Marijuana = USA's biggest cash crop.

[Butters 0]

I recommend the follwing reading material to understand some of the history regarding hemp/marijuana.

The Emporer Wears No Clothes - Jack Herer

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jcd11235 0]

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I never quoted any prices.

Well why not? How else are we supposed to know how much things cost in your neck of the woods?

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[jcd11235 0]

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I recommend the follwing reading material to understand some of the history regarding hemp/marijuana.

The Emporer Wears No Clothes - Jack Herer

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone brought up Mr. Herer.

IMO, this book did a disservice to those seeking legalization. While it has A LOT of good information in it, it also has a lot of over statements. The result is an inability for the reader to separate the facts from the bullshit, since they are mixed together.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[masterrig 1]

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You mean to tell me that, someone swacked-out on crack is less a danger than a drunk? Have you ever seen anyone on meth? Heroin? I don't know where you get your information but it sure differs from what I've 'seen' and read.

Yes, that is what I am saying. I've known and seen addiction from all kinds of drugs.

I would bet a dollar against a donut that I have been witness to far more drug use than you have, judging by your posts. I have also read quite a few scientific studies on the subject, although I admittedly avoid the propaganda, except to see ludicrous examples of how dangerous drugs are.

_____________________________________

I've seen enough of it to where I just don't care to be around anyone using that shit. I 'survived' the 60's and lost a good friend to acid. I've seen some good folks totally screw-up their lives from booze and dope. How much do I have to 'see' to start thinking that there is good in any of it?


Chuck

[Butters 0]

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I recommend the follwing reading material to understand some of the history regarding hemp/marijuana.

The Emporer Wears No Clothes - Jack Herer

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone brought up Mr. Herer.

IMO, this book did a disservice to those seeking legalization. While it has A LOT of good information in it, it also has a lot of over statements. The result is an inability for the reader to separate the facts from the bullshit, since they are mixed together.

I agree that you have to be able to seperate the facts but you have to do that with almost all sources of information currently available.

PS: Can anyone tell me how many overdoses per year and overdoses total the government has on record for marijuana?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[masterrig 1]

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I never quoted any prices.

Well why not? How else are we supposed to know how much things cost in your neck of the woods?

_________________________

I guess, you'll just have to come check it out for yourself.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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There are alot more smokers out there than you all think...
Some one up on the post said, what if people are using drugs on work site,,, people are actually high all the time,, ever wonder about your co-worker who has to hit the bathroom every 20 min, and had sinus problem for years now,,, person is a coke addict,, dude with red eye who is eating Cheetos? stoner...
Marijuana is everywhere.....I've been seeing weed since middle school.. and I live in one of the safest city in nation they say...
Drive through 5 freeway after school,,, you'll see ton of kids smoking on the freeway while driving,,, one of the safest place not to get caught by cops.....
People who is smoking weed are going to smoke weed regardless of law...
I went to a Roger Waters concert that was in Hollywood bowl,, so many people were smoking at same time, whole Hollywood bowl smelled like Kush..
If there are no smoker out there,, smoke shop wouldn't sell 2000 dollar bong... this bong had 5 chamber made out of clear glass, it was art....
I hope that one day, we can all pass the peace pipe along the bonfire at DZ after a long day of jumping...
add acoustic guitar with some beer to chase cottonmouth.. just imagine dude... if you finish jumping early you can hit the bong, and watch people swoop....sick..........

and where did you come up with an idea that o=35 bucks???

normal pricing my area
g=20 8er=45-75 quad=90-120 o=250-400
cutie=950-1050 hp=1750-2000 p= 3750-5000

______________________________--

I'm well aware, folks use shit on the job. I worked for over 16-yrs. for a fuel and oil distributor. One of the propane truck drivers at that company nearly killed himself when the truck he was operating blew-up. As it turned-out, he was tokin' on a number while filling a 1,000-gal. propane tank. We had another driver 'total' another truck while 'smoking'. Those are just a couple stories. I guess, it's like when I was a kid and heard some adult, who was drunk, proclaim that he did his best driving with a six-pack in him.


Chuck

[Shotgun 1]

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> Legalization advocates just want to get fucked up.

I think it should be legal. Hardest drug I've ever done is alcohol.

