Gravitymaster 0 #1 November 19, 2006 Would you support a return to the draft? ***Rep. Rangel Will Seek to Reinstate Draft By JOHN HEILPRIN The Associated Press Sunday, November 19, 2006; 1:31 PM WASHINGTON -- Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way. Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars and to bolster U.S. troop levels insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq. "There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said. Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War who has unsuccessfully sponsored legislation on conscription in the past, said he will propose a measure early next year. In 2003, he proposed a measure covering people age 18 to 26. This year, he offered a plan to mandate military service for men and women between age 18 and 42; it went nowhere in the Republican-led Congress. Democrats will control the House and Senate come January because of their victories in the Nov. 7 election. At a time when some lawmakers are urging the military to send more troops to Iraq, "I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel, who also proposed a draft in January 2003, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Standby Reserve, said he agreed that the U.S. does not have enough people in the military. "I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option," said Graham, who is assigned as a reserve judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Rangel, the next chairman of the House tax-writing committee, said he worried the military was being strained by its overseas commitments. "If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," Rangel said. He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service. Graham said he believes the all-voluntary military "represents the country pretty well in terms of ethnic makeup, economic background." Repeated polls have shown that about seven in 10 Americans oppose reinstatement of the draft and officials say they do not expect to restart conscription. Outgoing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told Congress in June 2005 that "there isn't a chance in the world that the draft will be brought back." Yet the prospect of the long global fight against terrorism and the continuing U.S. commitment to stabilizing Iraq have kept the idea in the public's mind. The military drafted conscripts during the Civil War, both world wars and between 1948 and 1973. An agency independent of the Defense Department, the Selective Service System trains, keeps an updated registry of men age 18-25 _ now about 16 million _ from which to supply untrained draftees that would supplement the professional all-volunteer armed forces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #2 November 19, 2006 An interesting question, although it doesn't stand a chance of passage. Getting away from an all-volunteer military would tend to cut down on the willingness of the people so inducted to do a good job. So if your objective is to just get cannon fodder it would work, but would not produce a _better_ military. But perhaps sheer numbers is what we need to continue the occupation. It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. In terms of our society, it might have some overall benefits. It might get some at-risk young men and women into an environment that helps them make something of themselves, and would almost certainly spur younger people to get involved with government more, vote, research the issues around global conflicts etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #3 November 19, 2006 QuoteAn interesting question, although it doesn't stand a chance of passage. Getting away from an all-volunteer military would tend to cut down on the willingness of the people so inducted to do a good job. So if your objective is to just get cannon fodder it would work, but would not produce a _better_ military. But perhaps sheer numbers is what we need to continue the occupation. It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. In terms of our society, it might have some overall benefits. It might get some at-risk young men and women into an environment that helps them make something of themselves, and would almost certainly spur younger people to get involved with government more, vote, research the issues around global conflicts etc. Amazingly enough, I agree with you 100%. Well said. I especially think it will help people more appreciate the freedoms they have in the US and make them feel more connected to society. I think something else to consider would be a way to tie service to some type of student loan program to assist in continued education. I can think of a lot of other benefits but I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 November 19, 2006 Already, the Selective Service registration laws apply only to young men, and not women. I disagree with that policy discrepancy. Whether you put women in combat or not (separate debate), they should have no more immunity from mandatory registration and, if need be, service, than men have. My very quick Google search reveals about 6 countries that currently conscript women. (I suppose it's possible that if women are made subject an actual draft, we might see an up-tick in births if women get pregnant to avoid service.) I also vividly remember, during the last draft (which ended in the 1970's), all the deferments for college, etc., which tended to benefit the more affluent. A modern draft would have to remain devoid of that kind of crap to maintain any public support. Oh yes: two things could help offset the predictable unpopularity of a draft: 1. GENEROUS college & grad school educational benefits 2. Full lifetime universal health care for veterans and their families. Wouldn't be a bad "compromise" way to ease our society into the universal health