since when is the Jewish Religon a "race"?

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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as in, since when is the Jewish Religon a "race"? ...

Since before Christ was born being Jewish has meant matrilineal descent from the twelve tribes of Israel.

Understand that's the argument towards being Jewish also being a race...

... but does that then mean if one converts from being Lutheran to being Jewish, they've changed their race?

... so one can become part of the Jewish "race" by converting to the Jewish belief? ... but, say, one couldn't convert from being of the Caucasian race to the Negro race, that would be un-doable?

... so how is it that a religon no matter how strongly based in tracing in one's lineage to the tribes of Isreal a race?

Actually, we're all part of the HUMAN RACE, period.

[AggieDave 6]

There's Judism the religion and Jewish the race. Being of Jewish decent doesn't mean that you claim Judism as your religion.

Just as the Egyptians had enslaved the Jewish people long ago, it was a race of people then and it continues to be a race of people today.

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Actually, we're all part of the HUMAN RACE, period.

That's a nice utopian view of the world and I wish it was truely held as a belief by all; however, its not how a large majority of the people on this earth feel.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,108]

>but does that then mean if one converts from being Lutheran to
>being Jewish, they've changed their race?

Judaism is a religion. The jewish race was at one point a separate race, although nowadays (as with many races) that's getting diluted. You can also be a citizen/inhabitant of the nation of Israel, which many people also refer to as "jews."

> but, say, one couldn't convert from being of the Caucasian race
>to the Negro race, that would be un-doable?

Well, Michael Jackson managed to convert . . .

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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...The jewish race was at one point a separate race...

The key words there being "at one point"...

I guess its neither here nor there to me or anyone of the Judaism religon if I do or do not think that Jewish = race... OBTW, I don't... I suppose God and I will get a chance to chat on that some day.

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Well, Michael Jackson managed to convert . . .

Easy there Bill... one man's "ah, its just a joke"... is another man's "slur"...

[shermanator 4]

Well, I consider myself jewish *the race* even though they wont.... Mom's dad was Jewish, but promised to raise his kids catholic when married.. funny what love will do to you. and my Dad's mom Jew. .. but, technically, I'm not jew, becasue my mom is not.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[FallRate 0]

The notion of Race is a categorical error. One which we should abandon.

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Actually, we're all part of the HUMAN RACE, period.

Agreed.

FallRate

[rehmwa 2]

I like to think of skydivers as a race.

Then, if someone badmouths skydiving, we can call them 'racist' and sue their asses.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rs2kmk5 0]

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I like to think of skydivers as a race.

Then, if someone badmouths skydiving, we can call them 'racist' and sue their asses.

I'll second that

Out of 10,000 feet of fall, always remember that the last half inch hurts the most — Captain Charles W. Purcell, 1932

[Squeak 17]

"RACE" is a social construct it has no biological meaning. You can pretty much apply it at will to any given set of people

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[falxori 0]

I don't get the whole "race" idea.
the "racial" differences most people talk about (skin color, etc) are nothing more than evolutionary differences based on environmental conditions.

judism is not a "race", to some its a religion, to many other (including me) its a culture and heritage.

there are "jews" of all shapes and sizes, the only thing that links them together is a common heritage and history. that doesn't make them a "race", it makes them a "nation".

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

So then Hitler wasn't a racist.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

depends by which "race" definition you go.

Hitler developed a race theory where he defined the different races as he wanted and he gave a "priority" to each "race". then he went out to exterminate the "inferior" races. so by his own "race" definitions, he was a racist.

I am white, blonde with blue eyes. the only thing that makes me jewish or different from any other sweedish guy is my heritage and culture that links me to the jewish nation.

its all about the definition of who you are.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[airtwardo 7]

In 1983, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws.

Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race.

The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, are Jews a race ?

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits.

You can't change your race; it's in your DNA.

I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew.

Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting.

Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews
(Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).


So for the sake of general discussion...

(I know which thread this question was basically taken from)

In the good ole U-S of A... 'Legally' it's BOTH a race AND a religion.

The ACLU & the JDL really get a kick when someone blatantly discriminates against a Jewish person because they (may in some cases) hold a 'double whammy' card as far a discrimination suit is concerned.



And we're not the only ones, those 'down under' seem to take the same 'view'!

JONES v SCULLY (2003 FCA 1080 decision) that named Jews, Muslims and Sikhs as a race in Australia.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Skyrad 0]

Joking aside. I agree with you but when does a race cease to be defined as a race? I don't think that Jews will ever stop being defined as a race even though it is patently incorrect. You're Jewish and have described yourself as blond haired and blue eyed and I've met Ethopian jews who were black and I doubt they were any less Jewish and I doubt that you share the same race. Weird.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Richards 0]

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I like to think of skydivers as a race.

Then, if someone badmouths skydiving, we can call them 'racist' and sue their asses.

