GQ_jumper 4 #1 November 10, 2006 The thread about the Marine who will be posthumously awarded the MOH reminded me of a story I recently read in the Army Times. I just didn't want to take anything away from that thread so I started a new one. A National Guard soldier who was killed after throwing himself on top of a grenade was NOT awarded the MOH a few months ago. In fact his chain of command didn't even put him in for it. Instead they opted to put him in for a silver star with "V" device, which is the third highest medal awarded in the Army. The soldier was on the turret of a humvee when a grenade was thrown in the vehicle. Everyone else jumped out of the vehicle while this soldier dropped down and pulled the grenade into his stomach to absord the blast and protect his team mates. The reason for not being put in for a MOH, according to his company commander was that he didn't feel that such a small unit(it was a deployed company sized element) wasn't big enough to put someone in for such a medal. Looking back at the day my team read this article all my co-workers were furious about this incident. That soldier is deserving of nothing less than the MOH, and his company commander is a POS for not putting him in for one. There are no guidelines as to the size of unit that can put someone in for this medal, it is for heroism, not heroism from someone in a division sized element. This pisses me off.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #2 November 11, 2006 More officers that act like wanna be politicians. The should be ashamed of themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #3 November 11, 2006 QuoteMore officers that act like wanna be politicians. I always thought that a disproportionate amount of medals were handed out to officers...... for the accomplishments of those under them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SWATcop 0 #4 November 11, 2006 QuoteThe reason for not being put in for a MOH, according to his company commander was that he didn't feel that such a small unit(it was a deployed company sized element) wasn't big enough to put someone in for such a medal. That is piss poor. Jumping on a grenade to save others should be an automatic CMH.Kevin Muff Brother #4041 Team Dirty Sanchez #467 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CDRINF 1 #5 November 11, 2006 Being one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). The one MOH citation for grenade jumping that I really thought showed some nuts was an SF NCO in Vietnam who caught a VC headed into the CP with a live grenade, wrestled him to the ground and bear hugged him so the blast was smothered between both of them. CDR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #6 November 11, 2006 I have never heard anyone "romanticize" jumping on a frag, but actions such as this are commonly looked upon as brave. I didn't give exact details of the account but from the reports I saw it wasn't like you said, where everyone had plenty of time to run, obviously someone was close enough to see the soldier intentionally cover the grenade with his body, also it was stated that he first tried to grab it and throw it out of the vehicle. Think about it though, you throw a grenade, about one second in the air, it lands in the vehicle and bounces around, another half second to a second. the times it takes the vehicle to stop(I seem to remember reading that the vehicle WAS moving) well over one second. So the people in the vehicle were getting out within fractions of a second of the renade going off. The soldier had the choice to run with his teammates but they were still close enough to get injured or worse so he opted to give his life to spare theirs. You are not accepting certain death to avoid the possibility of dying, you are ensuring your friends will return home alive. It's like charging an ambush line to draw fire away from a wounded teammate, or a Secret Service agent taking a round for the President. By all means teach the soldiers you are responsible for to react by throwing it back or seeking cover, but telling them not to put their teammates lives ahead of their own is the absolute wrong answer. Also when a grenade lands next to you there is no knowing if it was cooked off or not, last I check they don't have visible timers, so it's an instantaneous decision, myself, my fellow soldiers. Also, you're absolutely right about that SF NCO in your story, nothing but balls. But who are you to say that it is any more brave than anyone else who jumped on a frag to save their team mate. They are all hero's in every sense of the word, no more no less.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,506 #7 November 11, 2006 QuoteYou have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Huh?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #8 November 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Huh? I think he forgot to put "between" in front of the 3... of course, that assumes it's a dropped grenade, since throwing it could take a couple of that 3-5 seconds...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #9 November 11, 2006 I think he forgot to put "between" in front of the 3... of course, that assumes it's a dropped grenade, since throwing it could take a couple of that 3-5 seconds... Quote And don't forget as I mentioned earlier that there is the chance it was cooked off. I never toss a grenade without cooking it off first, eliminates the chance of it being thrown back.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #10 November 14, 2006 QuoteBeing one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). The one MOH citation for grenade jumping that I really thought showed some nuts was an SF NCO in Vietnam who caught a VC headed into the CP with a live grenade, wrestled him to the ground and bear hugged him so the blast was smothered between both of them. CDR Thanks for this post, I was begining to wonder...When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #11 November 14, 2006 QuoteBeing one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). CDR It's been a while since I've thrown a grenade, but I doubt if you have five seconds to respond to a grenade in your midst. If I remember right there is about five seconds (on American Grenades) for the powder train to burn down before the main explosive goes off, (after the handle is released). I don't really know how long a foreign grenade has before it will go off. Probably around the same number of seconds. If one is experienced with throwing grenades, it might be smart to wait a second or two before throwing it. That way there would be less chance of it being thrown back at you. Also less chance that the enemy will run away before it goes off. It might