Gawain 0 #1 November 15, 2006 The Top US commander warns against setting timetables for withdrawl of US troops. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061115/ap_on_go_co/congress_iraq_9 Will the new leadership in Congress listen? Or, will they invoke their own strategy? I won't use the mantra that has been getting chanted by so many on the right, as I don't see it from that perspective. There is merit to keeping a focus within the "cradle of civilization", as it will have a lasting affect through the region.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #2 November 15, 2006 >Or, will they invoke their own strategy? I certainly hope they choose a _better_ strategy. "More of the same" isn't working, pulling everyone out won't work either. Needless to say, the final decision will still lie with the president; I hope he can listen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #3 November 15, 2006 Here's how I see it: The insurgents are different grooups with different, sometimes conflicting, motives. Some groups are fighting against the foreign occupiers. One of these groups would be Iraqi nationalists. Another group would be foreign jihadists. Some groups are fighting sectarian wars. And some are former Baathists who are fighting against the current Iraqi government. If we removed our troops, some of the insurgents would no longer be as strongly motivated to fight (these would be the groups focusing specifically on the foreign occupation). Other insurgents would go on fighting after we were gone, since the sectarian division would still be present. The question is, how many of each type of insurgent are there? Are enough of them "anti-occupation" insurgents, such that if we left, most of them would no longer fight, & maybe some of them would declare some sort of truce with the Iraqi government? Many of them would view the current Iraqi government as an American puppet, of course. But in the Arab world in general, the propaganda would no longer be able to say that the violence is "a resistance against foreign occupation." at least not without challenge. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #4 November 15, 2006 The Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #5 November 15, 2006 QuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #6 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #7 November 15, 2006 >It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend . . . I think they'll do that about as much as the GOP did - that is, they will take every recommendation they agree with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #8 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire. So following your logic, the Dems will ignore anyone who advocates anything less than withdrawl just to appease their base? You actually think they will play politics with the war? Say it ain't so. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #9 November 15, 2006 QuoteIt's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. Why do you think it's the far left who elected the current slate of Democrats? It seems to me they already had the far left, and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #10 November 15, 2006 >and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Indeed. It makes me hopeful that the democrats will recognize that they have to keep that center to stay in power; hopefully this will prevent the extremism that political parties are often subject to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #11 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire. So following your logic, the Dems will ignore anyone who advocates anything less than withdrawl just to appease their base? You actually think they will play politics with the war? Say it ain't so. - Wierd and unfounded leap of logic to reach that conclusion. Bush's refusal to listen to advice implies nothing whatsoever about the Democratic leadership's actions.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #12 November 16, 2006 The Dems will listen about as much as the Repubs listend when other military people said the opposite. Pretty much not at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #13 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire. So following your logic, the Dems will ignore anyone who advocates anything less than withdrawl just to appease their base? You actually think they will play politics with the war? Say it ain't so. - Wierd and unfounded leap of logic to reach that conclusion. Bush's refusal to listen to advice implies nothing whatsoever about the Democratic leadership's actions. Then why did you bring it up? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #14 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire. So following your logic, the Dems will ignore anyone who advocates anything less than withdrawl just to appease their base? You actually think they will play politics with the war? Say it ain't so. - Wierd and unfounded leap of logic to reach that conclusion. Bush's refusal to listen to advice implies nothing whatsoever about the Democratic leadership's actions. Then why did you bring it up? - That would be obvious to most readers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #15 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. Why do you think it's the far left who elected the current slate of Democrats? It seems to me they already had the far left, and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Blues, Dave I think you are discounting and/or ignoring the effects of Moveon.Org (Soros & Howard Dean) and DailyKos to name a few, had on the elections. If you go over there, they are crowing about what they were able to accomplish and they definitely are pushing for an immediate withdrawl. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #16 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe Dems will hear everything.... everything they want to hear. just like all politicians It's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. - We know for a FACT that Bush and Rumsfeld dismissed military experts who didn't agree with their plans to create a quagmire. So following your logic, the Dems will ignore anyone who advocates anything less than withdrawl just to appease their base? You actually think they will play politics with the war? Say it ain't so. - Wierd and unfounded leap of logic to reach that conclusion. Bush's refusal to listen to advice implies nothing whatsoever about the Democratic leadership's actions. Then why did you bring it up? - That would be obvious to most readers. I agree. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #17 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. Why do you think it's the far left who elected the current slate of Democrats? It seems to me they already had the far left, and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Blues, Dave I think you are discounting and/or ignoring the effects of Moveon.Org (Soros & Howard Dean) and DailyKos to name a few, had on the elections. If you go over there, they are crowing about what they were able to accomplish and they definitely are pushing for an immediate withdrawl. I don't know whether it's discounting or ignoring; I just don't have any idea what they've been up to. Are they bragging that they got out the far left vote (it seems to me extremists in any direction usually vote)? Or are they bragging that they attracted the green and socialist party votes (not that difficult in an off-cycle election)? Either way, I'll still maintain it was the moderates who tipped the scales this time. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #18 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIt's going to be interesting to watch the Dems try to listen and abide by what them Military Experts recommend and still appease the far left who elected them because of their promise to start withdrawing troops. Why do you think it's the far left who elected the current slate of Democrats? It seems to me they already had the far left, and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Blues, Dave I think you are discounting and/or ignoring the effects of Moveon.Org (Soros & Howard Dean) and DailyKos to name a few, had on the elections. If you go over there, they are crowing about what they were able to accomplish and they definitely are pushing for an immediate withdrawl. I don't know whether it's discounting or ignoring; I just don't have any idea what they've been up to. Are they bragging that they got out the far left vote (it seems to me extremists in any direction usually vote)? Or are they bragging that they attracted the green and socialist party votes (not that difficult in an off-cycle election)? Either way, I'll still maintain it was the moderates who tipped the scales this time. Blues, Dave The Moveon.Org's and others blogs had a tremendous impact in getting Democratic voters to the polls. I believe this election was an all time high in that respect. So they were able to turn out the voters and those voters pulled the Democratic lever regardless of the candidate. At the same time, in order to win over moderate Republicans and not alienate the conservative Democrats in certain areas, the Dems ran more moderate candidates. The combination of the two IMO was the winning formula. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #19 November 16, 2006 Quote>and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Indeed. It makes me hopeful that the democrats will recognize that they have to keep that center to stay in power; hopefully this will prevent the extremism that political parties are often subject to. They aren't getting off to a real good start with Pelosi favoring a hard lefty like Murtha over a more moderate like Steny Hoyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 November 16, 2006 QuoteThe Moveon.Org's and others blogs had a tremendous impact in getting Democratic voters to the polls. I believe this election was an all time high in that respect. So they were able to turn out the voters and those voters pulled the Democratic lever regardless of the candidate. At the same time, in order to win over moderate Republicans and not alienate the conservative Democrats in certain areas, the Dems ran more moderate candidates. The combination of the two IMO was the winning formula. I'm not surprised that left-leaning organizations are taking credit, just like I imagine right-leaning organizations are probably pointing fingers. That's the way such groups work. Regardless of moveon.org's claims to the contrary, I believe that GWB gave the Democrats a hell of a lot more votes than all of the fringe political websites combined. And I doubt he's losing any sleep over it, as it kinda sets the table for '08. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #21 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuote>and it was the middle who won them these majorities. Indeed. It makes me hopeful that the democrats will recognize that they have to keep that center to stay in power; hopefully this will prevent the extremism that political parties are often subject to. They aren't getting off to a real good start with Pelosi favoring a hard lefty like Murtha over a more moderate like Steny Hoyer. Murtha is the ideal person for helping Pelosi "drain the swamp". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
