Sorting out Iraq - what should be done?

[vortexring 0]

I've been wondering what on earth can be done to sort out the utter mess Iraq has become. I'm of the opinion 'we' should stay the course, despite the deaths and financial strains.

Despite the issues surrounding the conflict, morally doing the very best to stabilise and develop the country is now our responsibility.

I'd beould be intrested to read of others general opinion, and perhaps their reasoning as well.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

If I were POTUS, I'd call for an election in Iraq on the issue - shoudl American forces withdraw? If they vote yes, I'd ask question 2 - Immediately or within the next year?

Then I'd follow the democratic ideals and get the hell out when they vote to send the Yankees home!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

Fair enough, but I think the potential of further de-stabilisation of the country (and hence the region) through withdrawal could be disastrous.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Fair enough, but I think the potential of further de-stabilisation of the country (and hence the region) through withdrawal could be disastrous.

Understood. But, that'd be Bush's fault.

What's the worst that could happen? They go to war with each other again? They've been doign that for centuries.
They get mad at the US? They already are and have been.
They go after Israel? Been there, done that.
Region destabilized? It's been unstable for millenia now.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

I'm thinking along the lines of further de-stabilisation.

I'm also thinking of those other axis of evil 'baddies' and their involvement too.

But perhaps more importantly, it's a stinking mess. It needs cleaned up. Withdrawal can't do this.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

I dont' know how to clean it up. Isnt' it what we've been trying to do for a couple of years now?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

Me neither, but it seems the Governments are putting some serious thought towards this. I also think they might be wanting to pull out sooner rather than later, and peoples opinion will naturally influence this decision.
I'm also thinking we need far more countries willing to give a helping hand. I know the UK/US won't solve the issues on their own.
Can't see this happening any time soon though.

And I also suspect Afghanistan may well go along similiar lines to Iraq.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Staying the course is probably the best bet if that includes a unrestrained counterinsurgency campaign.

We are doing the right things by rebuilding them and trying to let everyone participate in their new government, but we need to stop those bent on destroying any chance of them governing themselves in a peaceful manner.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

The best thing to do is to do exactly what we did in the 70's and that is to install a absolute ruthless dictator to take control and start chopping heads! Then we can pull out. This is such a no brain'r............Not everyone deserves Democracy. Nor is Democracy right for every society.........most people do not know that of course!

Where are all the DZ.Com war mongers of yesterday? Why are they not here posting solutions?

And YES, I voted to put Saddam back in the hotseat!!!!! Maybe then he will tell GWB where the WMD are!!!!!!!

Suckers!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[billvon 3,090]

> It needs cleaned up. . .

> . . . install a absolute ruthless dictator to take control . . . .

> . . . Staying the course . . .

From out of the blue
with wings on his heels
A messenger comes, bearing regrets
for the time that he steals

And steal it he will, my children's and mine
Against our desires, against all our needs
our blood spilled like wine

Over and over we call
But no one hears
and further and further and further we fall
Though we brave it we soon must awake
For this is clear - this no dream at all
our lives are at stake

I cannot believe, nor even pretend
That the thunder we hear will just disappear
And this nightmare will end

So hold back the fire, because this much is true:
When all's said and done, the ending will come
from out of the blue

(david gilmour)

[Amazon 7]

We should evacuate.. and nuke it from space..... seemed to sorta work in Aliens

[Skyrad 0]

"Its bad. Its bad in Iraq."

President George W Bush 07/12/2006

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[vortexring 0]

I read this article, initially feeling it might actually make some sense, but it doesn't go into some of the other main problems; namely Iranian and Syrian interference. Anyway, felt it might be of interest:

A quick look at Iraq’s history reveals that government intervention, beginning with the British government’s meddling after World War I, is primarily responsible for the country’s current problems. The British created the artificial state of Iraq from the rubble of the Ottoman Empire. Throughout its history, Iraq has been held together only by brute force of authoritarian power. Although the various ethnic and religious groups in Iraq traditionally have lived in peace, during Saddam’s rule, he deliberately stoked ethnic and religious cleavages in a “divide and conquer” strategy. After the naïve U.S. invasion removed the only brake on Iraqi centrifugal forces, Saddam’s earlier fueling of sectarian animosities has come home to roost in the current civil war between the Sunni and Shi’a. Even though the interventions of governments have caused most of Iraq’s current difficulties, the Bush administration and other conservatives, such as George Will, apparently believe that somehow stronger government is also the answer. Quite the contrary.

Will argues that in the absence of a strong central government “sectarian clustering” will occur. Sectarian clustering is not necessarily a bad thing unless compelled by force of arms. People should be allowed to live freely where they want. The problem in Iraq was that the Sunni insurgents deliberately struck Shi’ite targets to provoke Shi’ite militias into the civil war that has already begun. And the Sunnis began their insurgency for three reasons. The first was to oust the U.S. government’s occupation of their homeland and later the Shi’ite/Kurdish interim government that it was propping up. The second was to avoid paybacks for the excesses of the Saddam era by that and future Iraqi Shi’ite/Kurdish central governments. The third was to prevent the Shi’ite/Kurdish government from controlling all of Iraq’s oil wealth—which lies mainly in the northern Kurdish and southern Shi’ite regions of the country—and perhaps leaving the Sunnis without any if those regions decided to become autonomous or secede from Iraq, as seems increasingly likely.

