the old plan isn't working

[happythoughts 0]

I think that the old economic model isn't working.
In fact, I think that people are getting ripped off.

I just read an article in US News. Lots of statistics about the way it is supposed to work and why it isn't.

1- More money should be invested into colleges for R&D.

40% of the engineering and technical graduates are from other countries. Are our tax dollars supposed to fund the growth of foreign industries?

There is an old BS line that says that outsourcing is done to hire the graduates from foreign colleges.
Ummm... but they graduated from a US school.

2- There isn't enough qualified applicants.

In the last 3 years, wages have declined for college grads by 8%.

[kallend 2,150]

on the topic of economic assumptions that don't work out:

I was just listening to a piece on the radio about Florida raising its minimum wage a year or so back. Apparently (and you would know this since you are there) there was a multi-$million ad campaign against the proposal by the FL Chamber of Commerce, claiming that the sky would fall (or at least, hundreds of thousands would be thrown out of work) if the minimum wage went up.

As it happens, employment went up and employers are now finding it so hard to find people that even menial jobs are paid above minimum rates. A couple of small businessmen were interviewed, and both said that they never had any intention of firing anyone if the minimum wage went up, they were just annoyed because they thought they would lose profits, and as it happens, they didn't...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[happythoughts 0]

Yeah, everybody knew that was a scam. They need too many people to handle the tourism industry. They already operate with the minimum, they can't cut people.

Of course, Disney probably added $3 to the ticket price and blamed that. Disney couldn't get more money from tourists if they were in an alley with a knife.

They mentioned that tax cuts for corporations don't help because the money just funds investment overseas. Money moves too fluidly.

Tax cuts for people helped partially because it increased the standard of living. People got stuff that they wanted. However, a lot of the goods purchased were from overseas, so it did not increase employment in the US.

[NCclimber 0]

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A couple of small businessmen were interviewed, and both said that they never had any intention of firing anyone if the minimum wage went up, they were just annoyed because they thought they would lose profits, and as it happens, they didn't...

Considering you heard this on the radio, asking you to provide a link or a transcript would be out of the question, eh?

How convenient.

Was it on NPR?

[kallend 2,150]

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A couple of small businessmen were interviewed, and both said that they never had any intention of firing anyone if the minimum wage went up, they were just annoyed because they thought they would lose profits, and as it happens, they didn't...

Considering you heard this on the radio, asking you to provide a link or a transcript would be out of the question, eh?

How convenient.

Was it on NPR?

The radio is very convenient when I'm commuting.

FYI, NPR has a governing board dominated by Republicans, with a Republican chairman, so what is your point?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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A couple of small businessmen were interviewed, and both said that they never had any intention of firing anyone if the minimum wage went up, they were just annoyed because they thought they would lose profits, and as it happens, they didn't...

Considering you heard this on the radio, asking you to provide a link or a transcript would be out of the question, eh?

How convenient.

Was it on NPR?

The radio is very convenient when I'm commuting.

How predictable that you miss the point.

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FYI, NPR has a governing board dominated by Republicans, with a Republican chairman, so what is your point?

You mean these people? http://www.npr.org/about/people/board.html
Tim Eby is a Republican? I didn't know that.

[mnealtx 0]

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The radio is very convenient when I'm commuting.

FYI, NPR has a governing board dominated by Republicans, with a Republican chairman, so what is your point?

Rupert Murdoch (you know, FOX?) contributed to Hillary Clinton... so what's YOUR point?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,150]

The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which sets policy for NPR etc, has a board appointed by the President of the USA and who serve 6 year terms. Every current member of the CPB board, including its chairman, was appointed by G. W. Bush and ratified by a Republican controlled Senate

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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The radio is very convenient when I'm commuting.

FYI, NPR has a governing board dominated by Republicans, with a Republican chairman, so what is your point?

Rupert Murdoch (you know, FOX?) contributed to Hillary Clinton... so what's YOUR point?

Despite the handwringing and shrill rhetoric from the right, unemployment did NOT rise in FL after the minimum wage was raised - that is a FACT, not a matter of opinion. I fail to see that it matters whether its reported on FOX or NPR.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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The radio is very convenient when I'm commuting.

FYI, NPR has a governing board dominated by Republicans, with a Republican chairman, so what is your point?

