Botched execution halts Floridas justice by death.

[rehmwa 2]

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You are right my only feelings would be for revenge. .........As for removing the threat from soceity in a clinically and non emotional way, it is clear this is nigh on impossible to do.

You are very honest and sincere in your postings. Thank you.

I think there are those that could be less swayed by emotive feelings and be able to administer standardized justice. The trouble is identifying those of that nature that also still have a strong sense of justice and parity, and the intellect to hold that type of position (judges are supposed to be just that and we can all agree, that even among the juge ranks, the ideal personality is still very, very rare). I suspect it would be a very small sliver of the general population......Then, of course, objective and critical thinkers are needed everywhere, so getting them to desire a career in justice would also be tough. (and there are a ton of those that think they are objective and clear thinking that clearly aren't, they'd be tough to deal with.)

(I used to think it was more common to be able to do the right thing without personal bias, but I've since moved from that position - especially when just having regular conversations or even reading these forums....there are still those that have strong moral codes (but that is declining), but that code is still fueled on emotions. That won't do it....)

I don't have an issue with the "concept" of having a death penalty. I think it would be a very useful tool of society. However, I don't believe we are civilized or sophisticated "enough" to be able to do it correctly (isn't that the opposite of the emotional anti-DP advodates). Best to just have life sentences until we can do it right - if ever. (I stay on the debates about the concept rather than the application, just because it's more challenging. This might be the first time I've actually acknowledged the application side.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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Two points. One, the death penalty wastes far more resources than incarceration for life long before the execution itself is reached.

This is not because of the execution, it is because of the time spent on death row.

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Two, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty ones?

This is covered in the thread Innocent vs. Guilty.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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Funny, in a different thread I'm sure you claimed to be a follower of Jesus. I can't imagine Jesus condoning your thinking. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount?

There are plenty of conditional christians in this country...and many of them are bloodthirsty. Killing in the name of the state( you and me) is not very uncommon now is it. Our presiudent.. the one with the hotine from GOD.. seems to be the most bloodthirsty of them all.

[jakee 1,596]

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Two, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty ones?

This is covered in the thread Innocent vs. Guilty.

No, it is not. That thread is focused on the discussion of incarceration.

My question stands, how many innocent people are you willing to kill in order to be able to execute the guilty ones?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

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Two, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty ones?

This is covered in the thread Innocent vs. Guilty.

No, it is not. That thread is focused on the discussion of incarceration.

My question stands, how many innocent people are you willing to kill in order to be able to execute the guilty ones?

That thread is focused on innocent people being found guilty (regardless of punishment).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,596]

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That thread is focused on innocent people being found guilty (regardless of punishment).

The death penalty is fundamentally different from all other current methods of punishment. Once enacted, it cannot be reversed.

For the third time, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty, or are you too chicken to answer the question?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

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That thread is focused on innocent people being found guilty (regardless of punishment).

The death penalty is fundamentally different from all other current methods of punishment. Once enacted, it cannot be reversed.

For the third time, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty, or are you too chicken to answer the question?

1/10,000 - 5/10,000 (Innocent / Guilty)

There are people around the world that lack the necessities such as food, water, and shelter and I would rather they be given these necessities than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country#USA. I understand and accept that I may be innocent but found guilty and executed because the risk is low and the reward is high.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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That thread is focused on innocent people being found guilty (regardless of punishment).

that thread explictily says jailed..... some might consider the death penalty punishment to require a lower risk is incorrect verdict than incarceration. I'd allow a much HIGHER risk of incorrect verdict for minor sentences (fines, short jail stays, etc) vs incarceration. so why not the other side too. It would drive the correct allocation of resources to work harder on correct verdicts for higher consequence punishments......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

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because the risk is low and the reward is high.

And just what reward would that be?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

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There are people around the world that lack the necessities such as food, water, and shelter and I would rather they be given these necessities than http://en.wikipedia.org/...llers_by_country#USA. I understand and accept that I may be innocent but found guilty and executed because the risk is low and the reward is high.

I think that is an immoral standard. Society at large is not a military unit in battle, where sustaining some fatal casualties is tolerated for the sake of the mission.

[rehmwa 2]

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because the risk is low and the reward is high.

And just what reward would that be?

if you take the list of reasons why we award punishment and eliminate all but the one about the specific criminal doing the act again (eliminate deterrence, revenge, closure, etc) then that is the reward, clearly. However, that also allows clarity in that the death penalty would be an extremely rare penalty. MUCH rarer than it is even today. And much simpler to implement also.

