Good riddance Rummy

[akarunway 1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061215/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/bush_rumsfeld_7

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[FallRate 0]

Not meaning to be irritable, but the first thing I do when I sit down at my computer is look over the latest news. There is really no need to make a post simply to provide a link to a news story which is readily available.

FallRate

[kallend 2,151]

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Not meaning to be irritable, but the first thing I do when I sit down at my computer is look over the latest news. There is really no need to make a post simply to provide a link to a news story which is readily available.

FallRate

If no-one did that it would remove about 90% of the threads on here.

I agree with the "good riddance" sentiment, but as long as Bush is CinC I don't hold out much hope for improvement. I hope I'm wrong, but I see him as having too much ego at stake in his war to make hard decisions

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[akarunway 1]

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Not meaning to be irritable, but the first thing I do when I sit down at my computer is look over the latest news. There is really no need to make a post simply to provide a link to a news story which is readily available.

FallRate

It was those who do what I do and go here first

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Good riddance Rummy motherfucker

Fixed.

[billvon 3,120]

A song dedicated to old Don:

I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting through war

And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs

. . .

They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire

[jgoose71 0]

A lot of people don't like us over there and hate to see the death toll climbing every day. But as a guy who has been over there I can say that if we don't take the fight over there they will come over here and try to turn the U.S. into a war zone. They are born a raised on hate.

The lies that got us there doesn't change the fact that we would have had to go there sooner or later.

So other than nuking the whole place out of existance, does anyone have any ideas on how to get out of there? Keep in mind that just pulling out would lead to them just pulling together freely and attacking the U.S.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[kallend 2,151]

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A lot of people don't like us over there and hate to see the death toll climbing every day. But as a guy who has been over there I can say that if we don't take the fight over there they will come over here and try to turn the U.S. into a war zone. They are born a raised on hate.

The lies that got us there doesn't change the fact that we would have had to go there sooner or later.

So other than nuking the whole place out of existance, does anyone have any ideas on how to get out of there? Keep in mind that just pulling out would lead to them just pulling together freely and attacking the U.S.

I'm sure the Nazis had the same attitude about the French, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Czech and Polish terrorists freedom fighters in WWII. However, now that Germany doesn't occupy these nations any more we don't see bunches of Dutchmen terrorizing Germany.

People don't naturally hate others living 5 thousand miles away. We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for generations and that's why they hate us. Even their national boundaries were imposed on them by the west.

Remember how the Colonial Americans resented British interference in their affairs?

If we'd just try minding out own business for a while...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jgoose71 0]

People don't naturally hate others living 5 thousand miles away. We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for generations and that's why they hate us. Even their national boundaries were imposed on them by the west.
***

Your right, people don't naturally hate others, they are taught. They are brought up believing that Alah has reserved the highest place in heaven for the guy who dies killing whom ever their Mulah's (their religious leaders) tell them to, including each other. The extremist's have ingrained this deeply into their religious beliefes. Adopting a "live and let live" policy with these people would be like letting Ted Bundy loose as long as he promised not to rape and kill any more. It's a way of life and they don't know any other way.

Would you expect a tiger not to eat you as long as you stayed on your side of the cage? It's in his nature.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Quote

A lot of people don't like us over there and hate to see the death toll climbing every day. But as a guy who has been over there I can say that if we don't take the fight over there they will come over here and try to turn the U.S. into a war zone. They are born a raised on hate.

The lies that got us there doesn't change the fact that we would have had to go there sooner or later.

So other than nuking the whole place out of existance, does anyone have any ideas on how to get out of there? Keep in mind that just pulling out would lead to them just pulling together freely and attacking the U.S.

I'm sure the Nazis had the same attitude about the French, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Czech and Polish terrorists freedom fighters in WWII. However, now that Germany doesn't occupy these nations any more we don't see bunches of Dutchmen terrorizing Germany.

People don't naturally hate others living 5 thousand miles away. We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for generations and that's why they hate us. Even their national boundaries were imposed on them by the west.

Remember how the Colonial Americans resented British interference in their affairs?

If we'd just try minding out own business for a while...

Youre equating the mindset of all of Europe to that of the Arabic countries, WOAH!

Iran has far more in common with europe than the Arabic countries do.