In fact, perhaps the solution to Iraq lies in such sectarian clustering. Instead of fighting the powerful centrifugal forces in Iraq, perhaps the United States and the Iraqis should embrace them. A grand conclave of all Iraqi groups should be held to negotiate the decentralization of Iraq. Such an arrangement would probably entail a very loose confederation with a weak central government or an outright partition (with each group not necessarily inhabiting contiguous areas) with no Iraqi central government. Minimizing or eliminating the central government would eliminate the fear by Iraqi groups that the central government would be taken over by one group and used to oppress all others. To get the Sunnis to agree to such decentralization and to quell their fears that they would be left with only a rump state devoid of oil revenues, the Shi’a and Kurds would need to reach an oil revenue sharing agreement with them or actually give them territory containing oil wells. To encourage the Shi’a and the Kurds to make such concessions, the United States should announce a rapid withdrawal of the U.S. forces that are now artificially propping up the Iraqi central government.

The reality is that Iraq is already effectively decentralized. Numerous militias control large areas and cannot be disarmed. Also, the Bush administration makes the questionable assumption that the Iraqi security forces will remain national and not break up to match the sectarian divides in Iraqi society. Yet the administration and many other conservatives, who would never embrace big government solutions at home, are proponents of strengthening the Iraq government. But to really be effective in holding the fractious Iraqi society together, the central government would probably have to resume Saddam-like dictatorial powers—something that no one wants.

The United States should attempt to spur peaceful negotiations to codify the de facto decentralization on the ground rather than continuing its bid to impose an unworkable U.S.-style federation on Iraq. Current U.S. policy will continue to exacerbate, rather than dampen, the ongoing civil war. (ends)

Withdrawal, and leaving the factions to themselves (and Iran, and Syria, etc) is beyond stupid. So I'm suspecting this to happen in the not so distant future.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[billvon 3,090]

That's similar to a suggestion I made a while back. Pull everyone out of everywhere but Baghdad. Send the pulled-out troops to Baghdad and Afghanistan. We pacify Baghdad, and thus we get our stronghold in the Middle East (and the right wingers can claim "we won! we won!" which is very important to them.) Kurdistan is happy as a clam. Iran and Syria move in and try to influence the Sunni/Shi'a areas to become part of their respective countries - we wish em good luck. Ahmadinejad inherits a civil war to distract him from his nuclear programs.

[wmw999 2,565]

Billvon for president -- how hard could it be

(for those not from Texas, that was one of Kinky Friedman's campaign catch phrases).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[vortexring 0]

Here's a chap from Florida's opinion I picked from the BBC website:


The US needs to focus less on whether the Iraqi military will be ready to police the country. It never will be, since insurgents are usually not defeated by an organised army - a lesson learned by the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Instead, the focus should be on social advances, such as getting power plants, hospitals and schools back up and running, reducing unemployment, and increasing oil exports.

Tangible social gains will provide the US with a reason to engage other parties and hopefully begin to disentangle itself from the mess it finds itself in.(ends)

It certainly makes sense. He also suggested the inclusion of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia in this process. Lets face it, at the moment, they're not exactly uninvolved are they?
But whilst America has to untangle itself from this almighty balls up, how it does so will be critically important to all our future international stability.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[billvon 3,090]

>Instead, the focus should be on social advances, such as getting
> power plants, hospitals and schools back up and running, reducing
> unemployment, and increasing oil exports.

That's a great plan, except we've done that once already. We sunk billions into hospitals, power plants, pipelines etc. Funding cuts, bribery and overbilling scuttled some of those projects, and much of the rest have been blown up by insurgents.

[vortexring 0]

Never give up on your focus mate.
You have to make it work!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Billvon for president -- how hard could it be .

and his plan should take about 6 months,,,,,

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[slug 1]

Quote

Quote

Billvon for president -- how hard could it be .

and his plan should take about 6 months,,,,,

Hi rehmwa


Why the delay? we can be out of there in 3 month's.

We've been training their military police and gov't for three years, IMO their as good as its going to get.

We helped free the iraqi's from the butcher of bagdhad, they've had free and open elections, trained the iraq's army to protect their own country to our standards. We leave them lots of ammo for protection, declare mission accomplished and have a victory parade when our troops come home.

Dawrwin theory will take effect after the dust settles Iraq will be reconfigured the way it was befor the colonists screwed it up. Kurds north, shia's south sunni's in the center. by whatever means the iraqi's decide to use.

If Iraq still needs help (military advisors) they can do what we did. Hire contractor's.

On the way out the door we partner with our friends in isreal and tell them their massive use of cluster bombs just befor the peace fire in lebanon was unacceptable and they need to learn to play nice with their neighbors rather than act like a bully because we've been giving them all the good toys.

ITSOC Isreal needs to return to lebanon and clean up all the UXO cluster bombs they left lying all over the place to prevent further loss of life of innocent men women,& children etc that might continue for many yr's to come.

If the Arabs, persians isreal's, see we're treating them all equally, maybe they'll get the message they need learn to solve their own problems thru peaceful negoitians because we're out of there.

The light at the end of the tunnel is getting bigger
BTW good job Rummy thanks for nothing. you've earned your place in the history books.

Ho Ho Ho


R.I.P.