Gravitymaster 0 #26 November 20, 2006 QuoteAgreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago? Funny that the only opposition so far has been based on class envy. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #27 November 20, 2006 I know.. When I read Starship Troopers when I was about 12.. I LOVE the idea...AND.. it needs to be non gender specific.. I am fully capable of doing ANYTHING my peers can do...and would be better suited to do it then a bunch of guys who I have seen. I would also love to see the Officer ranks...IF you survive.... coming up thru the ranks THEN you can go to the Academy...The current Academy is kinda like that... they go for 4 years and LIVE thru some "interesting" times.. BUT it is not the same as getting out there in harms way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #28 November 20, 2006 Quote"I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel Neither do I.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #29 November 20, 2006 Am I the only one that remembers how the Dems were trying to claim that a vote for Bush is a vote for the draft (back before the 2004 election)? So much hypocisy! People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #30 November 20, 2006 QuoteAND.. it needs to be non gender specific.. I am fully capable of doing ANYTHING my peers can do...and would be better suited to do it then a bunch of guys who I have seen. I agree - but no "special compensations" or "special standards" for them. If they can't meet the standards, they shouldn't be in the job. QuoteI would also love to see the Officer ranks...IF you survive.... coming up thru the ranks THEN you can go to the Academy Seem like the "mustangs" seem to make either the best or the worst officers. The good ones remember what it was like when they were enlisted and take care of their guys, while the bad ones seem to want to "get even"...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #31 November 20, 2006 Quote but would not produce a _better_ military Milton Friedman dies, and they're already trying to unlearn his teaching.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #32 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe only way to make it work is for EVERYONE..... to perform some kind of service to country.. you go.. no matter who the hell you are. After going thru a Basic training.. then move off the 18 year olds based on their abilities into military.. nursing... conservation corps.... etc.. AND make it based strictly on computer models.. NONE of the favoritism given to the well to do.. or well connected.... thru their LOCAL Draft Boards... After your service you get educational benefits.... and I would take it one step further... THE RIGHT TO VOTE. Perhaps that would cure some of the apathy in this country... you serve.. you get to be part of the process... you do not serve...you can look on and bitch all you want... as so many do now.. but you dont get to participate in the process. You realize Hell just froze over don't you? - Not at all, American liberals are close to Socialism in their ideology, many Socialist countries have compulsory military service for men. This country is caught between Capitalsim (corporate run) and conservatism, they want military service to be electoral so the rich can avoid it, the poor and unrepresented are often relegated to it fro lack of better things to do. Look at the criminals running the country now, by that I mean the cabinet, Congress, etc., how many have military service? How many are dems, how many conservs? This concept of: - Dems = pussies, dodgers, cowards, weak - Repubs = tough, protectors, brilliant, ethical is BS. How is it hard to believe that a liberal wants compulsory military service? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #33 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteAgreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago? Funny that the only opposition so far has been based on class envy. - I see, because I haven't had medical coverage most of my adult life, I'm envious? Perhaps I'm disgusted at the classist nation this is. Perhaps I'm envious of countries that establish medical and social services for ALL people in their country - citizens. So class privilege disgusts me, not makes me envious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #34 November 20, 2006 Quote Oh yes: two things could help offset the predictable unpopularity of a draft: 1. GENEROUS college & grad school educational benefits 2. Full lifetime universal health care for veterans and their families. Very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. Quote Wouldn't be a bad "compromise" way to ease our society into the universal health care that every other industrialized country has, but this country tends to resist as overly socialistic. While I am a capitalist, I'm not convinced that capitalism as practiced in its current form in the US is a long term stable system. I think we have the best system in practice in the world today, but the keyword here is today.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #35 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuote"I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel Neither do I. Ditto. But you can despise the war and support ot not support the draft IMO. But yes, if you are for this so-called patriotic exhibition, you must logically be for the draft so all men can defend their country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #36 November 20, 2006 Quote Some type of means test could apply. Here's the problem I see with a means test. If you're in the "middle" and want to accept aid, accepting that aid will still drive you to the the "lower" end. It won't allow you and your family to maintain the standard of living that's been built within your family.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #37 November 20, 2006 QuoteAm I the only one that remembers how the Dems were trying to claim that a vote for Bush is a vote for the draft (back before the 2004 election)? So much hypocisy! Not hypocrisy. So one guy from the Dems is for the draft. Odds are he is trying to establish that the rich don;t want this, so it's more of an 'exclusive club' statement. I'm not for the draft, but I would be for compulsory service. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #38 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAgreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago? Funny that the only opposition so far has been based on class envy. - I see, because I haven't had medical coverage most of my adult life, I'm envious? Perhaps I'm disgusted at the classist nation this is. Perhaps I'm envious of countries that establish medical and social services for ALL people in their country - citizens. So class privilege disgusts me, not makes me envious. You can't afford medical insurance, but you can afford to skydive - sounds like a priorities problem to me, not a societal problem.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #39 November 20, 2006 Quote AND make it based strictly on computer models.. Ah, this ain't the answer. 1) Who builds the computer models? 2) Who decides the models are "right"? Way too much room for abuse there, and it'll be "hidden" abuse. Every people system must have multiple/ sets of eyes involved in order for the system to work. Removing "eyes" from this problem is not the answer.