Lucky... 0 #151 November 18, 2006 QuoteThink that if it makes you feel better...I think things because theyare correct. You have presented no data to conclusively back your assertions. Kind of like when you try and discuss the budget. When you deal with someone who is familiar with it, you really have to back up what you say. You have failed to do so. Utterly. The budget, well I would love to talk the budget and how the debt was 1 trillion as Reagna took office and is now 8.5T. During the Clinton presidency it rose 1.5T, but he inherited a steep incline that he truned horizontal, which Bushthen turned vertical at such a rate that it doubled Regan/Bush's huge increases. I've posted that several times, do I need to post it again? You can't sem to explain it, just tell me to read up. No, you explain why the debt is the way it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #152 November 18, 2006 QuoteBUT, the college kids are more intellectual. Quote I think this is simply an opinion. I have met many intellectual people in my life who had little or no education. Likewise, i have met many who are well educated who are not very intellectual. Education in itself does not quantify intellect. As a young enlisted soldier, I met many intellectual, but uneducated soldiers. They are different things. Isn't 3.80+ Suma Cum Loudly? It is here, Magna is 3.60-3.79. My mistake. I guess I was Summa....doesn't really matter in light of this post Guess I am not "intellectual" for not remembering which honors I received. QuoteI bet if you IQ tested with your friends at 2 years in the service/college you would have been smoked. Now you would smoke themQuote Here is where your logic is completely off. You are trying to argue using IQ and education the same. Quoted from How Stuff Works (because it represents what I am trying to say in a more concise manner) "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge. Learning new information does not automatically increase your IQ. Education does not automatically increase your IQ either. adult IQ scores don't significantly increase over time. There is evidence that maintaining an intellectually stimulating atmosphere (by learning new skills or solving puzzles, for example) boosts some cognitive ability, similar to the way maintaining an exercise regimen boosts physical ability, but these changes aren't permanent and do not have much effect on IQ scores. So your IQ score is relatively stable, no matter what education you acquire. This does not mean that you can't increase your intelligence. IQ tests are only one imperfect method of measuring certain aspects of intellectual ability. A lot of critics point out that IQ tests don't measure creativity, social skills, wisdom, acquired abilities or a host of other things we consider to be aspects of intelligence" (my emphasis in bold) And I agree with matthewcline. i don't think I am an anomoly, exceptional, or unique in my experience. I have found similar experiences in other people who had military service.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #153 November 18, 2006 QuoteHer experience is not unique in the current Army. I take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. The argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Education does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. Why can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined? QuoteI take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. Then how do you test intelligence? Life experience? How much life experience can an 18YO have? QuoteThe argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Those prone to educate and be excited about that genre tend to go to school after high school. Those who regard education as meaningless tend to go into the trades, military or other things. QuoteEducation does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. As an average it does. There are people who will self-educate, but generally, as an average, education leads to higher intellect, higher IQ, etc. QuoteWhy can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined? Why can't you read? I did write that, do I need to go back and show you? But the military guys of today are less intelligent than the college kids of today. Same proportion existed back then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #154 November 18, 2006 >Why can't you read? Your last warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #155 November 18, 2006 QuoteOK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? ASVAB? GPA? Income? Job Title and position? Those are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness. QuoteOK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? Yes ASVAB? Yes, somewhat. GPA? Sure, but this can be skewed. Income? No way. Job Title and position? No way. QuoteThose are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness. The SAT and ASVAB and GPA are not material, they're intellectual. QuoteSuccess True intellect Life Hapiness Success Many people are successful w/o education, but there is a very definite correlation between education and vocational success. True intellect As opposed to false intellect? True intellect infers to me a true, definite measure of intellectuality, so this would relegate education to be of utmost importance. Life Education has nothing to with life? Uh, ok. WHat seperates us from 3rd world countries? Education, knowledge. Hapiness That's subjective, some are dumb-n-happy, ignorance is bliss, others aren't happy unless they have the keys to the universe. Don't speak for otehrs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #156 November 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteBUT, the college kids are more intellectual. Quote I think this is simply an opinion. I have met many intellectual people in my life who had little or no education. Likewise, i have met many who are well educated who are not very intellectual. Education in itself does not quantify intellect. As a young enlisted soldier, I met many intellectual, but uneducated soldiers. They are different things. Isn't 3.80+ Suma Cum Loudly? It is here, Magna is 3.60-3.79. My mistake. I guess I was Summa....doesn't really matter in light of this post Guess I am not "intellectual" for not remembering which honors I received. QuoteI bet if you IQ tested with your friends at 2 years in the service/college you would have been smoked. Now you would smoke themQuote Here is where your logic is completely off. You are trying to argue using IQ and education the same. Quoted from How Stuff Works (because it represents what I am trying to say in a more concise manner) "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge. Learning new information does not automatically increase your IQ. Education does not automatically increase your IQ either. adult IQ scores don't significantly increase over time. There is evidence that maintaining an intellectually stimulating atmosphere (by learning new skills or solving puzzles, for example) boosts some cognitive ability, similar to the way maintaining an exercise regimen boosts physical ability, but these changes aren't permanent and do not have much effect on IQ scores. So your IQ score is relatively stable, no matter what education you acquire. This does not mean that you can't increase your intelligence. IQ tests are only one imperfect method of measuring certain aspects of intellectual ability. A lot of critics point out that IQ tests don't measure creativity, social skills, wisdom, acquired abilities or a host of other things we consider to be aspects of intelligence" (my emphasis in bold) And I agree with matthewcline. i don't think I am an anomoly, exceptional, or unique in my experience. I have found similar experiences in other people who had military service. QuoteI think this is simply an opinion. I have met many intellectual people in my life who had little or no education. Likewise, i have met many who are well educated who are not very intellectual. Education in itself does not quantify intellect. As a young enlisted soldier, I met many intellectual, but uneducated soldiers. They are different things. Let's talk Einstein, he came off as an idiot, so it is written, yet he was a genius. Many brilliant people can't relate in society, whereas many idiots like car salesmen, realtors, etc come off as intelligent and engaging, yet aren't intellectual at all. Intelligence i=needs to be tested to be measured. QuoteMy mistake. I guess I was Summa....doesn't really matter in light of this post Guess I am not "intellectual" for not remembering which honors I received. No it doesn't matter, I'm not posing and Ad Hominem, but if I graduated Cum Loudly I would have known. I'm a details guy. QuoteHere is where your logic is completely off. You are trying to argue using IQ and education the same. "are the same." I would say that they aren't carbon copies, but there is a correlation. 