Rupert Murdoch (you know, FOX?) contributed to Hillary Clinton... so what's YOUR point?

Despite the handwringing and shrill rhetoric from the right, unemployment did NOT rise in FL after the minimum wage was raised - that is a FACT, not a matter of opinion. I fail to see that it matters whether its reported on FOX or NPR.

I'd like to see what the difference in costs for good/services did...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

South Florida Business Journal (aricle):

No negative effects from minimum wage ordinance

http://southflorida.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2006/05/01/daily29.html

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FIU: No negative effects from minimum wage ordinance

South Florida Business Journal - May 3, 2006
Predictions a higher minimum wage would raise unemployment and accelerate inflation in Florida have failed to materialize a year after the new minimum wage went into effect, a study has reported.

The study, carried out by University of Chicago and Florida International University researchers, looked at figures from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Florida Agency for Workforce Innovation, among others.

The researchers concentrated on predictions the $6.15 minimum - $1 above the federal minimum wage - would hurt the tourism industry and raise the state's unemployment rate.

"The numbers speak for themselves," said Bruce Nissen, one of the study's investigators and the director of FIU's Research Institute on Social and Economic Policy. "Most figures indicate the state's economy is doing great and many of the industries that rely on minimum wage labor are doing great, as well."

Nissen points to Florida's unemployment rate as an example. FIU said the indicator is impacted directly by changes in wages, yet is one of the lowest in the nation.

Florida has a 3.2 percent unemployment rate versus 5 percent in California and 4.7 percent in New York.

Even service industries that depend on unskilled labor, such as tourism, have been growing, Nissen said.

In the industries of retail trade, leisure and hospitality, and accommodation and food services, for example, the state said 62,100 jobs were added between April 2005 and February 2006.

The industries represent about one-third of Florida's non-agricultural jobs, FIU said.

Inflation has not changed significantly in comparison with states where the minimum wage did not change, Nissen said.

However, he said Florida still trails the country in average wages in most categories.

He also said other studies have shown raising wages under many circumstances is good for an economy because it helps push up worker productivity.

[NCclimber 0]

It looks like there's a booming economy in Florida. Boom periods tend to cause labor shortages, which in turn make minimum wages issues irrelevant.

It's when the cycle heads south and unemployment rises that the impact of mandatory minimum wages are felt.

Also, the businesses that do hire at minimum wage are a relative small portion employers, so the overall impact to an area is relatively minor. That doesn't change the fact that those minimum wage employers do get hit.

[Andy9o8 2]

You challenge Kallend's "sourcing" for the Florida story; I gave it to you. Now you do a little quick-step.

Nice spin. Entirely speculative and unpersuasive, but it is a catchy sound byte.

[NCclimber 0]

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You challenge Kallend's "sourcing" for the Florida story; I gave it to you. Now you do a little quick-step.

Nice spin. Entirely speculative and unpersuasive, but it is a catchy sound byte.

You seem to have taken offense at my last post. Which parts where "entirely speculative and unpersuasive?

It wasn't meant to "prove anyone wrong". I was offering up my .02, which is pretty much in line mainstream thinking.

As far as whether or not Florida's MW increase was harmful, the current picture indicates it's had limited adverse effects.

[happythoughts 0]

Since I read the article in a magazine, there is no link.

However, the focus of the article was how Keynesian economics works within the framework of a govt.
The moves that a govt make will affect the economy.

Globalization means that the economic effects of tax cuts and, things like that, are offset by world monetary shifts.

This should change politics too. The Fed govt power to punish a state economically erodes.

The gist of the article was that regardless of which party wins in 2008, they are going to have less control over the economy. My guess is that it will devolve into pork-barrel politics.

[kallend 2,150]

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As far as whether or not Florida's MW increase was harmful, the current picture indicates it's had limited adverse effects in complete contradiction to the doomsday predictions of the right wingers.

fixed it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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As far as whether or not Florida's MW increase was harmful, the current picture indicates it's had limited adverse effects in complete contradiction to the doomsday predictions of the right wingers.

fixed it.

We all have our own version of reality. It's kind of creepy how some people's default setting is to be constantly victimized by imaginary boogeymen.