[Andy9o8 2]

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if we don't take the fight over there they will come over here and try to turn the U.S. into a war zone.

Let me explain to you the fallacy of that logic.
You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

The "domino theory" (Vietnam) has just been re-packaged as "the war on terrorism." The Gulf of Tonkin "attack" (which wasn't) became "weapons of mass destruction" (which weren't). "Peace with honor" (Vietnam) has been re-packaged as "don't cut and run until the job's done." "We see the light at the end of the tunnel" (Vietnam) is now "just another 6 months until we see real progress." "Vietnamization" has been repackaged as "Strengthen the Iraqi government to provide for its own security". Sending more troops to strengthen Saigon and the Christmas bombing of Hanoi are now Bush and McCain's idea to send in a "shock force" of scores more thousands of troops to Iraq and concentrate on shoring up the Baghdad region. Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden, vilified as dangerous nuts, are now Cindy Sheehan, vilified as a dangerous nut; while Vietnam Veterans Against the War are now the active-duty soldiers and recent veterans who are just now beginning to openly dissent.

See the pattern here? Same shit, different crapper. We sacrificed 58,000 lives to that lost cause. Younger people who have no memory of Vietnam perhaps can be excused for their naivete on this subject. But I find it incredible, and tragic, that so many people of middle-to-older age, who were teens and young adults during Vietnam, have failed to heed - or even remember - the lesson.

[jcd11235 0]

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Let me explain to you the fallacy of that logic.
You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

The hawks sought support for the war by instilling (unjustified) fear in the population.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,120]

>Your right, people don't naturally hate others, they are taught.

I agree.

> They are brought up believing that Alah has reserved the highest place
> in heaven for the guy who dies killing whom ever their Mulah's (their
>religious leaders) tell them to, including each other.

Right. And in Iraq, this was reserved for each other.

Now we're teaching them something new. We're teaching them that the enemy wears US military uniforms, drives US humvees and flies the US flag. They don't hate us because Allah tells them to; they hate us because we kill their families. You would hate anyone who did that to you.

>Would you expect a tiger not to eat you as long as you stayed on your
>side of the cage? It's in his nature.

Good example. So what's the solution?

a) keep poking the tiger with a sharp stick until he becomes less violent
b) kill the tiger's cubs; maybe that will make him friendlier
c) get out of the cage

We've been trying a) and b) for three years now. It's not working, and it's time to try something else.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Quote

Let me explain to you the fallacy of that logic.
You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

The hawks sought support for the war by instilling (unjustified) fear in the population.

Then or now?
Answer: both, of course.

[billvon 3,120]

>does anyone have any ideas on how to get out of there?

Yep.

Pull all our Iraq troops into Baghdad. Make the entire city a "green zone." Support the Baghdad government with our military, and set them up with excellent defenses/border controls. Let them do whatever they want with the outlying areas (since it is, after all, their country.)

This achieves objectives sought by both US political parties. The democrats can get a significant reduction in military deaths, since it will be a lot easier to pacify a city smaller than Los Angeles than a country the size of Florida. It will likely be possible to reduce the size of the military once the current violence is quelled; you could double the number of troops in Baghdad and still send the majority of US troops home. Heck, you might even be able to send enough troops back to Afghanistan to finish the job there.

The republicans get their desperately-needed "victory in Iraq." The primary objective of PNAC - a stable US-supporting democracy in the Middle East - will happen, albeit on a smaller scale. And since there will be constant border clashes, they will still have an active "war on terror" to point to when they need something threatening, or when they want more money.

Outside Iraq, the various regions would likely devolve to Afghanistan-style warlord control. Some will likely remain friendly to Baghdad. Some regions will support extremists like the Taliban, but that's no different than what we have now in Pakistan. Some will align themselves with the Kurds or the Iranians, which is also OK - it's up to them.

The city of Baghdad itself would likely become a Shi'a stronghold, controlled implicitly or explicitly by the US. That's important to many military types, because the last thing they want is a Shi'a country willing to ally with Iran (another Shi'a country.) Sunnis could stay or move to Baquba, Fallujah, Ramadi, Samarra or another traditionally Sunni city/area.

This voluntary division would also have the great advantage of heading off the threatening civil war by allowing the country to divide without as much bloodshed.