1) I'm talking average, not individuals. 2) There is a correlation between education and IQ, SAT, etc.. QuoteQuoted from How Stuff Works (because it represents what I am trying to say in a more concise manner) What is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. QuoteAnd I agree with matthewcline. i don't think I am an anomoly, exceptional, or unique in my experience. I have found similar experiences in other people who had military service. You are for 3 reasons: 1) You have a grad degree 2) You graduated Suma Cum Loudly 3) You were one of the 6.9% of Army people who were attending college at about the time you were likely in. http://www.dod.gov/prhome/poprep98/html/2-education.html Impeach that. Imperically explain how as of 2004 10% of Army enlistees attend college and 47% of civilians have colege. Leave the artsy-farsty, "let's give GI's a break" behind and explain that for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #157 November 18, 2006 The statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #158 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University. QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. Do you think the DOD is AFU? I don't see them as biased, and if they are they would be for the troops. I just don't see them as anything but a repository of information. So maybe you should impeach the DOD website as inaccurate, I'm just posting a very objective government data site. Again, we keep talking averages here, not you and your buddies, the platoon down the way, etc... Perhaps you guys are exceptional too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #159 November 18, 2006 The sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #160 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings! Well, as with most studies, methodology is key. So perhaps investigate their method for collecting data, but until then I think the burden shifts to your side to overthrow the factuality of the data. Don't get me wrong, I fully respect the sacrifice given, I just think that young people entering the service are less intellectual than their counterparts who attend college, but I know of many who get out and become very intelligent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jshatzkin 0 #161 November 18, 2006 QuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #162 November 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. QuoteThe truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. Uh, well, I wouldn't say that's true all of the time, but sometimes it is. Let's not get tangented. I posted the data for educational comparisons in 1998 and in 2004 from the DOD, this is not skewed data and I believe probably fairly accurate. But my argument is the only one that provided data and other sources of reference, so it is the standing argument. QuoteA good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. I agree, I've posted all kinds of data and other supporting evidence, others have supplied single case studies, so I feel cheated . Teach me, get me some objective data to show me the error of my ways . QuoteHaving the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data OK, so if you are presenting yourself as an expert witness here, then where is your data to support your claim? I respect your intelligence, think you are very articulate, but I just don't see the kind of supporting data that you obviosly had to produce in order to write your thesis and all the myriad of the other research papers. QuoteAlso, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. Absolutely, but all that I see are the qualitative. The problem with that is obviously sample size. QuoteWhen we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. Yea, that's great, but if you tried to argue your thesis based upon that you wouldn't be bragging up your Ma right now. Seriously, you know what I'm talking about as well as other college-educated people. Look at my 2 web sites and let me hear your extrapolation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #163 November 19, 2006 QuoteI question that and dismiss it w/o any supporting data. Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. You are out gunned and looking foolish. QuoteWhat I wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And YOUR source? Also, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" So you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? QuoteI wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #164 November 19, 2006 http://www.dod.gov/...tml/2-education.html http://www.dod.mil/...sions/education.html These right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. Highly educated people like Kallend and Bill Von agreed shared the same position as me that kids in college are “smarter” than kids entering the military. I wrote: Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. The supporting data is above, read it, explain why it doesn’t support my main contention on the first page or any of the many offshoots along the way. Not just, “It doesn’t say anything.” I’ve established several times the many elements that it supports. I think you’re getting caught up with the notion that saying this disparages the troops somehow; not meant that way. QuoteYou are out gunned and looking foolish. From a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. QuoteAnd YOUR source? I used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. I supported it by way of the DOD site I posted that kids 18-24, the military has a 17% college rate and the civilian population has a 47% rate. If you read the graphs you’ll understand that. QuoteAlso, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" From some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Quotient: the numerical ratio usually multiplied by 100 between a test score and a measurement on which that score might be expected largely to depend —see INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Quotient QuoteSo you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? Glad you agree. I can’t understand why you argue, education does = higher test scores. I’ve taken abbreviated IQ’s, never a full-blown test. Again, we can use IQ, LSAT or any other type of test and college-bound kids would score higher then diverge from there. This, "win-lose" thing is innane. Either you have supported your contention(s) or you have impeached theirs, not really win-lose. QuoteAnd her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. SHE DIDN’T PROVIDE A SOURCE, JUST A SET OF FLOWERY WORDS. SHOW ME THE SOURCE. She did leave something in PM I have to get. How can you make claims my source, a DOD source was impeached when no one looks at it? Furthermore, IQ was one of the methods I posted, you could use an SAT too; same type of thing. Impeach the data of my 2 sites or all the previous sites I posted where they claim the standards are lowering and they are now taking in criminals, more serious criminal types. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #165 November 19, 2006 QuoteThese right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. BTW both show "Page not found". I'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. THOSE ARE FOR EDUCATION, NOT INTELLIGENCE!!!!! Education, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. QuoteFrom a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. The more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. QuoteI used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. And that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Bush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. And he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. QuoteFrom some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Yeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #166 November 19, 2006 QuoteBTW both show "Page not found". Nice to see you've been arguing against me when you ignored the sites I posted for days. 2 other posters saw them, maybe they will be back up soon. They displayed graphs that established 17% of military enlistees had some college, whereas 45-47% of civilians 18-24 had some college. Keep checking, I will. QuoteI'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. I'm answering all the questions, just because it's not what you want to hear. QuoteEducation, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? So are people then born with intelligence? I believe that people are born with a genetic component to have X degree of intelligence, but people are not born with intelligence, just the template. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. Agsin, you've done nothing empirical, posted no studies, to data; I have. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. I posted the graph several days ago, ask teh people who have seen it or wait till it comes up. BTW, I stand by my assertion that education plays a role in intelligence, not carbon copy, but a predominate role. QuoteAnd that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Scientifically, there is no such thing as proof, that is for court rooms and churches where injustices are dispensed constantly. I don't prove arguments, I make assertions and support them. If I usethe word, "proof" it is in error or as an abstract. But I have supported the contention that: 1) Education leads to intelligence 2) Kids prone to enlist and who do are less intelligent than thise who go off to college. Do me a favor and at least support your argument against #1. Where do intelligent people come from? What part of their lives makes them more or less intelligent than others? Answer those. QuoteBush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. No, I claim he was a liar for cherry picking the intelligence and proposing it to Congress. RNC Mehlman has said basically that. Find whee I;ve said Bush used any kind of reasoning in regard to the WMD's. QuoteAnd he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. He is believed by most to have fudged the whole argument that there were WMD's there. A great difference between wrong and corrupt. QuoteYeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. IQ means Intelligence Quotient. Please tell me where intelligence comes from and how it is maintained thru the years? A 20YO has a set IQ, but if they fail to further educate themselves they will fall in the IQ ratio as they age. You have a higher IQ when you are as "smart" as people in older age groups. Tell me, how do you do that? Living in a fox hole or sitting in a classroom? I love the arguments about life experience and I do give credence to it, but to be a well-rounded person with conprehensive knowledge a person needs a fair amount of travel, organized education, diverse experience, etc.... To be loaded with "street smarts" is only beneficial if you're pushing hookers or drugs. To be loaded with book smarts will gain you a huge amount of money, but may not be fullfilling for your personal life. The guys/girls who develope PS3 and military devices, do you think they have more book smarts or street smarts? Which is more important and which (book or life experience) leads to greater intelligence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #167 November 19, 2006 http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/intelligence Here's a thesaurus, it defines and gives synonyms for intelligence and IQ. http://www.edwebproject.org/edref.mi.histschl.html This is a good page that really supports the notion that teh SAT test would better determine a persons intelligence than an IQ test; I agree. It would be unique to have data from both, but I'm thinking the SAT would be more useful. The measuring of raw intelligence with tests continued in all areas of education. One of the most famous examples is the Scholastic Aptitude Test, or SAT. The SAT, which analyzes a student's mathematic and gramatical abilities as well as reading comprehension and vocabulary, is used by nearly every college in America to help determine whether a student is qualified to enter that institution. Because it is assumed that the SAT can predict future achievement, certain scores could automatically dictate whether a student was in or out of a prospective program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #168 November 19, 2006 So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #169 November 19, 2006 As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #170 November 19, 2006 QuoteSo you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz QuoteThere probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. Of course there is. IQ testing, especially at a young age might be more inferential toward establishing the propensity or aptitude to learn, whereas IQ testing at 30 and beond is a measure of how you apply that innate aptitude. I think SAT testing would be a FAR better measure of a young person's intellect. QuoteI'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? I'm not just trying to differ here, but I see zero correlation between the two, especially if you're saying the need for duty to country is the exclusive driver for enlisting, hence that person is intelligent. I think duty to country and intelligence are purely coincidental, and there are bright as well as dim folks who feel a strong need to serve their country. I think the drive to serve your country is HEAVILY weighted in honor and ethics, not that people who don't serve are void of these, but I thinks it's fruaght with nobility rather than intelligence. QuoteEducation leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. I agree in part. Innate aptitude--->Education--->knowledge--->intelligence I see this as a normal pathway to go from a young person to an adult that is intelligent. Now if there is an interruption along the way, especially with aptitiude or desire to become intelligent, the end will be met with limited success. QuotePeople's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #171 November 19, 2006 Quote As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students. You go right to HR for some sensitivity training, MR. I agree, with what I've recently read, you're right. But as a general determiner, I think the SAT would be the best barometer for establishing general knowledge, general intelligence. QuoteFor students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. Sure, right-brainers like me . QuoteThis is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. According to all the stuff I read lately in regard to ASVAB, SAT and other tests, black males don't do well. At the same time, look at pro sports. Maybe Jimmy the Greek had a point, or at least the data supports his wild assertion to a degree. Rush Limbaugh's assertion was pathetic, as McNabb went on to win like 11 of the next 12 games after he uttered his idiocy. Generalizations don't work on the individual, just the whole. But the problem with generalizations is that the individuals that don’t fall under the generalizations could get lost in that data and discriminated. I read in the U of M case recently that stated blacks comprised 1% of the 165 LSAT / 3.80 GPA, yet comprised 11% of the school's law school enrollment. Since there are 13% African Americans in the US, apparently AA adjusted for the lack of qualifying scores, or that was the contention of the plaintiffs. Also diet/nutrition has a lot to do with intelligence. Gender was mentioned too. ____________________________________ Ultimately the SAT would likely suffice to determine general intelligence, but it hasn't been done to my knowledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #172 November 20, 2006 What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #173 November 20, 2006 Ding ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #174 November 20, 2006 QuoteDing ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!! Oh, golly gee, let me ride your coattail of that non-victory. Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #175 November 20, 2006 QuoteWhat? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc... Intelligence has be earned by way of learning, the potential probably has a healthy inherent component. What's with the kick of open-mindedness? Let's talk enlistee's intel vs college kids intel. Do you have a cite that claims intel won't be disturbed either way by education or lack of? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 7 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Lucky... 