It would also drive the need of proof to an extremely low tolerance of possibe error......

I noted elsewhere, I don't think we, as a society, are evolved enough to be able to responsibly have a death penalty. We aren't objective enough.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

I think I'd most likey agree with you. As for the 'reward' the same 'reward' can be had whilst removing the risk of killing innocent people simply by having life imprisonment.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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that thread explictily says jailed.....

There is no mention of jail.

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What percent of innocent people are you willing to find guilty so that guilty people are not found innocent?

Example: Choosing 0.50 means you are willing to find 50 innocent people guilty so that 10,000 guilty people are not found innocent.

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some might consider the death penalty punishment to require a lower risk is incorrect verdict than incarceration. I'd allow a much HIGHER risk of incorrect verdict for minor sentences (fines, short jail stays, etc) vs incarceration. so why not the other side too. It would drive the correct allocation of resources to work harder on correct verdicts for higher consequence punishments......

Agreed, I just did not want to get into the differences because then I would be asked to define the differences and ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

In nearly all cases, certainly. But it also isn't an absolute case, some acts are truly so heinous that even an incarcerated living criminal can still be a threat to society for even the remote chance of them escaping.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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because the risk is low and the reward is high.

And just what reward would that be?

The reward is to have justice and to not waste the finite resources we have on this planet.

The arguement put forth is that we should not have the death penalty because we are not perfect. I do not believe that we should stop doing anything in society based on not being able to do it perfectly instead of whether it is right or wrong. I believe we should not do what is wrong or what is right but can not be done to an acceptable level of error. I believe we should do what is right to an acceptable level of error and strive for perfection in reducing that level of error.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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There is no mention of jail....

you are right, but within the first 10 posts, it pretty well defined itself to that.

if we'd included death penalty as part of it that thread would have dissolved to complete chaos (more so)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

and if it was your family member or lover that was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit that would be ok with you?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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and if it was your family member or lover that was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit that would be ok with you?

Would it be ok with you if they spent the rest of their life in solitary confinement?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,596]

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There are people around the world that lack the necessities such as food, water, and shelter and I would rather they be given these necessities than http://en.wikipedia.org/...llers_by_country#USA.

Then you should oppose the death penalty!!

It takes far more of your tax money to execute a man than to incarcerate him for life.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

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There are people around the world that lack the necessities such as food, water, and shelter and I would rather they be given these necessities than http://en.wikipedia.org/...llers_by_country#USA.

Then you should oppose the death penalty!!

It takes far more of your tax money to execute a man than to incarcerate him for life.

Once again, that is not because of the death penalty but because of death row. We could do things to minimize the resources used while on death row but that is a different topic.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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Once again, that is not because of the death penalty but because of death row. We could do things to minimize the resources used while on death row but that is a different topic.

exactly, the cost argument is the weakest one of all and is a real divergence from the issue - it's a straw grasped by those that won't stick to their real reasons for opposition (a rather machiavellian attitude that's a bit scary)

the death penalty would have to be specifically defined for specific crimes and with very specific levels and confidence of evidence

then it would need to be administered immediately

that would be most cost and socially efficent

the fact that it costs so much and that there are huge delays is simply a clear indicator that it is being incorrectly applied and also that it is pursued way too much

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

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and if it was your family member or lover that was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit that would be ok with you?

Would it be ok with you if they spent the rest of their life in solitary confinement?

Rather that than dead. At least if evidence comes to light that clears them they can then be released. Interesting that once again you didn't answer the question.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,596]

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Once again, that is not because of the death penalty but because of death row. We could do things to minimize the resources used while on death row but that is a different topic.

If you minimise the costs of the death row appeals process the number of wrongful executions would rise, making the number of innocents executed even more unpalatable.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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Then you should oppose the death penalty!!

It takes far more of your tax money to execute a man than to incarcerate him for life.

If this is your justification, then the converse would be true. Therefore, I disagree with your stance that we should have the death penalty if it turns out to cost more to incarcerate for life.

I want to know what's best for society and find a way to make that position most cost effective. Not the other way around.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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If you minimise the costs of the death row appeals process the number of wrongful executions would rise, making the number of innocents executed even more unpalatable.

financial deterrence?????

again, the logic is totally backwards. cost should not drive the criteria for assessing a penalty of death. This is not the best way to progress your position.

why would argue for a different standard of justice for the rich advantageous over everyone else????

edit: I know you don't "intend" to make those cases, but it's the net effect.

If you have a moral issue against people owning car insurance, would you go out and purposely cause accidents and graffitti cars in order to drive up premiums until the companies go out of business???

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants