Botched execution halts Floridas justice by death.

[jakee 1,595]

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exactly, the cost argument is the weakest one of all and is a real divergence from the issue - it's a straw grasped by those that won't stick to their real reasons for opposition (a rather machiavellian attitude that's a bit scary)

the death penalty would have to be specifically defined for specific crimes and with very specific levels and confidence of evidence

Just to be clear at who is 'grasping' Butters was the first to raise the issue of resources.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 2]

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In nearly all cases, certainly. But it also isn't an absolute case, some acts are truly so heinous that even an incarcerated living criminal can still be a threat to society for even the remote chance of them escaping.

Careful - that's usually the last-ditch (read: desperation) argument by death penalty proponents when all other arguments have been rebutted. Why? Because mathematically, one cannot completely eliminate the possibility that a life-sentenced prisoner might escape; and that absence of absolute mathematical certainty provides the rhetorical "hook". For what it's worth, many U.S. courts (including those in fairly conservative states) consider it to be a specious argument and have ruled that, at trial and/or in the death penalty phase of capital cases, it is improper – and reversible misconduct – for a prosecutor to argue "he might escape from prison and kill again" to a jury deciding whether or not to impose the death penalty.

[jakee 1,595]

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If this is your justification, then the converse would be true. Therefore, I disagree with your stance that we should have the death penalty if it turns out to cost more to incarcerate for life.

It is not my justification.

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I want to know what's best for society and find a way to make that position most cost effective. Not the other way around.

Again, I did not bring up the issue of cost effectiveness - I merely responded to it. If Butters supports the death penalty for cost effectiveness reasons then he should at least oppose the current system.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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Careful - that's usually the last-ditch (read: desperation) argument by death penalty proponents

no desperation here, my opposition is not based on opposing the concept of the death penalty, rather based on our crappy ability to administer it (you note it's a jury verdict....) I wanted to just clarify that this subject isn't absolute in any case. acknowledgement that there is never a 0% chance for perfect verdicts should also include the same generic consideration that there is never a situation where society would be better served by life in prison instead of death.

but it is a pretty generic chestnut and just as weak as those saying "what if it was you" or "what if it was your family member" type of tripe. I should stick to better discussions. Thanks for the reminder

I don't think a jury should impose the death penalty. it should be clearly defined. Juries are certainly not consistent in the ability to be objective rather than reactionary.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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It is not my justification.

Butters made the mistake of trying to appeal to the charitable in the crowd (instead of keeping killers alive, give the money to the poor and needy). It's not a very convincing discussion from either viewpoint as it comes from a very left viewpoint that money belongs to the government and not to those that paid the taxes in the first place.

His base argument about the potential need of a death penalty and the inevitability of a legal process that can't be perfect is a good argument though

see what happens when you get off you beliefs and try to kiss up to some emotional driven group???

heck if it's cheaper, I want my taxes reduced

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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and if it was your family member or lover that was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit that would be ok with you?

Would it be ok with you if they spent the rest of their life in solitary confinement?

Rather that than dead. At least if evidence comes to light that clears them they can then be released. Interesting that once again you didn't answer the question.

I didn't feel the need to answer your question. Of course I would not be ok with it but I'm not ok with dying due to malfunctioning gear while skydiving either but it can and does happen even if you do everything right and I understand and accept those risks.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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It is not my justification.

Butters made the mistake of trying to appeal to the charitable in the crowd (instead of keeping killers alive, give the money to the poor and needy). It's not a very convincing discussion from either viewpoint as it comes from a very left viewpoint that money belongs to the government and not to those that paid the taxes in the first place.

His base argument about the potential need of a death penalty and the inevitability of a legal process that can't be perfect is a good argument though

see what happens when you get off you beliefs and try to kiss up to some emotional driven group???

heck if it's cheaper, I want my taxes reduced

I still believe a properly functioning judicial system could minimize resources especially in cases involving the death penalty. However, I will agree with you that the resource argument for using or not using the death penalty is not the best arguement and will not mention it again.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[BannanaGirl 0]

Has also anyone considered the fact that if someone is wrongly convicted and executed that the real perpertrator continues to be free.

It does seem seem that the prosceuction becomes so obssesed with chasing the wrong guy and loses the thread of the investigation that how many more victims come from a wrong verdict.

Like it has been said earlier what with the advancement of DNA testing and 20-30 year old cases now re-investigated wrongly convicted people have been set free -thankful not having been executed.

I get shivers when these people walk free because the real criminal has been out there during the length of that persons sentence most likely commiting further crimes. Again this is another failing in an already inadequate justice system.

[billvon 3,118]

>We could do things to minimize the resources used . . .

Don't you think we do that now? Wardens and prison officials aren't generally incompetent, unless forced to act that way by the public.

Case in point. A while back a prison bought some TV's for inmates to watch in common rooms. They were small (20" or so) used color TV's running off the prison's antenna. They'd also use them for "message from the warden" things and as part of the PA system. Some journalist got news of this and wrote some "It's obscene how these vile murdering thugs have color cable TV paid for by you and me!" article.