0 #153 November 18, 2006 QuoteHer experience is not unique in the current Army. I take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. The argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Education does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. Why can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined? QuoteI take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. Then how do you test intelligence? Life experience? How much life experience can an 18YO have? QuoteThe argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Those prone to educate and be excited about that genre tend to go to school after high school. Those who regard education as meaningless tend to go into the trades, military or other things. QuoteEducation does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. As an average it does. There are people who will self-educate, but generally, as an average, education leads to higher intellect, higher IQ, etc. QuoteWhy can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined? Why can't you read? I did write that, do I need to go back and show you? But the military guys of today are less intelligent than the college kids of today. Same proportion existed back then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #154 November 18, 2006 >Why can't you read? Your last warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #155 November 18, 2006 QuoteOK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? ASVAB? GPA? Income? Job Title and position? Those are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness. QuoteOK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? Yes ASVAB? Yes, somewhat. GPA? Sure, but this can be skewed. Income? No way. Job Title and position? No way. QuoteThose are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness. The SAT and ASVAB and GPA are not material, they're intellectual. QuoteSuccess True intellect Life Hapiness Success Many people are successful w/o education, but there is a very definite correlation between education and vocational success. True intellect As opposed to false intellect? True intellect infers to me a true, definite measure of intellectuality, so this would relegate education to be of utmost importance. Life Education has nothing to with life? Uh, ok. WHat seperates us from 3rd world countries? Education, knowledge. Hapiness That's subjective, some are dumb-n-happy, ignorance is bliss, others aren't happy unless they have the keys to the universe. Don't speak for otehrs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #156 November 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteBUT, the college kids are more intellectual. Quote I think this is simply an opinion. I have met many intellectual people in my life who had little or no education. Likewise, i have met many who are well educated who are not very intellectual. Education in itself does not quantify intellect. As a young enlisted soldier, I met many intellectual, but uneducated soldiers. They are different things. Isn't 3.80+ Suma Cum Loudly? It is here, Magna is 3.60-3.79. My mistake. I guess I was Summa....doesn't really matter in light of this post Guess I am not "intellectual" for not remembering which honors I received. QuoteI bet if you IQ tested with your friends at 2 years in the service/college you would have been smoked. Now you would smoke themQuote Here is where your logic is completely off. You are trying to argue using IQ and education the same. Quoted from How Stuff Works (because it represents what I am trying to say in a more concise manner) "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge. Learning new information does not automatically increase your IQ. Education does not automatically increase your IQ either. adult IQ scores don't significantly increase over time. There is evidence that maintaining an intellectually stimulating atmosphere (by learning new skills or solving puzzles, for example) boosts some cognitive ability, similar to the way maintaining an exercise regimen boosts physical ability, but these changes aren't permanent and do not have much effect on IQ scores. So your IQ score is relatively stable, no matter what education you acquire. This does not mean that you can't increase your intelligence. IQ tests are only one imperfect method of measuring certain aspects of intellectual ability. A lot of critics point out that IQ tests don't measure creativity, social skills, wisdom, acquired abilities or a host of other things we consider to be aspects of intelligence" (my emphasis in bold) And I agree with matthewcline. i don't think I am an anomoly, exceptional, or unique in my experience. I have found similar experiences in other people who had military service. QuoteI think this is simply an opinion. I have met many intellectual people in my life who had little or no education. Likewise, i have met many who are well educated who are not very intellectual. Education in itself does not quantify intellect. As a young enlisted soldier, I met many intellectual, but uneducated soldiers. They are different things. Let's talk Einstein, he came off as an idiot, so it is written, yet he was a genius. Many brilliant people can't relate in society, whereas many idiots like car salesmen, realtors, etc come off as intelligent and engaging, yet aren't intellectual at all. Intelligence i=needs to be tested to be measured. QuoteMy mistake. I guess I was Summa....doesn't really matter in light of this post Guess I am not "intellectual" for not remembering which honors I received. No it doesn't matter, I'm not posing and Ad Hominem, but if I graduated Cum Loudly I would have known. I'm a details guy. QuoteHere is where your logic is completely off. You are trying to argue using IQ and education the same. "are the same." I would say that they aren't carbon copies, but there is a correlation. 1) I'm talking average, not individuals. 2) There is a correlation between education and IQ, SAT, etc.. QuoteQuoted from How Stuff Works (because it represents what I am trying to say in a more concise manner) What is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. QuoteAnd I agree with matthewcline. i don't think I am an anomoly, exceptional, or unique in my experience. I have found similar experiences in other people who had military service. You are for 3 reasons: 1) You have a grad degree 2) You graduated Suma Cum Loudly 3) You were one of the 6.9% of Army people who were attending college at about the time you were likely in. http://www.dod.gov/prhome/poprep98/html/2-education.html Impeach that. Imperically explain how as of 2004 10% of Army enlistees attend college and 47% of civilians have colege. Leave the artsy-farsty, "let's give GI's a break" behind and explain that for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #157 November 18, 2006 The statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #158 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University. QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. Do you think the DOD is AFU? I don't see them as biased, and if they are they would be for the troops. I just don't see them as anything but a repository of information. So maybe you should impeach the DOD website as inaccurate, I'm just posting a very objective government data site. Again, we keep talking averages here, not you and your buddies, the platoon down the way, etc... Perhaps you guys are exceptional too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #159 November 18, 2006 The sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #160 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings! Well, as with most studies, methodology is key. So perhaps investigate their method for collecting data, but until then I think the burden shifts to your side to overthrow the factuality of the data. Don't get me wrong, I fully respect the sacrifice given, I just think that young people entering the service are less intellectual than their counterparts who attend college, but I know of many who get out and become very intelligent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jshatzkin 0 #161 November 18, 2006 QuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #162 November 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. QuoteThe truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. Uh, well, I wouldn't say that's true all of the time, but sometimes it is. Let's not get tangented. I posted the data for educational comparisons in 1998 and in 2004 from the DOD, this is not skewed data and I believe probably fairly accurate. But my argument is the only one that provided data and other sources of reference, so it is the standing argument. QuoteA good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. I agree, I've posted all kinds of data and other supporting evidence, others have supplied single case studies, so I feel cheated . Teach me, get me some objective data to show me the error of my ways . QuoteHaving the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data OK, so if you are presenting yourself as an expert witness here, then where is your data to support your claim? I respect your intelligence, think you are very articulate, but I just don't see the kind of supporting data that you obviosly had to produce in order to write your thesis and all the myriad of the other research papers. QuoteAlso, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. Absolutely, but all that I see are the qualitative. The problem with that is obviously sample size. QuoteWhen we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. Yea, that's great, but if you tried to argue your thesis based upon that you wouldn't be bragging up your Ma right now. Seriously, you know what I'm talking about as well as other college-educated people. Look at my 2 web sites and let me hear your extrapolation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #163 November 19, 2006 QuoteI question that and dismiss it w/o any supporting data. Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. You are out gunned and looking foolish. QuoteWhat I wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And YOUR source? Also, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" So you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? QuoteI wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #164 November 19, 2006 http://www.dod.gov/...tml/2-education.html http://www.dod.mil/...sions/education.html These right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. Highly educated people like Kallend and Bill Von agreed shared the same position as me that kids in college are “smarter” than kids entering the military. I wrote: Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. The supporting data is above, read it, explain why it doesn’t support my main contention on the first page or any of the many offshoots along the way. Not just, “It doesn’t say anything.” I’ve established several times the many elements that it supports. I think you’re getting caught up with the notion that saying this disparages the troops somehow; not meant that way. QuoteYou are out gunned and looking foolish. From a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. QuoteAnd YOUR source? I used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. I supported it by way of the DOD site I posted that kids 18-24, the military has a 17% college rate and the civilian population has a 47% rate. If you read the graphs you’ll understand that. QuoteAlso, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" From some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Quotient: the numerical ratio usually multiplied by 100 between a test score and a measurement on which that score might be expected largely to depend —see INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Quotient QuoteSo you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? Glad you agree. I can’t understand why you argue, education does = higher test scores. I’ve taken abbreviated IQ’s, never a full-blown test. Again, we can use IQ, LSAT or any other type of test and college-bound kids would score higher then diverge from there. This, "win-lose" thing is innane. Either you have supported your contention(s) or you have impeached theirs, not really win-lose. QuoteAnd her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. SHE DIDN’T PROVIDE A SOURCE, JUST A SET OF FLOWERY WORDS. SHOW ME THE SOURCE. She did leave something in PM I have to get. How can you make claims my source, a DOD source was impeached when no one looks at it? Furthermore, IQ was one of the methods I posted, you could use an SAT too; same type of thing. Impeach the data of my 2 sites or all the previous sites I posted where they claim the standards are lowering and they are now taking in criminals, more serious criminal types. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #165 November 19, 2006 QuoteThese right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. BTW both show "Page not found". I'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. THOSE ARE FOR EDUCATION, NOT INTELLIGENCE!!!!! Education, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. QuoteFrom a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. The more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. QuoteI used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. And that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Bush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. And he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. QuoteFrom some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Yeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #166 November 19, 2006 QuoteBTW both show "Page not found". Nice to see you've been arguing against me when you ignored the sites I posted for days. 2 other posters saw them, maybe they will be back up soon. They displayed graphs that established 17% of military enlistees had some college, whereas 45-47% of civilians 18-24 had some college. Keep checking, I will. QuoteI'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. I'm answering all the questions, just because it's not what you want to hear. QuoteEducation, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? So are people then born with intelligence? I believe that people are born with a genetic component to have X degree of intelligence, but people are not born with intelligence, just the template. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. Agsin, you've done nothing empirical, posted no studies, to data; I have. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. I posted the graph several days ago, ask teh people who have seen it or wait till it comes up. BTW, I stand by my assertion that education plays a role in intelligence, not carbon copy, but a predominate role. QuoteAnd that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Scientifically, there is no such thing as proof, that is for court rooms and churches where injustices are dispensed constantly. I don't prove arguments, I make assertions and support them. If I usethe word, "proof" it is in error or as an abstract. But I have supported the contention that: 1) Education leads to intelligence 2) Kids prone to enlist and who do are less intelligent than thise who go off to college. Do me a favor and at least support your argument against #1. Where do intelligent people come from? What part of their lives makes them more or less intelligent than others? Answer those. QuoteBush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. No, I claim he was a liar for cherry picking the intelligence and proposing it to Congress. RNC Mehlman has said basically that. Find whee I;ve said Bush used any kind of reasoning in regard to the WMD's. QuoteAnd he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. He is believed by most to have fudged the whole argument that there were WMD's there. A great difference between wrong and corrupt. QuoteYeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. IQ means Intelligence Quotient. Please tell me where intelligence comes from and how it is maintained thru the years? A 20YO has a set IQ, but if they fail to further educate themselves they will fall in the IQ ratio as they age. You have a higher IQ when you are as "smart" as people in older age groups. Tell me, how do you do that? Living in a fox hole or sitting in a classroom? I love the arguments about life experience and I do give credence to it, but to be a well-rounded person with conprehensive knowledge a person needs a fair amount of travel, organized education, diverse experience, etc.... To be loaded with "street smarts" is only beneficial if you're pushing hookers or drugs. To be loaded with book smarts will gain you a huge amount of money, but may not be fullfilling for your personal life. The guys/girls who develope PS3 and military devices, do you think they have more book smarts or street smarts? Which is more important and which (book or life experience) leads to greater intelligence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #167 November 19, 2006 http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/intelligence Here's a thesaurus, it defines and gives synonyms for intelligence and IQ. http://www.edwebproject.org/edref.mi.histschl.html This is a good page that really supports the notion that teh SAT test would better determine a persons intelligence than an IQ test; I agree. It would be unique to have data from both, but I'm thinking the SAT would be more useful. The measuring of raw intelligence with tests continued in all areas of education. One of the most famous examples is the Scholastic Aptitude Test, or SAT. The SAT, which analyzes a student's mathematic and gramatical abilities as well as reading comprehension and vocabulary, is used by nearly every college in America to help determine whether a student is qualified to enter that institution. Because it is assumed that the SAT can predict future achievement, certain scores could