also to be smart to try throwing it back. But maybe there isn't time for that. There may not be time to get everyone out of your foxhole or tank or whatever. Maybe the grenade has already rolled around for a couple seconds while everyone is scrambling to get out, and you know it's going to go off in the next second. I think it would take real balls to jump on a grenade to save your pals, in a situation like that. Many soldiers have died jumping on grenades to save their friends...several during the Vietnam War. I don't know if they all got Medals of Honor, but I think they should have. To say that jumping on a grenade is always wrong or stupid, is really a discredit to those who have given up their lives doing just that. By all means train people to throw them back or jump to one side and lay prone. But if you are caught in a situation where there isn't time for that, what are you going to do? I doubt if I'd ever have balls enough to jump on a live grenade, but I look up to those who had courage enough to do such a thing. And I think Amazon is right when it comes time to hand out medals. Officers seem to have gotten more than their share. It was often the bravery of NCO's or enlisted men who got the job done, while an officer took credit....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #12 November 14, 2006 QuoteI always thought that a disproportionate amount of medals were handed out to officers...... for the accomplishments of those under them. All officer promotions are directly attributable to the achievements of those whom he/she leads. Commissioning was the last promotion they earned themselves. I had one medal - an ARCOM, that I didn't get just for being in the Army. My troops received many more. What I did have were top notch OERs, which worked for me. Shit, I didn't even do airborne or air assault, thought I could have. Screw being a five-jump chump. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #13 November 14, 2006 I was talking more in line with the higher medals... just look at a list of Silver Stars....Bronze....DFC's etc. In the military medals = points for promotion for the most part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #14 November 14, 2006 Sadly, there are more posthumous medals for enlisted than officers. Shit flows downhill in the military, and if there isn't an officer somewhere in the way of it, the enlisted will bear the brunt. As you may be able to tell, my general opinion of the Army officer corps is not too high. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #15 November 14, 2006 Hell I had fun with the Army... all three weeks of it.. but at least they let me fall out of planes after putting up with their crap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Skyrad 0 #10 November 14, 2006 QuoteBeing one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). The one MOH citation for grenade jumping that I really thought showed some nuts was an SF NCO in Vietnam who caught a VC headed into the CP with a live grenade, wrestled him to the ground and bear hugged him so the blast was smothered between both of them. CDR Thanks for this post, I was begining to wonder...When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #11 November 14, 2006 QuoteBeing one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). CDR It's been a while since I've thrown a grenade, but I doubt if you have five seconds to respond to a grenade in your midst. If I remember right there is about five seconds (on American Grenades) for the powder train to burn down before the main explosive goes off, (after the handle is released). I don't really know how long a foreign grenade has before it will go off. Probably around the same number of seconds. If one is experienced with throwing grenades, it might be smart to wait a second or two before throwing it. That way there would be less chance of it being thrown back at you. Also less chance that the enemy will run away before it goes off. It might also to be smart to try throwing it back. But maybe there isn't time for that. There may not be time to get everyone out of your foxhole or tank or whatever. Maybe the grenade has already rolled around for a couple seconds while everyone is scrambling to get out, and you know it's going to go off in the next second. I think it would take real balls to jump on a grenade to save your pals, in a situation like that. Many soldiers have died jumping on grenades to save their friends...several during the Vietnam War. I don't know if they all got Medals of Honor, but I think they should have. To say that jumping on a grenade is always wrong or stupid, is really a discredit to those who have given up their lives doing just that. By all means train people to throw them back or jump to one side and lay prone. But if you are caught in a situation where there isn't time for that, what are you going to do? I doubt if I'd ever have balls enough to jump on a live grenade, but I look up to those who had courage enough to do such a thing. And I think Amazon is right when it comes time to hand out medals. Officers seem to have gotten more than their share. It was often the bravery of NCO's or enlisted men who got the job done, while an officer took credit....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #12 November 14, 2006 QuoteI always thought that a disproportionate amount of medals were handed out to officers...... for the accomplishments of those under them. All officer promotions are directly attributable to the achievements of those whom he/she leads. Commissioning was the last promotion they earned themselves. I had one medal - an ARCOM, that I didn't get just for being in the Army. My troops received many more. What I did have were top notch OERs, which worked for me. Shit, I didn't even do airborne or air assault, thought I could have. Screw being a five-jump chump. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #13 November 14, 2006 I was talking more in line with the higher medals... just look at a list of Silver Stars....Bronze....DFC's etc. In the military medals = points for promotion for the most part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #14 November 14, 2006 Sadly, there are more posthumous medals for enlisted than officers. Shit flows downhill in the military, and if there isn't an officer somewhere in the way of it, the enlisted will bear the brunt. As you may be able to tell, my general opinion of the Army officer corps is not too high. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #15 November 14, 2006 Hell I had fun with the Army... all three weeks of it.. but at least they let me fall out of planes after putting up with their crap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