Umm, I'd consider alcohol to be a much "harder" drug than marijuana, so you might want to clarify that statement.

I also think that marijuana should be legal, but I don't smoke it anymore (and have no desire to).

[jcd11235 0]

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I've seen enough of it to where I just don't care to be around anyone using that shit. I 'survived' the 60's and lost a good friend to acid. I've seen some good folks totally screw-up their lives from booze and dope. How much do I have to 'see' to start thinking that there is good in any of it?

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the acid claim. The lowest LD50 dose I was able to find is 300 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. That LD50 dose was for a rabbit. After that was 1800 micrograms for a wild bird. The next lowest was 16 milligrams per kg of body weight, for a rat and a guinea pig. A typical heavy recreational dose for a person is about 250 micrograms. That works out to less than 4 micrograms per kilogram for a 150 lb person, which is well under any LD50 dosage. Source

That your friend died of an accident that LSD played an indirect role in might be believable. That happens all the time with alcohol, too.

If you are basing your conclusions on the experience of one short decade, you have a pretty limited sample compared to some many of us.

I can respect your decision to avoid being around "that shit." I feel the same way about drunks, so I avoid bars. I've never met a druggie that was more annoying than a drunk, at least due to their respective inebriating substances.

Like Billvon, alcohol is the hardest drug I've ever used, and I have used A LOT of different drugs. I've admittedly slowed WAY down in my old age, but I'm not about to disregard years of first hand experience that is almost uniformly contrary to anti-drug propaganda.

I'm not trying to convince you that drugs are good. However, most anyone with experience with both will tell you that illegal drugs aren't any worse (some would say not as bad) as alcohol.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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I agree that you have to be able to seperate the facts but you have to do that with almost all sources of information currently available.

PS: Can anyone tell me how many overdoses per year and overdoses total the government has on record for marijuana?

I agree most any source should be taken with a grain of salt.

AFAIK, there has never been any deaths directly related to cannabis. Even Donald Tashkin, MD (UCLA), who has spent his life trying to prove how dangerous smoking marijuana is for the lungs has been unable to link marijuana with emphysema or respiratory cancer. One of his more recent studies actually shows a slight negative correlation between marijuana smokers and lung cancer. (No additional studies have been done to see if there is a slight protective effect from smoking pot, or whether the results are a statistical anomaly.)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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AFAIK, there has never been any deaths directly related to cannabis

WRONG - I recall a 100 pounds bale falling on someone in a Cheech and Chong movie once.

recreational drugs are stupid - however, people have the right to be stupid as long as it doesn't interfere with others. I'd just as soon not see cigarettes or pot, though, because the smoke is intrusive on those that don't care to participate.

eat, drink or inject (but don't burn and blow) anything you'd like. just stay off the road and off the job and away from children while doing it and until it wears off.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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recreational drugs are stupid - however, people have the right to be stupid as long as it doesn't interfere with others.

Different people enjoy different recreational activities. What interests me is drug use aimed at expanding conciousness (relates more to the religous use than the recreational use) and medical use.

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I'd just as soon not see cigarettes or pot, though, because the smoke is intrusive on those that don't care to participate.

eat, drink or inject (but don't burn and blow) anything you'd like.

Agreed, second hand smoke is intrusive and should be avoided.

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just stay off the road and off the job and away from children while doing it and until it wears off.

Agreed, you should not operate heavy machinery or drive (or do many other things) while under the influence of marijuana. There are many reasons why minors should not be around nor use marijuana but that should not be a basis to stop adults from using marijuana.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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What interests me is drug use aimed at expanding conciousness (relates more to the religous use than the recreational use) and medical use..

medical use - completely different subject. Let's call that pharmaceuticals

"expanding consciousness?" I personally find that to be a complete crock. Awareness comes from self control and fitness and introspection, trying to accelerate that by 'artificial' means gives false perspective. At best, it would be a lazy short cut to something that's not really truth. But everyone has an opinion.

(note, I'm not advocating making it all illegal or legal. Just my personal opinion. adults can do what they like as far as I'm concerned - just so they don't intrude on others' rights while doing it)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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"expanding consciousness?" I personally find that to be a complete crock. Awareness comes from self control and fitness and introspection, trying to accelerate that by 'artificial' means gives false perspective. At best, it would be a lazy short cut to something that's not really truth. But everyone has an opinion.