[kallend 2,150]

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As far as whether or not Florida's MW increase was harmful, the current picture indicates it's had limited adverse effects in complete contradiction to the doomsday predictions of the right wingers.

fixed it.

We all have our own version of reality. It's kind of creepy how some people's default setting is to be constantly victimized by imaginary boogeymen.

The multi million dollar scaremongering TV and radio ad campaign was not imaginary. Just full of bogus predictions of economic gloom.

Turned out that the minimum wage increase was the bogeyman, and the FL Chamber of Commerce got the creeps from it.

People's Weekly World Newspaper, 11/04/04 12:51


TAMPA, Fla. — One of the bright spots in Florida was the passage of the amendment for an increase in the state minimum wage, starting at $6.15 an hour and beginning six months after enactment. The wage is to be annually indexed to inflation thereafter. Amendment 5, one of eight ballot initiatives here, won with 71 percent of the vote, 4,834,437 votes to 1,990,465. It appears that the amendment got more votes than Bush. It passed despite a massive ad campaign on radio and television to defeat it. The only ballot initiative that got a higher vote was a patient’s right to know provision about medical mistakes, which won with 81 percent of the vote.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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It passed despite a massive ad campaign on radio and television to defeat it. The only ballot initiative that got a higher vote ....

record numbers of minimum wage workers showed up at the polls.......

I suspect the highest vote turnout ever would be an initiative to give each voter $5000

Luckily, People's Weekly was on hand to show the obvious. What would we do without the news media?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,150]

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It passed despite a massive ad campaign on radio and television to defeat it. The only ballot initiative that got a higher vote ....

record numbers of minimum wage workers showed up at the polls.......

I suspect the highest vote turnout ever would be an initiative to give each voter $5000

Luckily, People's Weekly was on hand to show the obvious. What would we do without the news media?

Guess what fraction of eligible voters in FL earn minimum wage. Go on, guess.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

3.14159265%

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,150]

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3.14159265%

Too high.

It's under 2%.

Consequently your (implied) assertion that they changed the outcome is absurd.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

>3.14159265%

Your so-called "reply" is completely circular.

[rehmwa 2]

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3.14159265%

Too high.

It's under 2%.

Consequently your (implied) assertion that they changed the outcome is absurd.

go ahead - get a ballot initiative to promise every single person a check for $5000

go on, I dare you.

bet I vote for it

"record numbers of minimum wage workers showed up at the polls" My only assumption is that more of that particular 2% voted than they normally have. Prove to me they didn't show in record numbers as I stated directly, though mockingly. (you can even leave out those that vote that really aren't supposed to).

As for your assumption otherwise, your inference is yours alone.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

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As far as whether or not Florida's MW increase was harmful, the current picture indicates it's had limited adverse effects in complete contradiction to the doomsday predictions of the right wingers.

fixed it.

We all have our own version of reality. It's kind of creepy how some people's default setting is to be constantly victimized by imaginary boogeymen.

The multi million dollar scaremongering TV and radio ad campaign was not imaginary. Just full of bogus predictions of economic gloom.

Turned out that the minimum wage increase was the bogeyman, and the FL Chamber of Commerce got the creeps from it.

People's Weekly World Newspaper, 11/04/04 12:51


TAMPA, Fla. — One of the bright spots in Florida was the passage of the amendment for an increase in the state minimum wage, starting at $6.15 an hour and beginning six months after enactment. The wage is to be annually indexed to inflation thereafter. Amendment 5, one of eight ballot initiatives here, won with 71 percent of the vote, 4,834,437 votes to 1,990,465. It appears that the amendment got more votes than Bush. It passed despite a massive ad campaign on radio and television to defeat it. The only ballot initiative that got a higher vote was a patient’s right to know provision about medical mistakes, which won with 81 percent of the vote.

Excerpts from The Daily Comrade.

Good stuff.

And on the flips side:

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ACORN budgeted over $2 million for the campaign. In addition to a team of strategists, pollsters, fundraisers and a full-time coalition coordinator, the group deployed a field staff of 40 organizers, up to 60 canvassers, and over 2,000 volunteers. The field staff gathered signatures, registered 122,000 voters and implemented a get-out-the-vote plan that resulted in a net increase in turnout of 68,000 new voters in November.