downwardspiral 0 #26 November 29, 2006 QuoteWhy does no one get the connections? It's a pretty straightforward path to follow the Russia-China-NK-Iran-Syria connection. Russia has never stopped being one of the 'bad guys' IMO. Russia just turned into 'capitalists' IMO.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #27 November 29, 2006 Now I'm even more skeptical. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/29/uk.spy.ba.ap/index.htmlwww.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #28 November 29, 2006 QuoteRussia just turned into 'capitalists' IMO. And realizing that communism is a stupid and impractical way to run a country doesn't make you a good guy, unfortunately.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #29 November 29, 2006 Quote It's the government of Russia that I think has never been able to be trusted. The easiest chain to follow is the Russia-China arms sharing and the Russia-China support for Iraq and Iran (see who makes their arms too), then also NK (mostly china's support, but remember the soviet influences probably never went away). Iran supports the syrians... see their weapons and ideologies... and Syria supports Hezbollah and Hamas. Syria and Iran also appear to have their hands in Iraq now as well. It's just a theory... but fairly easy to see some pretty glaring connections. You gotta admit, Putin is making some strange moves for what is supposed to be a new democracy. We might think the cold war is over... but maybe it was just a couple decades' rest. Like I said, just a theory. If I took it personally every time someone spewed the "Imperial Conspiracy of GW Bush" theories... I'd be bald now. Well, you definitely have some strong opinions that I respect and will not argue with (simply because I don't see a point). My point is, what does it have to do with Litvinenko's poisoning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #30 November 30, 2006 Quote Well, you definitely have some strong opinions that I respect and will not argue with (simply because I don't see a point). My point is, what does it have to do with Litvinenko's poisoning? Ummm... the point of SC is to argue, but whatever. If the connections don't make sense, why? Why the apparent offense? As for what is has to do with the poisoning... it just gives my opinion on the background of what the government over there *might* be up to in my opinion, which would make the asassination of 1 guy look not all that far outside the realm of possibilities. I mean the connections to Moscow in the poisoning are coming out daily. The other critics and opponents of Putin that have "passed on" mysteriously doesn't lend him or his ex-KGB buddies any credibility.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #31 November 30, 2006 I don't see what the big deal is all about. He was a spy, a spy is going to get killed if they are caught or defect."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #32 November 30, 2006 Quote I don't see what the big deal is all about. He was a spy, a spy is going to get killed if they are caught or defect. Yeah, by nature it's a shady business, right? Can you imagine if it was the US that was responsible for something like this and got caught? Either way, it's an illustration (likely) of how the new Russian government may not be all that far off from the old.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #33 November 30, 2006 QuoteEither way, it's an illustration (likely) of how the new Russian government may not be all that far off from the old. Old news. Years old... Now let's dissert on why the majority of people in a country would support a government that would commit, and if not at least sanction, such acts. That's where one will find the key to the riddle. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #34 November 30, 2006 QuoteOld news. Years old... Now let's dissert on why the majority of people in a country would support a government that would commit, and if not at least sanction, such acts. That's where one will find the key to the riddle. Would you call what the government had during the worst of the commie years as popular support? If so, was it based on all the government controlled information that was fed to them? And maybe, if this type of stuff does have the support of the Russian people, it's because they liked it better when they were the US's counterpoint in Top Gun.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #35 November 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteEither way, it's an illustration (likely) of how the new Russian government may not be all that far off from the old. Old news. Years old... Now let's dissert on why the majority of people in a country would support a government that would commit, and if not at least sanction, such acts. That's where one will find the key to the riddle. Indeed!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #36 November 30, 2006 QuoteYeah, by nature it's a shady business, right? Can you imagine if it was the US that was responsible for something like this and got caught? Yes, it is a shady business. Defecting is considered treason which is punishable by death in many countries. PS: Take a look at US history and you will see that the US has executed plenty of spies. So yes, I can imagine if it was the US that was responsible for something like this and got caught."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #37 November 30, 2006 QuoteYes, it is a shady business. Defecting is considered treason which is punishable by death in many countries. PS: Take a look at US history and you will see that the US has executed plenty of spies. So yes, I can imagine if it was the US that was responsible for something like this and got caught. The US has executed "plenty" of spies? Do you mean like the ones that got caught and tried, convicted then executed? Isn't that a little different than going into another country 20 years later and asassinating someone with radioactive material? If you mean the US has done stuff like that and got caught, I'd be interested to see some cases. It'd also be interesting to see how many US agents defected to other countries to get asylum from the US and whether or not they were asassinated for talking bad about our president(s).Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #38 November 30, 2006 QuoteIt'd also be interesting to see how many US agents defected to other countries to get asylum from the US and whether or not they were asassinated for talking bad about our president(s). If this is supposed to be based on the Litvinenko case, then you are making some big assumptions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #39 December 1, 2006 QuoteAnd maybe, if this type of stuff does have the support of the Russian people, it's because they liked it better when they were the US's counterpoint in Top Gun. No. I'd venture to say that some long the days when they had decent paychecks, social security, etc... Shick therapy in Russia was a catastrophy, and Putin is the one seen as "fixing" the wrongs. People are pretty primitive in a way. What they want is food, shelter, reproducing, order and security. Give them what they want and they will support you, REGARDLESS OF THE REGIME. Democracy is a luxury only a whining few can afford. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #40 December 1, 2006 Quote Ummm... the point of SC is to argue, but whatever Yup ... I just did not feel like wasting time trying to convert you into pathetic liberal. It wouldn't work no matter how hard I tried Quote If the connections don't make sense, why? Why the apparent offense? You make a lot of assumptions. How do you know I was offended? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #41 December 1, 2006 QuoteThe US has executed "plenty" of spies? Do you mean like the ones that got caught and tried, convicted then executed? Isn't that a little different than going into another country 20 years later and asassinating someone with radioactive material? Yes, it is different. However, you can place a spy you catch on trial, you can not place a spy who defects on trial. So you try, convict and execute the spy you catch and you convict and execute the spy that defects. QuoteIf you mean the US has done stuff like that and got caught, I'd be interested to see some cases. It'd also be interesting to see how many US agents defected to other countries to get asylum from the US and whether or not they were asassinated for talking bad about our president(s). I do not have any statistics but I would guess that the US has few if any defecters due to the living standards in the US. However, if a spy were to defect and take asylum in another country I would guess that it would be almost impossible to extradite that spy and place them on trial (and I doubt that the US would allow a spy who defects to remain alive due to the security risk)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #42 December 1, 2006 QuoteFSB Front side bus? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #43 December 1, 2006 Skydekker: QuoteIf this is supposed to be based on the Litvinenko case, then you are making some big assumptions. How so? It seems to be Litvinenko's case that he defected, was given asylum and was killed. Did I miss something? http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,1952383,00.html Frenchy68: QuoteWhat they want is food, shelter, reproducing, order and security. Give them what they want and they will support you, REGARDLESS OF THE REGIME. The "Top Gun" thing was a joke. But you knew that. I know that some long for the "old days" since they were at least predictable. I know many also don't long for those times, just look at the Ukraine and their last election. AMax: QuoteYup ... I just did not feel like wasting time trying to convert you into pathetic liberal. It wouldn't work no matter how hard I tried Correct, it most DEFINITELY would not. That's like having someone ask you if they can GIVE you herpes! QuoteYou make a lot of assumptions. How do you know I was offended? Just "sounded" that way. My mistake. Butters: QuoteYes, it is different. However, you can place a spy you catch on trial, you can not place a spy who defects on trial. So you try, convict and execute the spy you catch and you convict and execute the spy that defects. And then you get the appropriate amount of shit when you get caught executing someone who is now a foreign national that has been granted asylum. It might be part of "the game" that these guys sign up for, but it most certainly wouldn't be something that the US could get away with doing today. QuoteI do not have any statistics but I would guess that the US has few if any defecters due to the living standards in the US. However, if a spy were to defect and take asylum in another country I would guess that it would be almost impossible to extradite that spy and place them on trial (and I doubt that the US would allow a spy who defects to remain alive due to the security risk). So you don't know if it's happened before. Fair enough. Either the US is REALLY good at it and hasn't gotten caught, or the US doesn't really asassinate defected spies (if any) who have been given asylum very often.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #44 December 1, 2006 The big assumption I was was talking about was this part: Quotewere asassinated for talking bad about our president(s). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #45 December 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteFSB Front side bus? t As in http://www.fsb.ru/ Federal Security Service (FSB) Federal'naya Sluzhba BezopasnostiWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #46 December 1, 2006 Quote The big assumption I was was talking about was this part: ***were asassinated for talking bad about our president(s). Yes, it is an assumption based on who the guy was, how outspoken he has been about Putin's government, and the manner in which he was killed. I guess it could just as easily have been that waiter that he stiffed on a tip though. Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #47 December 1, 2006 QuoteYes, it is an assumption based on who the guy was, how outspoken he has been about Putin's government, and the manner in which he was killed. I guess it could just as easily have been that waiter that he stiffed on a tip though. Or it could have been that he did more or threatened to do more than just talk bad about the president? Nah, that couldn't be it...all he did was talk bad.....yeah, that's right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #48 December 1, 2006 I've few doubts that Litvinenko's death was sanctioned from the top - I'm also fairly sure the outcry over the circumstances of his death were anticipated, such as the Russian counter-accusation for example. Perhaps the key point from all this is why!? The answer is fairly horrible. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #49 December 3, 2006 QuotePerhaps the key point from all this is why!? The answer is fairly horrible. Is iiiiiit.... because what he was saying is TRUE???Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jasmin 0 #50 December 4, 2006 QuoteI'm a bit skeptical that Putin did it only because the Polonium is a bit over the top for a method of assassination. Hmmmm I'm guessing you never studied Russian history....Trotsky....Ice Pick....Mexico....anyone? Don't think Putin or the FSB are that idiotic or incompetent. But if you disliked either the current govt or FSB, the deaths of Alexander Litvinenko and Anna Politkovskaya would be a fantastic way to frame them. Hit the critics and the subject of their criticism becomes the main suspect and potentially pays the price….convoluted simplicityxj "I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
