steveorino 7 #76 November 15, 2006 It's okay. Even though my theology is Arminian, I believe Calvinist are going to heaven. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #77 November 15, 2006 QuoteIt's okay. Even though my theology is Arminian, I believe Calvinist are going to heaven. I do not believe in such a place. I'll probably just be reincarnated as a Arminist minister. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #78 November 15, 2006 QuoteI'm sorry you feel that way. I've made every attempt to rely strictly on information from the Bible. . Please accept my apology for my tongue in cheek comment that sounds rather morally superior when I reread it. There are two major schools of thought on free will in Christian theology, Calvinism and Arminism. The fundamentalist tend to be Calvinist. My theology is Arminian. Your understanding aligns with the calvinist interpretation whether you are Christian or not. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #79 November 15, 2006 QuoteI guess I'm not buying your "if you're omnipotent and omniscience -- no one has free will" argument. I'm more fond of the "if you're omnipotent and omniscient -- clap your hands" musical argument "if you're omnipotent and omniscient -- clap your hands" <> "if you're omnipotent and omniscient -- clap your hands" <> "if you're omnipotent and omniscient and your actions really reek of it" <> "if you're omnipotent and omniscient -- clap your hands" <> ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #80 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm sorry you feel that way. I've made every attempt to rely strictly on information from the Bible. . Please accept my apology for my tongue in cheek comment that sounds rather morally superior when I reread it. Accepted, but totally unnecessary. I hope I've said nothing to offend you. If I have, I apologize.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #81 November 15, 2006 Nah, it's all good ... hugs & kisses all around. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #82 November 15, 2006 >It has flaws in it's conception, the first being that you can think like >an omnipotent and omniscience god. Well, to be fair, most religions are founded on that very concept - that we know what an omnipotent and omniscient god (who is oddly just like us even though he's omnipotent) is thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #83 November 15, 2006 Quote>It has flaws in it's conception, the first being that you can think like >an omnipotent and omniscience god. Well, to be fair, most religions are founded on that very concept - that we know what an omnipotent and omniscient god (who is oddly just like us even though he's omnipotent) is thinking. Not Christianity. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,545 #84 November 15, 2006 Ah, but Steve -- people certainly study theology, and ascribe all kinds of stuff to the way that God thinks. So while Christianity might not, many Christians certainly do Somehow I've always thought that Christian theology was one of the most arrogant possible studies. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #85 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuote>It has flaws in it's conception, the first being that you can think like >an omnipotent and omniscience god. Well, to be fair, most religions are founded on that very concept - that we know what an omnipotent and omniscient god (who is oddly just like us even though he's omnipotent) is thinking. Not Christianity. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. this gets back to the Book of Job again. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #86 November 15, 2006 QuoteAh, but Steve -- people certainly study theology, and ascribe all kinds of stuff to the way that God thinks. So while Christianity might not, many Christians certainly do Somehow I've always thought that Christian theology was one of the most arrogant possible studies. Wendy W. Yep, I agree. People may say some things about me too -- some true, some not so true. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #87 November 16, 2006 QuoteWhat I find to be interesting is why someone who claims to have absolutely no belief in God would spend so much time[I'm guessing several hours in this thread alone] arguing about absolutely nothing[remember, God doesn't exist] with those who believe otherwise. Now I didn’t just wake up one morning I say, right that’s it im not believing in God anymore, (I was raised in a Christian family and regularly attended church as a child) I decided to approach it with an open mind, look at both sides of the argument, look at evidence for and against. After doing all this I came to the only logical conclusion. However it is still a learning process, and debating the subject is a great way to learn. Interestingly the more time I spend researching and debating the bible the stronger my Atheism grows, and I find it hard to understand how any educated person in this day and age believes otherwise and still embraces these myths, were not cavemen anymore… 10 simple facts against the story of Christ, now can someone perhaps Steveorino, Royd, maybe old Paj, or mockingbird, perhaps between the 4 of you come up with 10 simple “facts” for the story of Christ…. 1. There is NO evidence what so ever to support the stories of Christ as depicted in the bible. 2. Any evidence claimed is circumstantial and subjective. 3. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels that tell the story of Christ 4. There is not the smallest fragment of trustworthy evidence to show that any of the Gospels were in existence, in their present form, earlier than a hundred years after the time at which Christ is supposed to have died. 5. There is absolutely nothing to show that these Gospels -- the only sources of authority as to the existence of Christ -- were written until a hundred and fifty years after the events they pretend to describe. Walter R. Cassels, the learned author of "Supernatural Religion," one of the greatest works ever written on the origins of Christianity, says: "After having exhausted the literature and the testimony bearing on the point, we have not found a single distinct trace of any of those Gospels during the first century and a half after the death of Christ." How can Gospels which were not written until a hundred and fifty years after Christ is supposed to have died, and which do not rest on any trustworthy testimony, have the slightest value as evidence that he really lived 6. To date there is not a single piece of archaeological evidence to support the gospels. We haven’t found the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail or even Noah’s ark, and even the Turin Shroud is a proven fake… 7. Between the earliest Gospels and the oldest existing manuscripts of the New Testament, there is a blank gulf of three hundred years. It is, therefore, impossible to say what the original Gospels contained. 