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #40 November 20, 2006 QuoteNot at all, American liberals are close to Socialism in their ideology. How is it hard to believe that a liberal wants compulsory military service? Considering the socialist leaning of the typical American liberal have to do with feeding at the public trough, which is primarily funded by the upper income earners AND NOT with contributing to the overall welfare of society, I'd say implementing a national compulsory service requirement is practically impossible. We're talking about telling 18 years olds to give up two years of their lives. Can you imagine the civil rights issues that would ensue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #41 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAgreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago? Funny that the only opposition so far has been based on class envy. - I see, because I haven't had medical coverage most of my adult life, I'm envious? Perhaps I'm disgusted at the classist nation this is. Perhaps I'm envious of countries that establish medical and social services for ALL people in their country - citizens. So class privilege disgusts me, not makes me envious. I'm curious as to why you seem to believe medical coverage is a right? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #42 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuote Some type of means test could apply. Here's the problem I see with a means test. If you're in the "middle" and want to accept aid, accepting that aid will still drive you to the the "lower" end. It won't allow you and your family to maintain the standard of living that's been built within your family. I was talking about deciding who serves where. If someone has a medical reason they couldn't serve in combat, they could help with Airport Security etc. The main point is everyone serves in some capacity. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #43 November 20, 2006 Quote I'm curious as to why you seem to believe medical coverage is a right? So, living free from pain is a privelage?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #44 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteAm I the only one that remembers how the Dems were trying to claim that a vote for Bush is a vote for the draft (back before the 2004 election)? So much hypocisy! Not hypocrisy. So one guy from the Dems is for the draft. Odds are he is trying to establish that the rich don;t want this, so it's more of an 'exclusive club' statement. I'm not for the draft, but I would be for compulsory service. I'm for both. I think Rangel would have a better chance of selling this if he focussed more on the Public Service aspect and less on the draft. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #45 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuote Oh yes: two things could help offset the predictable unpopularity of a draft: 1. GENEROUS college & grad school educational benefits 2. Full lifetime universal health care for veterans and their families. Very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. Quote Wouldn't be a bad "compromise" way to ease our society into the universal health care that every other industrialized country has, but this country tends to resist as overly socialistic. While I am a capitalist, I'm not convinced that capitalism as practiced in its current form in the US is a long term stable system. I think we have the best system in practice in the world today, but the keyword here is today. QuoteWhile I am a capitalist, I'm not convinced that capitalism as practiced in its current form in the US is a long term stable system. Gee, ya think? What makes you think that, the 8.5T debt? We are headed in a direction we Americans so easily and apathetically are ignoring. The Commies will be laughing when our system falls. We supposedly beat them by outspending them in the military dept, yet we ran up a debt from 1T to 4T by the end of teh Bush1 admin, so our will was a hallow victory, we too will economically fall. As with most fights, it produces 2 losers rather than 1 winner/1 loser; this too will be the case. Communism - The gov controls everything Capitalism - The market controls everything (the market is controlled by the elite, so the elite control everything) Socialism - The people control everything Hmmmmm, I wonder which system is the most fair to the everyday person? QuoteI think we have the best system in practice in the world today, but the keyword here is today. Good for you, you must have money. It is one of teh worst systems in the world if you are broke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #46 November 20, 2006 >I'm curious as to why you seem to believe medical coverage is a right? Because we are not the sort of people who would leave a child to die in the street because she didn't have medical coverage. Our current two-tier system (i.e. ER's don't turn people away) is the direct result of that sort of philosophy. Medical coverage is not a protected right under the constitution or our laws. It is in _effect_ a protected right because of our compassion. To me, that's not the end of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #47 November 20, 2006 Quote Good for you, you must have money. It is one of teh worst systems in the world if you are broke. I've been in both places. This is a hard society to live in if you don't have money (for whatever reason).We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #48 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuote Some type of means test could apply. Here's the problem I see with a means test. If you're in the "middle" and want to accept aid, accepting that aid will still drive you to the the "lower" end. It won't allow you and your family to maintain the standard of living that's been built within your family. Pardon me if I misspell, I just fell out of my chair. Are you trying to convince the poor and middle class that they will be worse off for accepting social services? Please, go back and reread what you wrote. How is it that being in a position of need, then getting the help you need will make you worse off? Quote...maintain the standard of living that's been built within your family Uh, their families standard of living is apparently too low or they wouldn't need help. I just can't fathom what you're saying here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #49 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAgreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago? Funny that the only opposition so far has been based on class envy. - I see, because I haven't had medical coverage most of my adult life, I'm envious? Perhaps I'm disgusted at the classist nation this is. Perhaps I'm envious of countries that establish medical and social services for ALL people in their country - citizens. So class privilege disgusts me, not makes me envious. You can't afford medical insurance, but you can afford to skydive - sounds like a priorities problem to me, not a societal problem. I don't skydive that often. Futhermore, living to turn my money over to a corporation so they can decide whether I get medical attention or not is not workable for me; I would rather be dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 November 20, 2006 QuoteI'm for both. I think Rangel would have a better chance of selling this if he focussed more on the Public Service aspect and less on the draft.- Rangel doesn't really mean it. He's making a posturing recommendation/speech only. It's a different kind of 'politics of fear'. Normal politics - create a false position, furiously posture over it, then use that to convince more voters to vote for you next time. "Hey, I'm against the draft, vote for me" or "Hey, I want to make sure the spoiled rich have to serve like Joe-normal so I put it out there - vote for me" or "Hey, I want to make sure the welfare generation has to serve like Joe-apple-pie, so I voted for it - vote for me" All they have to do is see what their voters tend for and then espouse any one of these speeches to pander it up. In the meantime, nothing happens anyway other than wasted taxpayer money to pay these guys to create PR generating busy work for themselves. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
