So what next?

[billvon 3,132]

112 people were killed today in Iraq. Henry Kissinger thinks that military victory is no longer possible. Tony Blair has admitted the war is a disaster. Five months ago we heard this:

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This time, U.S. military sources say, the measure of success is simple: Operation Forward Together, the massive joint military effort launched last week to finally try to secure Baghdad, has to work. If Baghdad isn't stabilized, the war is lost. "I know it's the cliche of the war," an Army counterinsurgency specialist told me last week. "But we'll know in the next six months—and this time, it'll be the last next six months we get."
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We're now in the last month of that six months. Things are still getting worse.

Let's say we do yet another "six month plan." Perhaps this time the plan is (to paraphrase another poster) "saturate Iraq with another 50,000 troops." What do we do when that doesn't work? Just continue into yet another six month plan, and watch another thousand US troops die? Or do we come up with a plan that keeps US troops alive and accomplishes at least a few of our stated goals, without paying an endless cost in human lives?

At some point everyone - even the world's foremost superpower - has to make the best of a bad situation. We were smart enough to do it in Vietnam. I think even the most ardent war supporter has to be able to conceive of the possibility that we will not accomplish all our goals in Iraq, and that we have to take what we can get. I hope any such realization comes from careful consideration of our remaining options, and not from the sheer weight of our dead. Our military deserves better than to be used for such a metric.

[Frenchy68 0]

Nothing to worry about. Insurgents have stepped up their activity because of the upcoming mid-term elections presidential elections in 2008. Things will get back to normal after the elections.

On the bright side, admission being the first step towards recovery, some seem to be coming to their senses...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[akarunway 1]

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112 people were killed today in Iraq. Henry Kissinger thinks that military victory is no longer possible. Tony Blair has admitted the war is a disaster. Five months ago we heard this:

-----------
This time, U.S. military sources say, the measure of success is simple: Operation Forward Together, the massive joint military effort launched last week to finally try to secure Baghdad, has to work. If Baghdad isn't stabilized, the war is lost. "I know it's the cliche of the war," an Army counterinsurgency specialist told me last week. "But we'll know in the next six months—and this time, it'll be the last next six months we get."
---------

We're now in the last month of that six months. Things are still getting worse.

Let's say we do yet another "six month plan." Perhaps this time the plan is (to paraphrase another poster) "saturate Iraq with another 50,000 troops." What do we do when that doesn't work? Just continue into yet another six month plan, and watch another thousand US troops die? Or do we come up with a plan that keeps US troops alive and accomplishes at least a few of our stated goals, without paying an endless cost in human lives?

At some point everyone - even the world's foremost superpower - has to make the best of a bad situation. We were smart enough to do it in Vietnam. I think even the most ardent war supporter has to be able to conceive of the possibility that we will not accomplish all our goals in Iraq, and that we have to take what we can get. I hope any such realization comes from careful consideration of our remaining options, and not from the sheer weight of our dead. Our military deserves better than to be used for such a metric.

As another poster says. We are in one fuckin big quagmire. I'm leaning to cut and run and let the locals sort it out. Tired of seeing dead bodies. I don't think history's going to be very kind to Mr. Bush and associates. All for a fucking quart /barrel of oil. Sad

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[CornishChris 5]

Maybe we should put Saddam back in charge - he seemed to have things running pretty smoothly...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Frenchy68 0]

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Maybe we should put Saddam back in charge - he seemed to have things running pretty smoothly...

In all seriousness, just for the sake of knowledge, I'd love to know what percentage of the Iraqi population would rather have him in power than the current government, given the current conditions.
In Russia, a majority of the population understands that Putin is turning quite despotic. Yet a majority of the population supports him...
Could it be that some people have greater concerns than being a democracy?
Where is the line drawn...???

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Andy9o8 3]

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In all seriousness, just for the sake of knowledge, I'd love to know what percentage of the Iraqi population would rather have [Saddam] in power than the current government, given the current conditions....
... Could it be that some people have greater concerns than being a democracy?
Where is the line drawn...???

Just speculation, but perhaps, for Baghdadis at least, the line is drawn where 50 of their number are being murdered every day, and going to the food market is suicide-bomb roulette. Fascism gains popular support (or at least acceptance) where law and order give way to anarchy.

Presumably (hopefully?), in the White House they're saying amongst themselves, "We've even lost Henry Kissinger." A generation ago, when the venerated Walter Cronkite declared the Vietnam war a lost cause, LBJ realized that if he'd lost Cronkite, he'd lost the American people. He didn't run for a second term. Too bad our current White House's little revelation didn't come a couple years sooner.

[masterrig 1]

...and a Democrat 'big-wig' wants to re-instate the draft!


Chuck

[Gawain 0]

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Maybe we should put Saddam back in charge - he seemed to have things running pretty smoothly...

In all seriousness, just for the sake of knowledge, I'd love to know what percentage of the Iraqi population would rather have him in power than the current government, given the current conditions.

Fewer than you'd think, based even on the Sunnis I talked to.