Excellent. Now I am a special interest group member and are therefore liscensed to carry a chip on my shoulder.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[falxori 0]

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You're Jewish and have described yourself as blond haired and blue eyed and I've met Ethopian jews who were black and I doubt they were any less Jewish and I doubt that you share the same race. Weird.

replace "race" with "nation" or "common history" and you'll be on track.

i don't get the whole "race" issue at all and I don't see blacks, asians or any other as being of a different race. they have some evolutionary differences based on the location and size of the local gene pool.

if an Italian immigrant in the US still feels in touch with his Italian heritage (history, language, food, etc) he can still be seen as Italian American. if after 100 years, his family doesn't feel/know anything about Italy and their family history, then he is not so much Italian anymore.

if you must insist on the "race" difference, than that Ethiopian jew is exactly that, a jew who came from Africa while I am a jew who's part of his family came from northern europe.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

I don't insist on a race issue I just was wondering when a race ceased to exist as a race, generally I'd agree with you on this.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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I just was wondering when a race ceased to exist as a race

I don't think it was ever a "race"
it was a nation that was dispersed first by the Babylonians and then by the Romans so it had to live among other nations while keeping its own identity to a certain degree. many were integrated into the "hosting" nations and some kept their heritage.

nothing about race here.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[kbordson 8]

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Joking aside. I agree with you but when does a race cease to be defined as a race?

I personally define "Judasim" as a religion, with one exception: the Ashkenazi RACE. Because it has specific genetic markers that identify it as seperate.

(Now whehter Hiltler was "technically" racist with his quest to destroy the Jewish population.... doesn't matter what you call him, evil is still evil.)

[Squeak 17]

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Joking aside. I agree with you but when does a race cease to be defined as a race?

I personally define "Judasim" as a religion, with one exception: the Ashkenazi RACE. Because it has specific genetic markers that identify it as seperate.

I would expect you as a doctor to have a better understanding of race as being a socially derived term and not a genetic influence

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 3,108]

>I would expect you as a doctor to have a better understanding of race
>as being a socially derived term and not a genetic influence.

"Race" means a a group related by common descent/heredity, and sharing common genetic traits. You can add any social connotations to it you like; doesn't change the underlying reality that there _are_ genetically different races out there. Indeed, doctors must understand this; blacks with heart disease are often treated differently than whites because their genetic makeup is different. (Google BiDil.) White women are at greater risk for osteoporosis, and are treated accordingly. Many asians lack ADHD, and thus cannot drink much alcohol without getting quite sick.

[kbordson 8]

As above.

[AdamGardner 0]

Race or not??

A Mr. Winston Churchill's opinion

"Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable RACE which has appeared in the world."

- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain

[Squeak 17]

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>I would expect you as a doctor to have a better understanding of race
>as being a socially derived term and not a genetic influence.

"Race" means a a group related by common descent/heredity, and sharing common genetic traits. You can add any social connotations to it you like; doesn't change the underlying reality that there _are_ genetically different races out there. Indeed, doctors must understand this; blacks with heart disease are often treated differently than whites because their genetic makeup is different. (Google BiDil.) White women are at greater risk for osteoporosis, and are treated accordingly. Many asians lack ADHD, and thus cannot drink much alcohol without getting quite sick.

OH so Bill V Novak said it so it must be true you make an acertion like that reference it. there are many and varied yext out there that argure Race as a social construct.
From a biologist point of view, taxonomist and systemists also agree that Race is not a genetice process

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Despite modern proof that race is arbitrary biological fiction, racial taxons are still used widely in medical teaching, practice, and research

(The Medicalization of Race: Scientific Legitimization of a Flawed Social Construct
Ritchie Witzig, MD, MPH
Annals of Internal Medicine, 15 October 1996 | Volume 125 Issue 8 | Pages 675-679)

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 3,108]

> you make an acertion like that reference it.

Sure! (although in the future I'd recommend a website called Google so you can do your own research.)

Merriam-Webster:

race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza

. . .

3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary/

BiDil:

Information for Patients about BiDil®
BiDil is approved for use in addition to routine heart medicines to treat heart failure in black patients, to extend life, improve heart failure symptoms, and help patients stay out of the hospital longer. There is little experience in patients with heart failure who experience significant symptoms while at rest. Most patients in the clinical study of BiDil received routine heart failure medicines.

http://www.bidil.com/

Alcohol processing in asians:

One group of mutations is in an enzyme called aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH) and the other group is in the ADH enzyme. These mutations - predominantly observed among Asians - tend to impart protection from alcohol-use disorders because they cause a larger, more intense LR to alcohol, including facial flushing.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=50626&nfid=al

White women's risk for osteoporosis:

Risk factors for developing osteoporosis include:

. . .Caucasian and Asian ancestry (African American and Hispanic women are at lower but significant risk)

http://www.niams.nih.gov/bone/hi/osteoporosis_hispanic_women.htm