So the warden told the prison supervisors to fix the problem. They spent days scouring the county for black and white TV's - and paying top dollar for them, since they needed them quickly (and they're no longer made.) They later disconnected the CATV system, so the TV's could no longer be used for prison announcements. But at least they didn't have color TV!

[jakee 1,595]

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His base argument about the potential need of a death penalty and the inevitability of a legal process that can't be perfect is a good argument though

Where is that argument, and what is the potential need for a death penalty?

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see what happens when you get off you beliefs and try to kiss up to some emotional driven group???

heck if it's cheaper, I want my taxes reduced

I have no idea what you're talking about. My objection to the death penalty does not and never has had anything to do with cost.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

If that is your worry it doesn't make a difference if we kill the innocent or bang them up.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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Has also anyone considered the fact that if someone is wrongly convicted and executed that the real perpertrator continues to be free.

Nope, only O.J. Simpson seems to care.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I have no idea what you're talking about. My objection to the death penalty does not and never has had anything to do with cost.

you take yourself very seriously......

actually I was teasing Butters about using the "maybe it's better spent on charity argument"

I can dissect that sentence for you if you like and explain it simply. (Butters left his basic argument and offered the red herring - as you pointed out - to give the 'perceived - as you pointed out - savings to charities of various kinds. Thus kissing up to the bleeding hearts to draw them to his conclusion - which is actually based on a very different set of criteria. the attempt crashed and burned because it's a specious argument at the very base of it.)


as for the other bit, just because you don't acknowledge the debate, doesn't mean it isn't a good discussion (regardless of your personal position) - frankly, your the one that's shorted by taking that tack. Even if you are con, the point is to understand both the pro and the con. If you are unable to do that, then you're better served just sitting in front of a mirror. (or a computer)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,595]

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you take yourself very seriously......

You would be surprised...

I got the taxes joke, I just seriously could not decifer the other sentence!

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as for the other bit, just because you don't acknowledge the debate, doesn't mean it isn't a good discussion (regardless of your personal position) - frankly, your the one that's shorted by taking that tack.

I looked through the thread (and the other one) and I could not find where he layed out any other argument for the death penalty than efficiency - I was asking you to point me to it in case I had missed it.

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If you are unable to do that, then you're better served just sitting in front of a mirror.

If I happen to catch sight of myself walking past a mirror I'll be set for a good few hours!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

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actually I was teasing Butters about using the "maybe it's better spent on charity argument"

Hey, give me a break, given the crowd I thought the arguement might actually get across better (many posts seem to be based on, how would you feel, how would I feel, what if this, what if that, ...).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

{who's said the taxes part was a joke}

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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actually I was teasing Butters about using the "maybe it's better spent on charity argument"

Hey, give me a break, given the crowd I thought the arguement might actually get across better (many posts seem to be based on, how would you feel, how would I feel, what if this, what if that, ...).

ya know, a lot of people have thought about sinking to that level......

be strong, stick to your points, don't give in to the desparation that so cravenly eats away at your soul, those are lazy arguments and not worth the ink it's written in,...er,,,...er

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

Yea Butters get a grip!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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I looked through the thread (and the other one) and I could not find where he layed out any other argument for the death penalty than efficiency - I was asking you to point me to it in case I had missed it.

The argument was that there are situations where a person can not be rehabilitated and there serves no purpose to have them serve life without parole.

These people are a cancer to the body of society and should be removed (incarcerated) and disposed (executed) of accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Skyrad 0]

Who is to tell who can and who can't be rehabilitated?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,595]

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I looked through the thread (and the other one) and I could not find where he layed out any other argument for the death penalty than efficiency - I was asking you to point me to it in case I had missed it.

The argument was that there are situations where a person can not be rehabilitated and there serves no purpose to have them serve life without parole.

These people are a cancer to the body of society and should be removed (incarcerated) and disposed (executed) of accordingly.

Thanks.

Absolutely there are those who will never be rehabilitated, I question the benefit of taking the final step (execution) when permanent incarceration has already removed them from society. I'm not particularly bothered by the idea of executing the most sadistic of murderers, I am simply not willing to do it if it means executing any innocent people. Our system cannot be made good enough to guarantee that

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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Who is to tell who can and who can't be rehabilitated?

They have little green stripes across their foreheads

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

Well why didn't you say! that changes everything

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Royd 0]

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Who is to tell who can and who can't be rehabilitated?

You give them the resourses that they need[ basic education, if that is called for] and watch them closely. If they choose not to move toward reentering society by society's standard, then consider them beyond help. You have to draw a line somewhere.

[Royd 0]

Maybe I'm a sick bastard, but I think that a person should die in the same way that they chose to take someone else's life, only more slowly.

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Funny, in a different thread I'm sure you claimed to be a follower of Jesus. I can't imagine Jesus condoning your thinking. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount?

The natural man is still alive.

Theives and liars can come to Christ. It doesn't mean that the old nature just goes away.