care that every other industrialized country has, but this country tends to resist as overly socialistic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #5 November 19, 2006 I think a draft is a bad idea. If you put people in a combat situation who haven't signed up, haven't agreed, don't think it's right, and don't want to be there, that seems like a recipe for disaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #6 November 19, 2006 I think a huge incentive would be if, for every year served, $25,000 in federal student loans would be forgiven. I see people coming out of law school and med school, and even college, with $100K plus in federal loans. Sure, there are military scholarships while you're in school, but not much assistance after the fact, when people realize "OMG, I've got a $2000 student loan payment every month!" Seems like a lot of people would jump at the chance to help pay down their loans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #7 November 19, 2006 QuoteAlready, the Selective Service registration laws apply only to young men, and not women. I disagree with that policy discrepancy. Whether you put women in combat or not (separate debate), they should have no more immunity from mandatory registration and, if need be, service, than men have. My very quick Google search reveals about 6 countries that currently conscript women. Yep, I agree that women would need to be included. Note that Rangel's plan isn't just about Military Service. He wants to give an alternative to those who are incapable or uneeded for the Military. I think the idea of providing some type of public service whether it be helping provide airport security, hospitals or something similar with an education benefit is a good idea and one I've supported for quite a while. Quote(I suppose it's possible that if women are made subject an actual draft, we might see an up-tick in births if women get pregnant to avoid service.) Probably no more as a percentage than we have now. QuoteI also vividly remember, during the last draft (which ended in the 1970's), all the deferments for college, etc., which tended to benefit the more affluent. A modern draft would have to remain devoid of that kind of crap to maintain any public support. Agreed. Again, Rangel's proposal isn't just about Military Service, so I think whatever criteria is set for deciding who serves where would have to be applied fairly. QuoteOh yes: two things could help offset the predictable unpopularity of a draft: 1. GENEROUS college & grad school educational benefits Agreed. Quote2. Full lifetime universal health care for veterans and their families. Wouldn't be a bad "compromise" way to ease our society into the universal health care that every other industrialized country has, but this country tends to resist as overly socialistic. I disagree this is the best way to make sure everyone is covered. If we are going to cover everyone, then let's reinstate Welfare and expand AFDF. Giving an educational benefits for service should reduce the need for depending on govt. to pay for healthcare. But I digress. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #8 November 19, 2006 QuoteI think a draft is a bad idea. If you put people in a combat situation who haven't signed up, haven't agreed, don't think it's right, and don't want to be there, that seems like a recipe for disaster. I grew up during the Vietnam War, so I certainly understand that sentiment. FWIW, this country has had an active draft (i.e., not just registration, like today) during the Civil War, WW1, WW2, and (I think) pretty constantly from Pearl Harbor until the early 1970's, in both wartime (Korea & Vietnam) and peacetime. (For example, Elvis Presley was drafted in 1957, during peacetime. Back then, prior to Vietnam, nobody even questioned the draft - it was simply an accepted part of the duty of citizenship, like jury duty.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #9 November 19, 2006 QuoteI think a draft is a bad idea. If you put people in a combat situation who haven't signed up, haven't agreed, don't think it's right, and don't want to be there, that seems like a recipe for disaster. Some type of means test could apply. That way if someone has a good reason or if the Military doesn't want them, that persn could serve in another way. I think the point is that some type of service in some capacity with an educational benefit is an interesting concept and one I'd like to see advanced. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #10 November 19, 2006 As an aside, you know what I worry about re: the "alternative service"? - that it will be (ab)used as a modern-day dodge by people with money and/or savvy and/or political connections, just like during Vietnam people used college deferments or getting plumb slots in the National Guard to avoid getting shipped off to a hot zone. Rich Daddy's doctor gets his son an excuse for inner-ear vertigo, so he only has to guard the airport. In the meantime, some poor kid who doesn't have that kind of angle get shipped off to some sandbox or jungle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #11 November 19, 2006 QuoteAs an aside, you know what I worry about re: the "alternative service"? - that it will be (ab)used as a modern-day dodge by people with money and/or savvy and/or political connections, just like during Vietnam people used college deferments or getting plumb slots in the National Guard to avoid getting shipped off to a hot zone. Rich Daddy's doctor gets his son an excuse for inner-ear vertigo, so he only has to guard the airport. In the meantime, some poor kid who doesn't have that kind of angle get shipped off to some sandbox or jungle. You are right, the potential for abuse is there and I have no doubt the filtering process would be abused. Even with that said, I think the overall benefit to the US would far outweigh the annoyance of abuses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #12 November 19, 2006 Well, the logic makes sense in a strange sort of a way, but (a) it will never pass, and (b) raising military compensation would be a better idea.