Our Man in Chile Dies

[kallend 2,182]

www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061211.wxpinochet11/BNStory/International/home

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

Spot the Good dictator (Hurrrah) .vs. the Bad (boooo... Hissss) dictator.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[niu 0]

He is a good dictator now,allright.

[NCclimber 0]

I'd be interested in hearing what people think the US did, regarding his 1973 coup.

[PhreeZone 20]

Fox news did a nice piece last night on the aid that we were giving to get him into office. Lots of the documents recently became declassified and showed that the CIA contacted lots of military generals and told them if they staged a coup they would get lots ofaid from the US again. We withdrew aid earlier since the government was leaning towards communism. It showed all the meetings the ambassitor had with the generals and promises of payouts and restoration of aid once the coup was over if it was successful. It also showed a direct Kissenger quote as Sec of State that no matter how bad Pinochet was, he was a better choice then the previous administation. He now feels it was a dark time for US foriegn policy knowing what everyone knows now about Pinochet.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SpeedRacer 1]

Our actions at that time were ANTI-Allende, rather than PRO-Pinochet.

Speed Racer
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[shropshire 0]

Allende was the legally elected head of state, had popular support but didn't like the US... so they threw their toys out of the pram ... Oh when will we ever learn from history.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[FreeflyChile 0]

I don't want to make this too political because I am not too in touch with the situation, living in the US most of my life but my thoughts are that while the media is quick to spell out the charges against Pinochet, they never really mention what life was like in Chile before the coup.

My parents both were around college age when the coup happened and they tell me stories of the fact that in the weeks prior to the coup they'd have to get in lines for things like sugar and bread, that they had a national curfew, and that the soldiers would parade down the streets and people would throw stuff at them calling them cowards for not standing up to Allende.

Now, I don't condone torture or murder but given the stories i have heard from my family it seems like what was going on was a revolution. Usually, blood has to be spilled for change like that.

Of course, by the same token if blood was required back then for the good of the country, I think that if Pinochet's death allows the country to move forward, then thats good too. likewise, if he were alive to face trial and was found guilty -- if that was necessary for the good of the country, then so be it.

In any case, the thing that gets me is that you have people who had to leave the country making the most noise -- people who havent been back to chile in many years. what people seem to overlook is that if the coup hadn't happened, Chile would be where Cuba is now. Instead, right now you have one of the most stable, growing countries in South America.

[kallend 2,182]

No, there's a BIG difference between Allende and Castro; Allende was the legally elected head of state in a democratic election. Allende had given no indication of supporting or creating a totalitarian regime. Unfortunately, Nixon's boys didn't like him, so Chile got Pinochet instead.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FreeflyChile 0]

From a US policy standpoint, I understand the beef with going in to overthrow an elected leader.

From the point of view that I was born in Chile, lived there for 10 years total, and have gone back with quasi-regularity whenever I have been gone, and from the point of view of people who lived through the whole thing first-hand, and knew the reality of what it was like there with Allende and then with Pinochet, I know that what happened was what was best for the country. I know the country is in better shape because it happened, and for that I am glad that the US intervened.

I understand the academic debates about topics such as this one, and it's easy to take an extreme position on something like this (it absolutely right or absolutely wrong). I just think that the reality of what happened is somewhere in between, and its a lot closer to the "it was the right thing to do" than the wrong thing.

Again, from the US perspective, and even for US reasons to go in in the first place -- not something that is seen as positive. Probably not justification to do it again to another country in the future.

But i gotta say that the result was not nearly as horrible as people would have you believe.

[Amazon 7]

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But i gotta say that the result was not nearly as horrible as people would have you believe.

Unless you were one of the thousands that "dissappeared"

[kallend 2,182]

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But i gotta say that the result was not nearly as horrible as people would have you believe.

Ha ha.