automatically dictate whether a student was in or out of a prospective program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #168 November 19, 2006 So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #169 November 19, 2006 As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #170 November 19, 2006 QuoteSo you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz QuoteThere probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. Of course there is. IQ testing, especially at a young age might be more inferential toward establishing the propensity or aptitude to learn, whereas IQ testing at 30 and beond is a measure of how you apply that innate aptitude. I think SAT testing would be a FAR better measure of a young person's intellect. QuoteI'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? I'm not just trying to differ here, but I see zero correlation between the two, especially if you're saying the need for duty to country is the exclusive driver for enlisting, hence that person is intelligent. I think duty to country and intelligence are purely coincidental, and there are bright as well as dim folks who feel a strong need to serve their country. I think the drive to serve your country is HEAVILY weighted in honor and ethics, not that people who don't serve are void of these, but I thinks it's fruaght with nobility rather than intelligence. QuoteEducation leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. I agree in part. Innate aptitude--->Education--->knowledge--->intelligence I see this as a normal pathway to go from a young person to an adult that is intelligent. Now if there is an interruption along the way, especially with aptitiude or desire to become intelligent, the end will be met with limited success. QuotePeople's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #171 November 19, 2006 Quote As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students. You go right to HR for some sensitivity training, MR. I agree, with what I've recently read, you're right. But as a general determiner, I think the SAT would be the best barometer for establishing general knowledge, general intelligence. QuoteFor students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. Sure, right-brainers like me . QuoteThis is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. According to all the stuff I read lately in regard to ASVAB, SAT and other tests, black males don't do well. At the same time, look at pro sports. Maybe Jimmy the Greek had a point, or at least the data supports his wild assertion to a degree. Rush Limbaugh's assertion was pathetic, as McNabb went on to win like 11 of the next 12 games after he uttered his idiocy. Generalizations don't work on the individual, just the whole. But the problem with generalizations is that the individuals that don’t fall under the generalizations could get lost in that data and discriminated. I read in the U of M case recently that stated blacks comprised 1% of the 165 LSAT / 3.80 GPA, yet comprised 11% of the school's law school enrollment. Since there are 13% African Americans in the US, apparently AA adjusted for the lack of qualifying scores, or that was the contention of the plaintiffs. Also diet/nutrition has a lot to do with intelligence. Gender was mentioned too. ____________________________________ Ultimately the SAT would likely suffice to determine general intelligence, but it hasn't been done to my knowledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #172 November 20, 2006 What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #173 November 20, 2006 Ding ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #174 November 20, 2006 QuoteDing ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!! Oh, golly gee, let me ride your coattail of that non-victory. Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #175 November 20, 2006 QuoteWhat? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc... Intelligence has be earned by way of learning, the potential probably has a healthy inherent component. What's with the kick of open-mindedness? Let's talk enlistee's intel vs college kids intel. Do you have a cite that claims intel won't be disturbed either way by education or lack of? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 7 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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matthewcline 0 #157 November 18, 2006 The statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #158 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. I also now many, who have degrees, who have not posted them to their Army records yet (again I am one of them), call them naive if you want but they are trying to work up the ranks on their job performance not a piece of paper from a University. QuoteThe statistic you quote I know is a bit off. I am one of many Soldiers (I personally now 6 out of my unit) who take classes with out any Army or DOD assistance and there for not part of that statistic. Do you think the DOD is AFU? I don't see them as biased, and if they are they would be for the troops. I just don't see them as anything but a repository of information. So maybe you should impeach the DOD website as inaccurate, I'm just posting a very objective government data site. Again, we keep talking averages here, not you and your buddies, the platoon down the way, etc... Perhaps you guys are exceptional too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #159 November 18, 2006 The sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #160 November 18, 2006 QuoteThe sight is accurate with the information it has. I am stating they don't have ALL the statistics. Some of us have kept our EDUCATION to our selves. We have done this so we can be promoted on our work productivity and not our educational past. Shit! I owe beer, first time spell checker said I had no misspellings! Well, as with most studies, methodology is key. So perhaps investigate their method for collecting data, but until then I think the burden shifts to your side to overthrow the factuality of the data. Don't get me wrong, I fully respect the sacrifice given, I just think that young people entering the service are less intellectual than their counterparts who attend college, but I know of many who get out and become very intelligent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #161 November 18, 2006 QuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #162 November 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat is that source? The first time you cited some data that you had no reference for, now you cite some, "How Stuff Works." Is that a website, book or your opinion???? You have GOT to be joking me. If you have a masters, didn't you have a citation page? Jesus. I find this so entertaining. I am not trying to have a 20 page argument. This reminds me of a funny link in the Bonfire awhile back that classified typical forum posters. There was the one who only wanted to argue their side,...posting a myriad of "resources", data and links. The truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. A good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. Having the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data Also, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. When we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. QuoteThe truth is, no matter what side you are on or the argument, you can find "data" to support you. It does not make your claim the only valid one. Uh, well, I wouldn't say that's true all of the time, but sometimes it is. Let's not get tangented. I posted the data for educational comparisons in 1998 and in 2004 from the DOD, this is not skewed data and I believe probably fairly accurate. But my argument is the only one that provided data and other sources of reference, so it is the standing argument. QuoteA good argument means that we can all take something new from the debate and enhance our learning of that topic. I agree, I've posted all kinds of data and other supporting evidence, others have supplied single case studies, so I feel cheated . Teach me, get me some objective data to show me the error of my ways . QuoteHaving the social and psychological sciences as part of my education, the quote from that website sums up many many scholarly articles and resources regarding intelligence. One thing is certain,..in the field of psychology..it is well known that education and IQ should not be construed as the same. Look it up anywhere. Look in any psychology 101 textbook. I was simply summarzing 180 college credits worth of research and data OK, so if you are presenting yourself as an expert witness here, then where is your data