent nearly 2k on one rifle so far, and it isn't even up and running yet. But I did save some cash by using a scope I already owned, it's a Leupold, but I wish it was a U.S. OPTICS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #193 December 26, 2006 QuoteOh. So now it's about companies... not industries? Nice segue.It is about all of it since corporate America is made up of companies that support the industries and by most accepted economic standards $5 billion is not small. And the $5 billion only represents the direct sales and not the companies or industry economic impact as a whole.QuoteJust look at how the rights of tobacco smokers have changed over the last 40 years, to see what the pro-gun people fear.Guns cause cancer and other health issues? I seem to forget, which constitutional amendment was it that addresses the tobacco industry?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #194 December 26, 2006 QuoteWTF? As you well know... I know. But... it seems that to make a point when calculating revenue from legitimate sources and using reasonable values.... some people just get their feelings hurt. I guess it comes down to - when you're used to driving Hyundais (and trust me, I saw one on a website once or some guy told me that they are nice cars so, therefore they are nice cars)... you can't possibly understand why someone would price an Escalade so high. Well... especially if all my friends have hyundais... so the average value of a car must be $X. And with that logic, the Automobile industry (or maybe just one company... or maybe just one model of one make) isn't big enough business to generate marketting strategies or understand how to sell the product by promoting that this is faster or more reliable or better.... because to try to understand that mindset, we would first have to associate it with a non-constitutionally protected privelege or even an illegal business. AND... if you understand all of that, then tell me what we do about firearms regulation, cuz I'm not smart enough to follow this debate. edit to add... and Mike, the special in the kitchen is BURNT eggs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #195 December 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow do you explain the dramtic increase in violent crime in the UK and Australia since they banned practically all private ownership of firearm?Quote How do YOU explain the increase in violent crime, including handgun homicides, in the USA with the increase in CCW permits? Kallend makes a good point--It's not an honest argument to draw unsubstantiated cause/effect correlations between two actions or events. Crime has increased everywhere, and neither allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns or preventing citizens from owning firearms has been able to substantially retard or accelerate that steady increase. In my mind, this suggests that trying to use crime statistics to support either side of the argument is pointless. This should not be an argument about numbers. Edited to add: I'm assuming that Kallend's point was about not drawing false conclusions from statistics, because anyone who's looked at the full statistics knows that holders of concealed handgun licenses don't contribute in any significant way to gun crime in America.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #196 December 27, 2006 QuoteTry this one.....what is the percentage of industries (all) that are over $5 billion? that's a pretty vague question. But put simply, a company with revenues of 5B may be considered a midcap stock. A single office supply store (Staples) had revenues of 18B. Phillip Morris (now known as Atria), otoh, did 70B in sales. That's why big tobacco has clout, and the gun industry has to make deals with the White House (see Smith & Wesson). It's the 4-5 million members of the NRA that give the gun industry clout, not the size of the market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #197 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI know what average means. But for every 30K exotic SBS or O/U, there are probably a hundred 870's out there. If there are a bunch of 30k shotguns out there than I stand corrected, but I truly doubt that to be the case. If you want to take the time... calculate the average of this page and get back to me with your math. Some people pay more for their firearms. It's all about the level of quality you want. This is ridiculous, and really bad math. You can't factor out all those $300 shotguns. Just can't do it. And despite having two H&Ks and 2 Sigs, I believe I've only exceeded $800 once on 6 pistols, and that's with California prices. Got the P7M8 for $699 in 2000 or so. I suppose if quality for semis is defined by 1911 or nothing, then you got me. Bet you own a Harley too. If it were really this big industry, then why does the NRA keep hitting us up for contributions? Atria doesn't, yet their dividend continues to grow despite the fact that the government makes more on a pack of cigarrettes than they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #198 December 27, 2006 Quotethat's a pretty vague questionNo, it is actually a very specific, quantitative, objective and obtainable. Now the reason for asking the question may be vagueTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #199 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuotethat's a pretty vague questionNo, it is actually a very specific, quantitative, objective and obtainable. Now the reason for asking the question may be vague ok, define industry. I think you're going to have a hard time finding a list out there of revenues by industry that has "gun industry, domestic, civilian." And were it to exist, it probably will lack the secondary market (private sales), so you won't like it anyway. But I can tell you that market capitization tends to be close to 1:1 with annual revenues for most companies (excludes tech, biotech for example) and 10B is the dividing line between big company and mid sized. So yeah, it towers over the skydiving industry. But that's not exactly saying much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Richards 0 #200 December 27, 2006 QuoteWhy only "collectors"? What is a collector? Someone who collects. QuoteYet, you, who wants to portray yourself as the reasonable listener, has ignored all that, and you're back trying to ban them again. You're not listening, and you're ideas are not reasonable. In light of all the hype against these assault rifles (by whatever definition) I felt that it was reasonable to ask "would it be the end of the world if we made that concession. It was just a question. I was curious as to why it would be the end of the world if we couldn't own a 50 cal. I felt that since it might calm the anti-gun crowd down why at least pose the question. Douva came back with an argument as to why we should not consider such a concession yet you still cannot seem to see that I have never stated that I liked the idea of such a