Human Rights Watch urges the United States to help promote judicial accountability for the crimes committed during the military rule of Augusto Pinochet. We look to the United States to indicate clearly and publicly to the governments of Spain and the United Kingdom that it supports efforts to achieve justice for crimes against humanity committed under the direction of General Pinochet. As a concrete measure of that support, the U.S. can and must cooperate fully with Spanish authorities investigating the case by providing all evidence in its possession of these crimes.

The systematic human rights violations committed by the Chilean military during the Pinochet dictatorship amount to crimes against humanity. Official Chilean investigations have confirmed that more than 3,100 people were victims of extrajudicial execution or "disappearance." Thousands of others were victims of torture, arbitrary detention, forced internal exile, or other abuses.

International law-as well the prevention of future atrocities-demands the prosecution of those responsible for these abuses. The Chilean military granted itself an amnesty in 1978, however, and the Chilean justice system has investigated and prosecuted only the rarest of cases.

Self-conferred impunity should hold no sway internationally. Future tyrants must understand that punishment awaits those who commit crimes against humanity, internationally if not domestically. The United States should therefore encourage and support efforts to prosecute those responsible for crimes against humanity.

The United States also has a more immediate interest in a full investigation of General Pinochet's crimes. According to Chile's official National Truth and Reconciliation Commission, at least three U.S. citizens were murdered in Chile after the 1973 coup. These include Charles Edmund Horman and Frank Randal Teruggi, who were executed by the military in September 1973. In addition, in September 1976, a terrorist car-bombing killed former Chilean Foreign Minister Orlando Letelier and U.S. citizen Ronni Karpen Moffitt in Washington, DC. A U.S. grand jury indicted four members of Pinochet's security police, the DINA, including the agency's chief of operations Army Brig. Pedro Espinoza and its director Army Gen. Manuel Contreras Seplveda, a man who reported directly to General Pinochet. In 1975, both Contreras and Espinoza went to prison in Chile for the crime.

The undertaking by Spanish judges Baltazar Garzón and Manuel García-Castellón to bring General Pinochet to justice is based on well-established international law and practice giving Spain the right to assert jurisdiction over crimes against Spanish nationals in Chile. In addition, as those who commit crimes against humanity are considered enemies of all mankind, their crimes, even against non-Spaniards, can also be tried by Spanish courts.

Nonetheless, public statements by U.S. officials since Pinochet's detention by law enforcement authorities in the United Kingdom have been disappointingly restrained, referring only to the need to avoid commenting on the judicial process and suggesting that the matter is strictly between Spain, the United Kingdom, and Chile. This is not a question of interference in judicial independence, however. Any Spanish judicial decision to seek extradition would have to be approved by the Spanish government, and the Spanish government should know where the U.S. stands. The lack of public U.S. support for the investigation-particularly given the U.S.'s direct interest in the case-sends the signal that the United States is indifferent to bringing General Pinochet to trial.

The U.S.'s muted position on the need to bring Pinochet to justice contrasts with its active attempts earlier this year to seek to bring Pol Pot to trial in Canada. That effort would have required Canada to use a pure theory of universal jurisdiction-without Canada having any particular nexus to the crimes in question-while the Spanish investigation is currently proceeding on the basis of the murder, torture, and "disappearances" of Spanish citizens, a more traditional jurisdictional theory. The U.S. should be at least as supportive of Spain's assertion of jurisdiction over Pinochet as it was of attempts to try Pol Pot in Canada.

A concrete measure of U.S. support would be to provide all the information the U.S. has collected relating to General Pinochet's role in crimes against humanity, including the extensive evidence it amassed in the investigation of the Letelier-Moffitt murders. We are concerned, however, by reports that the U.S. has been stingy in its cooperation with requests made by Spanish law enforcement authorities acting under the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty between the U.S. and Spain. A public statement by the U.S. on the importance of accountability would also serve to dispel the impression that the U.S. does not favor the investigation going forward.