to support your claim? I respect your intelligence, think you are very articulate, but I just don't see the kind of supporting data that you obviosly had to produce in order to write your thesis and all the myriad of the other research papers. QuoteAlso, when determining trends in the social atmosphere, 2 methodologies are used in good, solid research. Quantitative: your numbers and statistics (which can be collected and bent toward your hypothisis-any statistics 101 course will teach that) And Qualitative: which is gathering indiviual "stories", such as mine, and determining commonalities. Absolutely, but all that I see are the qualitative. The problem with that is obviously sample size. QuoteWhen we use the term "smart", I think it can apply to anyone. I believe everyone is "smart" in something and contributes to the greater society with their uniqueness. If we were all smart only in one area, we would not grow as a society. like I said before, I have met many smart people. Some educated and some not. Each person who comes into my life has a unique smart ability and I can learn from them. One person may be smart in mathmatics, and another in computers and another in language. We all have our individual "smartness" to contribute. We all are doing that now in this debate. Yea, that's great, but if you tried to argue your thesis based upon that you wouldn't be bragging up your Ma right now. Seriously, you know what I'm talking about as well as other college-educated people. Look at my 2 web sites and let me hear your extrapolation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #163 November 19, 2006 QuoteI question that and dismiss it w/o any supporting data. Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. You are out gunned and looking foolish. QuoteWhat I wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And YOUR source? Also, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" So you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? QuoteI wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher And her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #164 November 19, 2006 http://www.dod.gov/...tml/2-education.html http://www.dod.mil/...sions/education.html These right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. Highly educated people like Kallend and Bill Von agreed shared the same position as me that kids in college are “smarter” than kids entering the military. I wrote: Then most of your "info" should be dismissed as well. You make tons of claims, but have not backed them up. You then claim that it is your "opinion" and you don't need to back up opinions. The supporting data is above, read it, explain why it doesn’t support my main contention on the first page or any of the many offshoots along the way. Not just, “It doesn’t say anything.” I’ve established several times the many elements that it supports. I think you’re getting caught up with the notion that saying this disparages the troops somehow; not meant that way. QuoteYou are out gunned and looking foolish. From a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. QuoteAnd YOUR source? I used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. I supported it by way of the DOD site I posted that kids 18-24, the military has a 17% college rate and the civilian population has a 47% rate. If you read the graphs you’ll understand that. QuoteAlso, the cite she used stated that IQ is "IQ tests measure your ability to understand ideas and not the quantity of your knowledge" From some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Quotient: the numerical ratio usually multiplied by 100 between a test score and a measurement on which that score might be expected largely to depend —see INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Quotient QuoteSo you lose that as well. You want to claim that college kids have more *education* well DUH! But you have claimed they are smarter and would do better on an IQ test. Ever taken an IQ test? Glad you agree. I can’t understand why you argue, education does = higher test scores. I’ve taken abbreviated IQ’s, never a full-blown test. Again, we can use IQ, LSAT or any other type of test and college-bound kids would score higher then diverge from there. This, "win-lose" thing is innane. Either you have supported your contention(s) or you have impeached theirs, not really win-lose. QuoteAnd her source says you are wrong. IQ does not measure education, it measures ability. SHE DIDN’T PROVIDE A SOURCE, JUST A SET OF FLOWERY WORDS. SHOW ME THE SOURCE. She did leave something in PM I have to get. How can you make claims my source, a DOD source was impeached when no one looks at it? Furthermore, IQ was one of the methods I posted, you could use an SAT too; same type of thing. Impeach the data of my 2 sites or all the previous sites I posted where they claim the standards are lowering and they are now taking in criminals, more serious criminal types. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #165 November 19, 2006 QuoteThese right here, only 1 person has even commented on these, and the was in PM. Does that mean either only 1 person has looked at them or the rest decided that they couldn’t impeach them. BTW both show "Page not found". I'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. THOSE ARE FOR EDUCATION, NOT INTELLIGENCE!!!!! Education, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. QuoteFrom a person who won’t do anything empirical? Ouch… not. The more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. QuoteI used deductive reasoning to establish that IQ scores would be higher amongst college kids over military enlistees. And that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Bush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. And he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. QuoteFrom some artsy site, I guess, it was never posted. Look up the dictionary definition, it varies a bit from that. Intelligent Quotient; quotient means ratio. Altho I agree that the IQ isn’t the end of all means to determine intelligence, and it is flawed, it is a general way to measure overall knowledge within your age group. Yeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #166 November 19, 2006 QuoteBTW both show "Page not found". Nice to see you've been arguing against me when you ignored the sites I posted for days. 2 other posters saw them, maybe they will be back up soon. They displayed graphs that established 17% of military enlistees had some college, whereas 45-47% of civilians 18-24 had some college. Keep checking, I will. QuoteI'll try this once more...It is clear you would rather dodge than answer. I'm answering all the questions, just because it's not what you want to hear. QuoteEducation, YES most people in school will have more DUH! But you said intelligence and that is nowhere close to the same. To the point you claimed to be smarter than people who are in the service. So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? So are people then born with intelligence? I believe that people are born with a genetic component to have X degree of intelligence, but people are not born with intelligence, just the template. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. Agsin, you've done nothing empirical, posted no studies, to data; I have. QuoteThe more you make claims that are not proven, Yes. You debate with nothing more than personal opinion and confuse education with intelligence. I posted the graph several days ago, ask teh people who have seen it or wait till it comes up. BTW, I stand by my assertion that education plays a role in intelligence, not carbon copy, but a predominate role. QuoteAnd that is not proof no matter how much you make wishes and click your heals together. Scientifically, there is no such thing as proof, that is for court rooms and churches where injustices are dispensed constantly. I don't prove arguments, I make assertions and support them. If I usethe word, "proof" it is in error or as an abstract. But I have supported the contention that: 1) Education leads to intelligence 2) Kids prone to enlist and who do are less intelligent than thise who go off to college. Do me a favor and at least support your argument against #1. Where do intelligent people come from? What part of their lives makes them more or less intelligent than others? Answer those. QuoteBush, and others, used deductive reasoning to "know" there were WMD's in Iraq. But you claim he was an idiot for doing that. No, I claim he was a liar for cherry picking the intelligence and proposing it to Congress. RNC Mehlman has said basically that. Find whee I;ve said Bush used any kind of reasoning in