Finally, while violence will likely continue outside Baghdad, I strongly suspect it will decrease once the 'occupiers' have left. More importantly, it will not be US troops doing the killing; that will allow the emnity we've fostered in those areas to slowly die. No doubt it will be replaced by a new hatred, but at least we won't be directly fostering the development of the next anti-US hate group.

[jgoose71 0]

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You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

It's a nice thought but we are already at war on our own shores. Or have you forgot about the previous attempts on the World Trade Center before 9/11? How quickly we forget such incedents as the marine barracks bombing in Beiruit and Bahrain, the USS Cole bombing, the attacks on our embasies. I'm not even gong to try to attempt to list all the plane hijackings and kidnapping of Americans abroad. We were targets before Iraq.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

Quote

>Would you expect a tiger not to eat you as long as you stayed on your
>side of the cage? It's in his nature.

Good example. So what's the solution?

a) keep poking the tiger with a sharp stick until he becomes less violent
b) kill the tiger's cubs; maybe that will make him friendlier
c) get out of the cage

We've been trying a) and b) for three years now. It's not working, and it's time to try something else.

With globalization being what it is, the world is now our cage. Give me a diffrent planet to go to and then I will now be able to "get out of the cage."

I here Siberia is beautiful this time of the year...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

It's a nice thought but we are already at war on our own shores. Or have you forgot about the previous attempts on the World Trade Center before 9/11? How quickly we forget such incedents as the marine barracks bombing in Beiruit and Bahrain, the USS Cole bombing, the attacks on our embasies. I'm not even gong to try to attempt to list all the plane hijackings and kidnapping of Americans abroad. We were targets before Iraq.

So was Tim McVeigh's attack on the federal building in OKC an act of civil war?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Quote

You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

It's a nice thought but we are already at war on our own shores. Or have you forgot about the previous attempts on the World Trade Center before 9/11? How quickly we forget such incedents as the marine barracks bombing in Beiruit and Bahrain, the USS Cole bombing, the attacks on our embasies. I'm not even gong to try to attempt to list all the plane hijackings and kidnapping of Americans abroad. We were targets before Iraq.

This isn't about Afghanistan; it's about Iraq.

See above.

[billvon 3,120]

>With globalization being what it is, the world is now our cage.

Best we stop poking the tiger with a sharp stick and killing its cubs then!

[kallend 2,151]

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You may not be old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but I am. Google "domino theory" as the rationale for the US's involvement in the Vietnam war. The idea was, fight the godless Commies in SE Asia or one nation after another will fall, until before you know it we'll be fighting them at our own shores. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

It's a nice thought but we are already at war on our own shores. Or have you forgot about the previous attempts on the World Trade Center before 9/11? How quickly we forget such incedents as the marine barracks bombing in Beiruit and Bahrain, the USS Cole bombing, the attacks on our embasies. I'm not even gong to try to attempt to list all the plane hijackings and kidnapping of Americans abroad. We were targets before Iraq.

First, and to steal Bill's metaphor, we have been poking them with a sharp stick for most of the 20th Century. Of course they don't want us there.

Second, how many of the incidents you cited were conducted by Iraqis?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>Your right, people don't naturally hate others, they are taught.

I agree.

> They are brought up believing that Alah has reserved the highest place
> in heaven for the guy who dies killing whom ever their Mulah's (their
>religious leaders) tell them to, including each other.

Right. And in Iraq, this was reserved for each other.

Now we're teaching them something new. We're teaching them that the enemy wears US military uniforms, drives US humvees and flies the US flag. They don't hate us because Allah tells them to; they hate us because we kill their families. You would hate anyone who did that to you.

>Would you expect a tiger not to eat you as long as you stayed on your
>side of the cage? It's in his nature.

Good example. So what's the solution?

a) keep poking the tiger with a sharp stick until he becomes less violent
b) kill the tiger's cubs; maybe that will make him friendlier
c) get out of the cage

We've been trying a) and b) for three years now. It's not working, and it's time to try something else.

what cage?, is that some euphamism? and if so please explain.

[billvon 3,120]

>what cage?, is that some euphamism? and if so please explain.

It was Goose's metaphor for the US vs Iraq.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Ok, I must have missed that.

[kallend 2,151]

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Ok, I must have missed that.

That's OK, we still like you

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.