The concept of drug use to expand consciousness stems from how the brain developed and works and the way drugs (temporarily) change the way it works. I am not referring to the person that takes some drug, hallucinates, and then states they expanded their consciousness. It does take self control, introspection, etc...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

'kay. I assumed a different basis for your original statement (the doper that calls his high "expanding his consciousness") and stand corrected. However, I still believe that natural bio-feedback can allow the body to create the effects themselves without any artificial boosts.

of course, you will have to go into solitude in the Himalayas for about 60 decades. But, it is SO worth it.

You're pretty thoughtful today for a guy with a lame hand.

I'm rather obtuse today, but it's close to the holiday break.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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'kay. I assumed a different basis for your original statement (the doper that calls his high "expanding his consciousness") and stand corrected. However, I still believe that natural bio-feedback can allow the body to create the effects themselves without any artificial boosts.

No, I was not referring to the doper.

Agreed, but drugs often produce less negative side effects than other methods I have tried such as sleep deprivation, starvation, ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jcd11235 0]

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Agreed, you should not ... drive ... while under the influence of marijuana.

I think you might find these studies interesting.

The results of this study indicate clearly that alcohol and marijuana
are distinctly different drugs. The effects produced on the performance
measures were qualitatively and quantitatively different. In addition, the differences in the nature of the drug-induced subjective intoxication and the self-reported changes in mood effects such as anxiety and alertness, strongly suggested different drug actions.
. . .

Evidence is presented which suggests that under the influence of alcohol, subjects engage in a "speed-accuracy trade-off". They are prepared to make a hasty response to a question rather than to spend more time to ensure a correct answer. This effect could be related to a risk-taking behaviour. The results with marijuana on the other hand suggested a slower and more careful approach to the problem, though as with alcohol, an increased error rate in responses was recorded.
. . .

The results strongly suggest that the performance deficits and mood changes produced by alcohol are of a greater magnitude than those produced by marijuana.
Source

Abstract: This article concerns the effects of marijuana smoking on actual driving performance. It presents the major results of one laboratory and three on-road driving studies. The latter were conducted on a closed section of a primary highway, on a highway in the presence of other traffic and in urban traffic, respectively. This program of research has shown that marijuana produces only a moderate degree of driving impairment which is related to the consumed THC dose. The impairment manifests itself mainly in the ability to maintain a steady lateral position on the road, but its magnitude is not exceptional in comparison with changes produced by many medicinal drugs and alcohol. Drivers under the influence of marijuana retain insight into their performance and will compensate where they can (e.g., by increasing distance between vehicles or increasing effort). As a consequence, THC's adverse effects on driving performance appeared relatively small in the tests employed in this program.
. . .

The results of the studies corroborate those of previous driving simulator and closed-course tests by indicating that THC in inhaled doses up to 300†µg/kg has significant, yet not dramatic, dose-related impairing effects on driving performance. Standard deviation of lateral position in the road-tracking test was the most sensitive measure for revealing THC's adverse effects. This is because road-tracking is primarily controlled by an automatic information processing system which operates outside of conscious control. The process is relatively impervious to environmental changes, but highly vulnerable to internal factors that retard the flow of information through the system. THC and many other drugs are among these factors. When they interfere with the process that restricts SDLP, there is little the afflicted individual can do by way of compensation to restore the situation. Car-following and, to a greater extent, city driving performance depend more on controlled information processing and are therefore more accessible for compensatory mechanisms that reduce the decrements or abolish them entirely.

THC's effects after doses up to 300†µg/kg never exceeded alcohol's at BACs of 0.08†g% and were in no way unusual compared to many medicinal drugs (Robbe 1994). Yet THC's effects differ qualitatively from many other drugs, especially alcohol. Evidence from the present and previous studies strongly suggests that alcohol encourages risky driving whereas THC encourages greater caution, at least in experiments. Another way THC seems to differ qualitatively from many other drugs is that the former's users seem better able to compensate for its adverse effects while driving under the influence.


Source

A single glass of wine will impair your driving more than smoking a joint.
. . .

At present there is no accurate test that can reveal whether a driver has taken cannabis before driving, and developing one will not be easy. But even when this problem is cracked, another will remain - where to set the safety threshold for smoking cannabis.

Advocates of zero tolerance say there should be penalties for drivers caught with any amount of recently smoked cannabis in their body. The new research suggests that would only be credible if governments also adopted zero tolerance on drink driving.
. . .

The volunteers were given either enough alcohol to raise alcohol levels in the blood to 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres - about 60 per cent of Britain's legal limit of 80 mg/100 ml - or a specially prepared marijuana joint designed to deliver the same high typically experienced by smokers.

In the study, cannabis significantly affected only one criterion, known as tracking ability. Volunteers found it more difficult to hold a constant speed and follow the middle of the road accurately while driving around a figure-of-eight loop. The TRL researchers point out in their draft report that this test requires drivers to hold their concentration for a short time, a task which is particularly badly affected by the intoxicating effects of cannabis.

However, volunteers drinking the equivalent of a glass of wine fared worse than those who had smoked a joint.
. . .

But the study also found that drivers on cannabis tended to be aware of their intoxicated state, and drove more cautiously to compensate. Indeed, doped-up volunteers often rated themselves as being more impaired than police surgeons brought in to evaluate their sobriety.
Source

Here is another interesting study on cannabis and driving.


I'm not saying people should drive under the influence, but I think the general alarm at the possibility of it happening might be largely unfounded.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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Agreed, but drugs often produce less negative side effects than other methods I have tried such as sleep deprivation, starvation, ...

and cheaper.....

Admirable as it seems, still those are only ways to induce hallucination, not higher consciousness. Perhaps the exercise of interpreting hallucination provides insight into the subconscious, but hardly a spiritual journey. One can do that well rested and well fed and with a healthy and open and receptive conscious mind.

That said, if it works for you, knock yourself out. We'll be looking at psychological feedback as a performance enhancement if you and your (potential/eventual) 4-way team want to.

"Although I do believe that self deprivation is good for the soul, I'd rather wait until self deprivation is forced upon me rather than go looking for it." Hyram

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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"expanding consciousness?" I personally find that to be a complete crock. Awareness comes from self control and fitness and introspection, trying to accelerate that by 'artificial' means gives false perspective. At best, it would be a lazy short cut to something that's not really truth. But everyone has an opinion.

I remember reading in a philosophy text 2-3 years ago where a "mystic" (I'll use that term, as I don't remember the specific religion) wrote an essay describing a drug free mystical experience. A drug user wrote an essay about a drug induced hallucinatory experience. Readers of both essays were unable to determine which was which. Half of the people were incorrect.

Chemicals as entheogens is not a new concept at all. It is certainly not a crock or a lazy short cut to anything. Most who believe it is, have never taken a milligram or two of LSD, turned off the lights, and sat in a chair to be introspective for several hours. Many don't have the strength to be that introspective. They are too afraid of their own demons.

And that's just acid. Other substances have the potential to take you much further.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[masterrig 1]

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I've seen enough of it to where I just don't care to be around anyone using that shit. I 'survived' the 60's and lost a good friend to acid. I've seen some good folks totally screw-up their lives from booze and dope. How much do I have to 'see' to start thinking that there is good in any of it?

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the acid claim. The lowest LD50 dose I was able to find is 300 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. That LD50 dose was for a rabbit. After that was 1800 micrograms for a wild bird. The next lowest was 16 milligrams per kg of body weight, for a rat and a guinea pig. A typical heavy recreational dose for a person is about 250 micrograms. That works out to less than 4 micrograms per kilogram for a 150 lb person, which is well under any LD50 dosage. Source

That your friend died of an accident that LSD played an indirect role in might be believable. That happens all the time with alcohol, too.

If you are basing your conclusions on the experience of one short decade, you have a pretty limited sample compared to some many of us.

I can respect your decision to avoid being around "that shit." I feel the same way about drunks, so I avoid bars. I've never met a druggie that was more annoying than a drunk, at least due to their respective inebriating substances.

Like Billvon, alcohol is the hardest drug I've ever used, and I have used A LOT of different drugs. I've admittedly slowed WAY down in my old age, but I'm not about to disregard years of first hand experience that is almost uniformly contrary to anti-drug propaganda.

I'm not trying to convince you that drugs are good. However, most anyone with experience with both will tell you that illegal drugs aren't any worse (some would say not as bad) as alcohol.

__________________________________

Perhaps, I should have been more specific. Her death was the result of taking acid and a header out of a 4th. floor dorm room.
I haven't touched a drop of an alchoholic beverage in ten years. I agree with you about the annoying drunks. I met one or two in my day and probably was one!
Before I moved away from the city I used to live in, we had a neighbor who liked crack and he was not very pleasant to be around. I've worked with one or two meth-freaks and they, were just plain nuts. I'm not basing this on a ten year period of my life. Just what I've witnessed over all the years. I've learned, sobriety is much more fun.


Chuck

[jcd11235 0]

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Perhaps, I should have been more specific. Her death was the result of taking acid and a header out of a 4th. floor dorm room.

That sounds much more plausible. Part of responsible drug use is using drugs in a suitable setting. One of the benefits of legalizing drugs is that it becomes okay to teach people about minimizing risk and using drugs responsibly instead of learning everything by trial and error.

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I haven't touched a drop of an alchoholic beverage in ten years. I agree with you about the annoying drunks. I met one or two in my day and probably was one!

I'm sure I was one. I rarely drink these days myself. I'll raise a pint of Guinness and toast absent friends now and again. Plus I'll get myself pretty drunk once every year or two just so I remember how miserable a hangover feels. Other than those pretty rare occasions, I've managed to give up alcohol.

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Before I moved away from the city I used to live in, we had a neighbor who liked crack and he was not very pleasant to be around. I've worked with one or two meth-freaks and they, were just plain nuts. I'm not basing this on a ten year period of my life. Just what I've witnessed over all the years. I've learned, sobriety is much more fun.

Much of what makes drug addictions so bad is that the drugs cost so freakin' much. That's because they are illegal. The supply is artificially limited. Legalize, and the cost plummets. When the cost plummets, the lives of addicts no longer revolve around finding enough cash to support their habit.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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I recommend the follwing reading material to understand some of the history regarding hemp/marijuana.

The Emporer Wears No Clothes - Jack Herer

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone brought up Mr. Herer.

IMO, this book did a disservice to those seeking legalization. While it has A LOT of good information in it, it also has a lot of over statements. The result is an inability for the reader to separate the facts from the bullshit, since they are mixed together.

Also contributing is the probable mental state (shall we say?) of the reader....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[masterrig 1]

Much of what makes drug addictions so bad is that the drugs cost so freakin' much. That's because they are illegal. The supply is artificially limited. Legalize, and the cost plummets. When the cost plummets, the lives of addicts no longer revolve around finding enough cash to support their habit.

[Butters 0]

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Agreed, but drugs often produce less negative side effects than other methods I have tried such as sleep deprivation, starvation, ...

and cheaper.....

Admirable as it seems, still those are only ways to induce hallucination, not higher consciousness. Perhaps the exercise of interpreting hallucination provides insight into the subconscious, but hardly a spiritual journey. One can do that well rested and well fed and with a healthy and open and receptive conscious mind.

I listed those to show examples of methods that can have more negative side effects than drugs.

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That said, if it works for you, knock yourself out. We'll be looking at psychological feedback as a performance enhancement if you and your (potential/eventual) 4-way team want to.

Well, I plan on doing mostly relative work or tracking jumps next year so we'll wait and see.

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"Although I do believe that self deprivation is good for the soul, I'd rather wait until self deprivation is forced upon me rather than go looking for it." Hyram

I can not guarantee what will happen to me in this life or if there is another life after this one so I would rather not way until things are forced upon me because they may never be forced upon me.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Royd 0]

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As far as driving under the influence of cannabis, there have been multiple credible studies which indicate that cannabis has a smaller effect on a user's ability to drive as an over the counter cold medicine (used as directed). There's no reason to be any more worried about someone driving while under the influence of pot than thee is to worry about someone driving while under the influence of Sudafed.

So why add one more to the mix.
Back in the day [late 70's] when some hi grade stuff was starting to show up,I barely remember driving up an exit ramp that I was very familiar with, because everything looked like everything else.

Depth and time perception get screwed up.

There are some jobs where a person has to be at the top of their game every minute.

If it were legalized, which I don't have a problem with for medical purposes, some employers whould have to have mandatory testing just for the saftey of all employees.