regard to the WMD's. QuoteAnd he was found wrong. See how your thought process can be quite wrong? Just because you think it does not make it true. He is believed by most to have fudged the whole argument that there were WMD's there. A great difference between wrong and corrupt. QuoteYeah, notice it says nothing about EDUCATION which is the keystone to your illogical argument. IQ means Intelligence Quotient. Please tell me where intelligence comes from and how it is maintained thru the years? A 20YO has a set IQ, but if they fail to further educate themselves they will fall in the IQ ratio as they age. You have a higher IQ when you are as "smart" as people in older age groups. Tell me, how do you do that? Living in a fox hole or sitting in a classroom? I love the arguments about life experience and I do give credence to it, but to be a well-rounded person with conprehensive knowledge a person needs a fair amount of travel, organized education, diverse experience, etc.... To be loaded with "street smarts" is only beneficial if you're pushing hookers or drugs. To be loaded with book smarts will gain you a huge amount of money, but may not be fullfilling for your personal life. The guys/girls who develope PS3 and military devices, do you think they have more book smarts or street smarts? Which is more important and which (book or life experience) leads to greater intelligence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #167 November 19, 2006 http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/intelligence Here's a thesaurus, it defines and gives synonyms for intelligence and IQ. http://www.edwebproject.org/edref.mi.histschl.html This is a good page that really supports the notion that teh SAT test would better determine a persons intelligence than an IQ test; I agree. It would be unique to have data from both, but I'm thinking the SAT would be more useful. The measuring of raw intelligence with tests continued in all areas of education. One of the most famous examples is the Scholastic Aptitude Test, or SAT. The SAT, which analyzes a student's mathematic and gramatical abilities as well as reading comprehension and vocabulary, is used by nearly every college in America to help determine whether a student is qualified to enter that institution. Because it is assumed that the SAT can predict future achievement, certain scores could automatically dictate whether a student was in or out of a prospective program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #168 November 19, 2006 So you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #169 November 19, 2006 As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #170 November 19, 2006 QuoteSo you say no correlation between education and intelligence? There probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. I'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? Education leads to intelligence Education leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. People's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. linz QuoteThere probably is a correlation between education and intelligence. Of course there is. IQ testing, especially at a young age might be more inferential toward establishing the propensity or aptitude to learn, whereas IQ testing at 30 and beond is a measure of how you apply that innate aptitude. I think SAT testing would be a FAR better measure of a young person's intellect. QuoteI'd bet there's also a correlation between recognizing ones duty to his country and intelligence too. Where would that leave us? I'm not just trying to differ here, but I see zero correlation between the two, especially if you're saying the need for duty to country is the exclusive driver for enlisting, hence that person is intelligent. I think duty to country and intelligence are purely coincidental, and there are bright as well as dim folks who feel a strong need to serve their country. I think the drive to serve your country is HEAVILY weighted in honor and ethics, not that people who don't serve are void of these, but I thinks it's fruaght with nobility rather than intelligence. QuoteEducation leads to knowledge, not to intelligence. I agree in part. Innate aptitude--->Education--->knowledge--->intelligence I see this as a normal pathway to go from a young person to an adult that is intelligent. Now if there is an interruption along the way, especially with aptitiude or desire to become intelligent, the end will be met with limited success. QuotePeople's intelligence doesn't change much through life, despite education or lack thereof. What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #171 November 19, 2006 Quote As it happensd I have done a lot of research on the factors that indicate student success at our university. It depends on a number of factors, including the program, ethnicity, gender and how good the SAT scores are. For technical programs (engineering, science) the Math score is the best indicator for students with a composite over approx 1200, for all races and both genders For Architecture, the SAT score predicts nothing, but being female is a better indicator of success than being male. For students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. This is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. For African Americans, being female is a better indicator of success than being male for all levels of SAT score and all programs, but its especially true for the lower scoring students. You go right to HR for some sensitivity training, MR. I agree, with what I've recently read, you're right. But as a general determiner, I think the SAT would be the best barometer for establishing general knowledge, general intelligence. QuoteFor students with low composite scores (<1200), the English score is a better predictor of success than the math score even for technical disciplines. Sure, right-brainers like me . QuoteThis is especially true for black males. I reckon this is due to poor reading comprehension becoming an issue that affects all majors. According to all the stuff I read lately in regard to ASVAB, SAT and other tests, black males don't do well. At the same time, look at pro sports. Maybe Jimmy the Greek had a point, or at least the data supports his wild assertion to a degree. Rush Limbaugh's assertion was pathetic, as McNabb went on to win like 11 of the next 12 games after he uttered his idiocy. Generalizations don't work on the individual, just the whole. But the problem with generalizations is that the individuals that don’t fall under the generalizations could get lost in that data and discriminated. I read in the U of M case recently that stated blacks comprised 1% of the 165 LSAT / 3.80 GPA, yet comprised 11% of the school's law school enrollment. Since there are 13% African Americans in the US, apparently AA adjusted for the lack of qualifying scores, or that was the contention of the plaintiffs. Also diet/nutrition has a lot to do with intelligence. Gender was mentioned too. ____________________________________ Ultimately the SAT would likely suffice to determine general intelligence, but it hasn't been done to my knowledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #172 November 20, 2006 What? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #173 November 20, 2006 Ding ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #174 November 20, 2006 QuoteDing ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!! Oh, golly gee, let me ride your coattail of that non-victory. Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #175 November 20, 2006 QuoteWhat? So if a person has great aptitude to learn and digs ditches they will be as intelligent as a person who has limited aptiitude and schools him/herself? I think you're transposing intelligence with potential. Nope. I'm not transposing anything. It's pretty well accepted among the testers of intelligence that intelligence is independent of education. It's stable throughout a person's lifetime except in extraordinary circumstances--i.e. traumatic brain injury and things like that. Damn....you're not sounding very open-minded here. Or is this one of those cases of "where it fits your world view?" linz Point not made, intelligence potential may be somewhat fixed, but if a peson has great potential and does nothing with it, they won't test well on IQ tests, SAT's, etc... Intelligence has be earned by way of learning, the potential probably has a healthy inherent component. What's with the kick of open-mindedness? Let's talk enlistee's intel vs college kids intel. Do you have a cite that claims intel won't be disturbed either way by education or lack of? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