ban. Can you please show me a quote of my own words where I stated that assault rifles should be banned? I seem to be having these words repeatedly put in my mouth QuoteQuoteI simply felt that if the anti-gun crowd has that much of an issue with them then it was at least worth posing the question... Do we need assault rifles...I don't know. I think the debate will at some point center around where society draws the line. Questions are fine. Your questions were answered. Wha'ts not fine, is just automatically banning something just because some part of society doesn't understand them and doesn't like them. Banning things should be based only upon facts and logic. The so-called assault weapons were banned for 10 years, and had no effect on crime. Then the ban expired and they were legal again, and there's still no effect on crime. This is a non-issue. It's only about hype and scare tactics by the anti-gun folks. I shoot a so-called "assault weapon", an AR15, monthly in shooting competition, at 200, 300 and 600 yards, at paper targets. Does this scare you? You started off articulating your point and then you had to resort back to "Does this scare you" You are at least starting to sound like you would rather a discussion than a fight. QuoteQuoteIn fairness, I see no reason why a guy who likes to colect firearms will become a criminal... Correct. And likewise, there's the same no reason to believe that the average gun owner will become a criminal either. Is that not what I said? And you're suggesting what? That gun owners should just lay down and surrender to the gun-control folks?*** Straw man My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 8 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #196 December 27, 2006 QuoteTry this one.....what is the percentage of industries (all) that are over $5 billion? that's a pretty vague question. But put simply, a company with revenues of 5B may be considered a midcap stock. A single office supply store (Staples) had revenues of 18B. Phillip Morris (now known as Atria), otoh, did 70B in sales. That's why big tobacco has clout, and the gun industry has to make deals with the White House (see Smith & Wesson). It's the 4-5 million members of the NRA that give the gun industry clout, not the size of the market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #197 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI know what average means. But for every 30K exotic SBS or O/U, there are probably a hundred 870's out there. If there are a bunch of 30k shotguns out there than I stand corrected, but I truly doubt that to be the case. If you want to take the time... calculate the average of this page and get back to me with your math. Some people pay more for their firearms. It's all about the level of quality you want. This is ridiculous, and really bad math. You can't factor out all those $300 shotguns. Just can't do it. And despite having two H&Ks and 2 Sigs, I believe I've only exceeded $800 once on 6 pistols, and that's with California prices. Got the P7M8 for $699 in 2000 or so. I suppose if quality for semis is defined by 1911 or nothing, then you got me. Bet you own a Harley too. If it were really this big industry, then why does the NRA keep hitting us up for contributions? Atria doesn't, yet their dividend continues to grow despite the fact that the government makes more on a pack of cigarrettes than they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #198 December 27, 2006 Quotethat's a pretty vague questionNo, it is actually a very specific, quantitative, objective and obtainable. Now the reason for asking the question may be vagueTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #199 December 27, 2006 QuoteQuotethat's a pretty vague questionNo, it is actually a very specific, quantitative, objective and obtainable. Now the reason for asking the question may be vague ok, define industry. I think you're going to have a hard time finding a list out there of revenues by industry that has "gun industry, domestic, civilian." And were it to exist, it probably will lack the secondary market (private sales), so you won't like it anyway. But I can tell you that market capitization tends to be close to 1:1 with annual revenues for most companies (excludes tech, biotech for example) and 10B is the dividing line between big company and mid sized. So yeah, it towers over the skydiving industry. But that's not exactly saying much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #200 December 27, 2006 QuoteWhy only "collectors"? What is a collector? Someone who collects. QuoteYet, you, who wants to portray yourself as the reasonable listener, has ignored all that, and you're back trying to ban them again. You're not listening, and you're ideas are not reasonable. In light of all the hype against these assault rifles (by whatever definition) I felt that it was reasonable to ask "would it be the end of the world if we made that concession. It was just a question. I was curious as to why it would be the end of the world if we couldn't own a 50 cal. I felt that since it might calm the anti-gun crowd down why at least pose the question. Douva came back with an argument as to why we should not consider such a concession yet you still cannot seem to see that I have never stated that I liked the idea of such a ban. Can you please show me a quote of my own words where I stated that assault rifles should be banned? I seem to be having these words repeatedly put in my mouth QuoteQuoteI simply felt that if the anti-gun crowd has that much of an issue with them then it was at least worth posing the question... Do we need assault rifles...I don't know. I think the debate will at some point center around where society draws the line. Questions are fine. Your questions were answered. Wha'ts not fine, is just automatically banning something just because some part of society doesn't understand them and doesn't like them. Banning things should be based only upon facts and logic. The so-called assault weapons were banned for 10 years, and had no effect on crime. Then the ban expired and they were legal again, and there's still no effect on crime. This is a non-issue. It's only about hype and scare tactics by the anti-gun folks. I shoot a so-called "assault weapon", an AR15, monthly in shooting competition, at 200, 300 and 600 yards, at paper targets. Does this scare you? You started off articulating your point and then you had to resort back to "Does this scare you" You are at least starting to sound like you would rather a discussion than a fight. QuoteQuoteIn fairness, I see no reason why a guy who likes to colect firearms will become a criminal... Correct. And likewise, there's the same no reason to believe that the average gun owner will become a criminal either. Is that not what I said? And you're suggesting what? That gun owners should just lay down and surrender to the gun-control folks?*** Straw man My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