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In Russia, a majority of the population understands that Putin is turning quite despotic. Yet a majority of the population supports him...
Could it be that some people have greater concerns than being a democracy?
Where is the line drawn...???

Russia is still on the right path. The flood gates were opened when the wall fell. Using hind sight, a more measured "opening of society" would have been preferred.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,182]

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Tired of seeing dead bodies. I don't think history's going to be very kind to Mr. Bush and associates. All for a fucking quart /barrel of oil. Sad

I think it was all to flatter Bush's ego. "I want to be a War President".

Sad thing is that so many idiots supported him.

Vietnam had a chilling effect on US foreign policy for decades, and so will Bush's Iraq fiasco.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Or do we come up with a plan that keeps US troops alive and accomplishes at least a few of our stated goals, without paying an endless cost in human lives?

Clearly, this is a hard problem. Any ideas?

We are all engines of karma

[Skyrad 0]

Stay the course. This was nothing to do with a war on Islamic terrorists when we invaded, but its sure as hell is now. (As well as the locals who just want to see us out of their country) Thing is if we cut and run now it will be seen as a defeat in the eyes of the Arab world (and pretty much the rest of the world outside the US). So question is where do you want to do your fighting? Bush made the challenge on behalf of the USA 'Bring it on!' they took up the challenge, so what now? Act like a bunch of cowards without any resolve and run like fuck? We fucked it, we fix it. I was against this war from the begining but now we're their we have a obligation to see it through. If we don't then we have lost not the war but a battle in Bushs 'never ending war on terror' we may surrender but the enemy will never. So whats it to be? Dead soldiers in Iraq or dead commuters on the metro?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 3,132]

>Any ideas?

I described one idea a while back. Pull all our troops into Baghdad and pacify it; add troops if needed. With 170,000 troops in that one city I think we have a shot at making their government work. Let Kurdistan go; they want their own country anyway and are successfully policing themselves. Talk to Syria and Iran about taking over in the north, and talk to Kuwait/Saudi Arabia about taking over in the south. Let the Sunnis have their triangle (other than Baghdad.)

Results - we get our 'stronghold' in the Middle East (the city-state of Baghdad) which was one of the goals of the PNAC. We got Saddam out of power. We 'liberate' the Iraqis in Kurdistan and Baghdad. The rest of Iraq? Up to them.

The set of borders drawn out there have nothing to do with which people want to live with which people; they are lines drawn by conquerors. Perhaps it's time to let the people who live there start redrawing them.

That's just one idea. It's probably flawed. There are people with much better ideas out there; I hope we start considering them.

[billvon 3,132]

>Dead soldiers in Iraq or dead commuters on the metro?

Well, those are certainly not exclusive, since we now have both increased terrorism worldwide AND dead soldiers in Iraq. Personally, I'd choose no dead soldiers in Iraq and no dead commuters on the metro.

As a result of this war, the Middle Eastern terrorists now have:

-safe haven in Pakistan
-a recruiting ground that provides as many recruits as they want
-a real world example they can use to claim "the US hates muslims"

One of the questions we have to ask over the next few years is - how much more help do we want to give them?

[Skyrad 0]

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-safe haven in Pakistan

I'd disagree on this point. If anything it has now become more dangerous for them there than ever before. Even since the declaration by the Pakistani government about behaving themselves in return for being left alone joint Pakistani/US attacks have been conducted against millitants. This never happened before the 'War on terror'

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

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Let Kurdistan go

Turkey won't allow that.

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The set of borders drawn out there have nothing to do with which people want to live with which people; they are lines drawn by conquerors.

Yep.

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Perhaps it's time to let the people who live there start redrawing them.

That's opening a can of worms. I'm not disagreeing with you, but it would turn very ugly. Oil is now the wealth of nations.

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There are people with much better ideas out there

That's one of my major bones with the Bush administration. Good people have been voting with their feet. Not a good sign.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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As a result of this war, the Middle Eastern terrorists now have:
-safe haven in Pakistan

Read a very interesting article this morning. About 25% of the enlisted men in the Pakistani army are Pashtuns. About 12% of their officers are Pashtuns. In the last dozen top "generals", 4 have been Pashtuns. The Pakistani army risks an internal revolt if they keep trying to push into Wazuristan(sp?), which is Pashtun.

We are all engines of karma

[Frenchy68 0]

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In all seriousness, just for the sake of knowledge, I'd love to know what percentage of the Iraqi population would rather have him in power than the current government, given the current conditions.

Fewer than you'd think, based even on the Sunnis I talked to.

I actually have no idea, and wouldn't be surprised if a big majority of Iraqis would rather see Saddam fry rather than be at the reigns.

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Russia is still on the right path. The flood gates were opened when the wall fell. Using hind sight, a more measured "opening of society" would have been preferred.

I am not quite sure it is on what "we" call the right path, as political murder, and suppression of the press and the freedom of expression is now the official path Putin has taken.
But it may be the "right path" for the Russians, they will decide. Sure won't be democracy, but who knows, it may be for the better for them...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."