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #13 November 19, 2006 Quote Well, the logic makes sense in a strange sort of a way, but (a) it will never pass, and (b) raising military compensation would be a better idea. Where do you see the greatest opposition coming from? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #14 November 19, 2006 QuoteQuote Well, the logic makes sense in a strange sort of a way, but (a) it will never pass, and (b) raising military compensation would be a better idea. Where do you see the greatest opposition coming from? - From: 1. People too young to remember a time when conscription, even during peacetime, was "normal" 2. People of the Vietnam era who remember when the draft became a palpable and despised symbol of the quagmire of Vietnam, and the use of the draft to generate cannon fodder for the war, and have that permanently etched into their psyches. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #15 November 20, 2006 Quote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #16 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? In VietNam the well connected found ways of getting around it, like finding their kids a billet in the NG.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #17 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? In VietNam the well connected found ways of getting around it, like finding their kids a billet in the NG. Or getting college deferment for ROTC, then bailing on the responsibility while in England.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #18 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? In VietNam the well connected found ways of getting around it, like finding their kids a billet in the NG. Of course that would never happen again. Gimme a break. The draft is NOT the answer! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #19 November 20, 2006 QuoteThe draft is NOT the answer! But it does bring forth an important question. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination. Heed the sound of one hand clapping, Grasshopper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #20 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? In VietNam the well connected found ways of getting around it, like finding their kids a billet in the NG. So regardless of any societal benefit like money for an education, increasing our defense capabilities, greater involvement of the citizenry in how the country is run, you think it's a bad idea because some rich guy might be able to get a deferrment for his kid? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #21 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote It would certainly cut down on optional wars. Nothing like knowing your son might be drafted (and killed) by a war you voted for to make a senator reconsider his vote. How'd that work in Korea and Viet Nam? In VietNam the well connected found ways of getting around it, like finding their kids a billet in the NG. So regardless of any societal benefit like money for an education, increasing our defense capabilities, greater involvement of the citizenry in how the country is run, you think it's a bad idea because some rich guy might be able to get a deferrment for his kid? - No, only if Republicans do it, based on past comments...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #22 November 20, 2006 I too, agree with you, 100%. Like so many of us in this country, I lived through the draft during Viet Nam. In brief... it didn't work then and it won't work now. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #23 November 20, 2006 The only way to make it work is for EVERYONE..... to perform some kind of service to country.. you go.. no matter who the hell you are. After going thru a Basic training.. then move off the 18 year olds based on their abilities into military.. nursing... conservation corps.... etc.. AND make it based strictly on computer models.. NONE of the favoritism given to the well to do.. or well connected.... thru their LOCAL Draft Boards... After your service you get educational benefits.... and I would take it one step further... THE RIGHT TO VOTE. Perhaps that would cure some of the apathy in this country... you serve.. you get to be part of the process... you do not serve...you can look on and bitch all you want... as so many do now.. but you dont get to participate in the process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #24 November 20, 2006 QuoteThe only way to make it work is for EVERYONE..... to perform some kind of service to country.. you go.. no matter who the hell you are. After going thru a Basic training.. then move off the 18 year olds based on their abilities into military.. nursing... conservation corps.... etc.. AND make it based strictly on computer models.. NONE of the favoritism given to the well to do.. or well connected.... thru their LOCAL Draft Boards... After your service you get educational benefits.... and I would take it one step further... THE RIGHT TO VOTE. Perhaps that would cure some of the apathy in this country... you serve.. you get to be part of the process... you do not serve...you can look on and bitch all you want... as so many do now.. but you dont get to participate in the process. You realize Hell just froze over don't you? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #25 November 20, 2006 Agreed - it's not a new idea, by any means; Heinlein espoused it in "Starship Troopers" what, 50 years ago?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