We know that, just as the Chilean judiciary has been unable to prosecute General Pinochet, the government of Chile now opposes the Spanish extradition request. But while domestic legal and political considerations in Chile may give the country's leaders grounds to explain their actions, international law recognizes no such excuses. The same is true of the Chilean government's claim of diplomatic immunity, since Pinochet was not on diplomatic mission or in an official delegation temporarily conferring diplomatic status. In any event, diplomatic immunity should not be a shield for those accused of committing crimes against humanity. Similarly, we believe that short-term concerns that the prosecution of crimes against humanity will jeopardize transitions by causing tyrants to cling to power are outweighed by the international community's long-term interest in making it clear to future tyrants that they face punishment if they embark on crimes against humanity.

Mr. President, Human Rights Watch, together with many governments and victims of abuse, viewed the United States' positions during this summer's diplomatic conference in Rome to establish an International Criminal Court as a retreat from traditional U.S. support for the prosecution of crimes against humanity. U.S. leaders responded that it was not. Particularly since this case involves a responsible democracy pursuing crimes committed against its own citizens, the Pinochet investigation is an opportunity to resurrect the United States' image as a proponent of accountability for the worst international crimes.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FreeflyChile 0]

yeah, re-reading that i realized i worded it wrong -- i didn't mean to say that what happened to those that dissapeared or were tortured wasn't horrible. i was more referring to the fact that it seems to me that since Pinochet died the stories highlight the dissapearances and what was accused of and how people wanted him to go on trial.

I am ok with the stories mentioning that, it is important information related to the man. What i meant to say is that I haven't seen much in the way of stories really exploring how life was prior to the coup, and how the country is doing now, and whether the coup and subsquent military regime may have had some positive effects.

[jcd11235 0]

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what people seem to overlook is that if the coup hadn't happened, Chile would be where Cuba is now.

I don't think the tectonic plates care much about politics.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[shropshire 0]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

WEll since most of the "dissappeared" were labled as Communists... its no big deal.. getting rid of those reds probably did a lot for South America. The US at the time looked the other way internationally.... and yet gave great amounts of money to some really dispicable people as long as they said they were using it to kill the commies.

[marcandalysse 0]

I had many friends living in Chile during the Allende years. One friend has a photo he took of Allende at his last press conference the day before he was murdered. When the coup happened, my friend was robbed of his passport/id by chileano soldiers and saved by a family who found him cowering behind some boxes in the shadows, and hid him in their home until it was safe to go to the US embassy. His description of that time was very similar to that shown in the great movie"MISSING" with Sissy Spacek and Jack Lemmon.

I highly recommend that movie. Lemmon plays a father who comes to Chile looking for his missing activist son, not believing that the US could be complicit in all that mess, and discovering how wrong he could be.

At the time of the coup, Chile was filled with people who had fled those other south american countries where the CIA/USGovt had already managed to evoke dictatorships...notably Argentina, Uruguay, and Brasil. These people, often highly educated and dedicated to social change, were able to live freely in Chile where in their own countries they would have been tortured, imprisioned (as many were), killed. You could call them 'leftists' or whatever label, but I knew them as loving concerned people.

A couple of those brazilian friends told me they were tortured by the same guys (both brazilian AND US) that tortured them during the early stages of the Brasilian coup in 1964-68!

They told stories of the infamous soccer stadium filled with arrested people who had to watch people being tortured and shot on the field in front of them. The famous singer Victor Jara had his hand chopped off and was forced to play guitar. He banged on the guitar with his stub and sang one last protest song before they shot him.

Yeah today Chile is a beacon of stability in Latin America.....but it was built on some awful foundations. Freeflychile, you haven't heard the whole story from your family.

Thanks Kallend for copying that extended article.

[Andy9o8 3]

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Our Man in Chile Dies

My only regret is that the murdering fucker lived such a long life as a free man, and died quietly in a warm, soft bed. Life's not fair.

[orribolollie 0]

WEll since most of the "dissappeared" were labled as Communists... its no big deal.. getting rid of those reds probably did a lot for South America

Reply:
Are you serious with this shit?

[Amazon 7]

hell yeah..uh... well maybbe.... uh well not really.. DUDE.. there isnt a sarchasm icon