8. The civilization of Rome was the highest in the world. The Romans were the greatest lawyers the world had ever known. Their courts were models of order and fairness. A man was not condemned without a trial; he was not handed to the executioner before being found guilty. And yet we are asked to believe that an innocent man was brought before a Roman court, where Pontius Pilate was Judge; that no charge of wrongdoing having been brought against him, the Judge declared that he found him innocent; that the mob shouted, "Crucify him; crucify him!" and that to please the rabble, Pilate commanded that the man who had done no wrong and whom he had found innocent, should be scourged, and then delivered him to the executioners to be crucified! Is that the Rome to which the world owes its laws? In reading the story of the Crucifixion, are we reading history or religious fiction? 9. John E. Remsburg, in his scholarly work on "The Christ," has compiled a list of forty-two writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the time, of Christ, not one of whom ever mentioned him. 10. Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. i.e [I]Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.[/I]----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #88 November 16, 2006 QuoteThere is not the smallest fragment of trustworthy evidence to show that any of the Gospels were in existence, in their present form, earlier than a hundred years after the time at which Christ is supposed to have died. Apparently, the writers weren't filled with the greed of today's secularists, who write a useless book at the drop of a hat. QuoteAnd yet we are asked to believe that an innocent man was brought before a Roman court, where Pontius Pilate was Judge; that no charge of wrongdoing having been brought against him, the Judge declared that he found him innocent; that the mob shouted, "Crucify him; crucify him!" and that to please the rabble, Pilate commanded that the man who had done no wrong and whom he had found innocent, should be scourged, and then delivered him to the executioners to be crucified! Why should that be hard to believe. Two millenium later we still throw people to the wolves for the sake of political expediency. That tells me that time sure isn't doing much for the improvement of the human mind. Didn't I read that somewhere in the Scriptures? Something to the effect that "Man shall wax worse and worse." Quote10. Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. i.e Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.I am just not conflicted about such things. Maybe I'm just one of those simpltons that God looks after. Let me put this in a human scenario. It may be lame and incomplete but here goes. You are the parent of a typical boy who has a bunch of like minded freinds. There is an abandoned junkyard down the road, which you have deemed to be a dangerous place to play. You have warned your child not to go there because it's not safe. One summer afternoon there is no sign of the boys, and you know exactly where they are at. You decide to let life take its course. Not only is there a possibility of them getting injured and learning a lesson, but they will also be punished when they return for disobedience. To do less would be neglecting your responsibility of being a parent. God does the same with us. We are not just puppets. Just like the child in the junkyard, as we mature we recognize that Pappa knows best, and hopefully, we lose the rebellious attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #89 November 16, 2006 Quote10. Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. i.e Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood. Quote I am just not conflicted about such things. Maybe I'm just one of those simpltons that God looks after. Let me put this in a human scenario. It may be lame and incomplete but here goes. You are the parent of a typical boy who has a bunch of like minded freinds. There is an abandoned junkyard down the road, which you have deemed to be a dangerous place to play. You have warned your child not to go there because it's not safe. One summer afternoon there is no sign of the boys, and you know exactly where they are at. You decide to let life take its course. Not only is there a possibility of them getting injured and learning a lesson, but they will also be punished when they return for disobedience. To do less would be neglecting your responsibility of being a parent. God does the same with us. We are not just puppets. Just like the child in the junkyard, as we mature we recognize that Pappa knows best, and hopefully, we lose the rebellious attitude. Royd, do you understand what omniscient means?? –adjective 1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things. So your analogy doesn’t work because we are humans and an omniscient Gods. Now back to my point, if God is omniscient then we are unfortunately “puppets” as we would have no free will, otherwise we have a “paradox” So my point still stands, Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #90 November 16, 2006 Quote Now back to my point, if God is omniscient then we are unfortunately “puppets” as we would have no free will, otherwise we have a “paradox” So my point still stands, Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. Two schools of thought on this debate: Calvinism and Arminism. You are a Calvinist like most fundamentalists. I seldom spend too much time trying to convince a Calvinist he should be an Arminian. If you want an indepth look at how omniscience and fee will can co-exist read the writings of Jacobus Arminius. One flaw in your debate though is you put the creator of the world into your time restraints such as past, present & future. If God created the world into existence then he would be outside that (because he created it) and all time to Him (past, present & future) would be ever present. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #91 November 16, 2006 Quote 1. There is NO evidence what so ever to support the stories of Christ as depicted in the bible. Okay the very first Christians made it up and they knew they made it up. they propegated a lie so they could be run out of town, beaten, fed to the lions, imprisoned. yeah, that makes sense. LISTEN. I'm not talking about later Christians. Lots of religous people will die for what they believe to be truth. I'm talking about the very first ones, like the disciples. They would know it was all a sham if it were. I seriously doubt they would all die for that. 6. To date there is not a single piece of archaeological evidence to support the gospels. We haven’t found the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail or even Noah’s ark, and even the Turin Shroud is a proven fake… The AOC was OT - it ceased to be mentioned in OT times. Probably was melted down during Babyloinan captivity. Holy Grail is a Middle age myth, why would it be mentioned? Same with the Turin of Shroud. What would the early Christians keep? His robe? I guess some centurian owned it and unless he was converted I doubt he would let it go. It would make a good movie. JC owned NOTHING. Not much to keep until Middle age Christianity came along with their penchant for relics. 7. Between the earliest Gospels and the oldest existing manuscripts of the New Testament, there is a blank gulf of three hundred years. It is, therefore, impossible to say what the original Gospels contained Check the reliability of the DSS to the OT. They proved the OT scribes were VERY reliable in what they wrote. Early Christians were mostly Jews. Its not that unfathomable to believe they would protect the viability of scriptures just as the OT scribes did. Also where are getting your information? There are fundamental Christians whe believe Matthew wrote matthew, Mark wrote Mark, so on. No problem with that, but it may not be. There are fundamental atheist that believe NOTHING was written down until 300 AD. Somewhere in between lies the truth. Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ" and "A Case for Faith" give good research from a Chicago newspaper writer who was an atheists looking for facts. For instance: there are reputable sources that say Jewish historian, Josephus recorded about JC and his followers in the 1st century. He merely places them in history. It gets muddled by later christians who attribute to Josephus claims about JC's deity. Unfortuantely this makes critics throw out the reliable with the fakes. Josephus never wrote about JC being more than a man. There is no evidence he converted. There is strong eveidence that he recorded that JC existed and his followers were being put to death steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #92 November 16, 2006 QuoteOne flaw in your debate though is you put the creator of the world into your time restraints such as past, present & future. If God created the world into existence then he would be outside that (because he created it) and all time to Him (past, present & future) would be ever present. This point (that God is eternal) actually supports the Calvinist argument. If our futures are ever present, then they existed before and while we experience them, as well as afterward. Being eternal is being able to experience the time dimension as we experience our three space dimensions. We don't experience time in this way. Instead, we experience time as a dynamic point projection, not eternally.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #93 November 16, 2006 Around and around we go. This last point about free will and predestination and I'm done. I'm talking to a wall. Read the writings of Jacobus Arminius. He and John Calvin hammered about this over 400 years ago. The church is divided into two camps. Somehow I doubt your insight would change Arminius or any other Arminian theologian. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #94 November 16, 2006 QuoteOkay the very first Christians made it up and they knew they made it up. they propegated a lie so they could be run out of town, beaten, fed to the lions, imprisoned. yeah, that makes sense. LISTEN. I'm not talking about later Christians. Lots of religous people will die for what they believe to be truth. I'm talking about the very first ones, like the disciples. They would know it was all a sham if it were. I seriously doubt they would all die for that. In fairness, people die for lies they believe in all the time. Just look to the current conflicts in the middle east. Do you think Koresh's followers died because they knew a truth others were blind to? During the Crusades, which team was dying for the truth?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #95 November 16, 2006 QuoteAround and around we go. This last point about free will and predestination and I'm done. I'm talking to a wall. Read the writings of Jacobus Arminius. He and John Calvin hammered about this over 400 years ago. The church is divided into two camps. Somehow I doubt your insight would change Arminius or any other Arminian theologian. Let me ask you this before you quit: From our perspective, why does it matter whether we have free will or just experience the illusion of free will? Wouldn't the experience be exactly the same? Would the experience be lessened if life really is only a ride?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #96 November 16, 2006 Did you even read what I wrote? Sure I said people die al the time for what they BELIEVE to be true, but how many are willing to die the way they did for what they KNEW to be a sham? The first discples knew Christ was either still dead and fed to the dogs or they saw his resurrected body. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #97 November 16, 2006 QuoteDid you even read what I wrote? Sure I said people die al the time for what they BELIEVE to be true, but how many are willing to die the way they did for what they KNEW to be a sham? The first discples knew Christ was either still dead and fed to the dogs or they saw his resurrected body. Why the harsh tone? If you think I misunderstood what you wrote, there are better ways to bring it to my attention. There are even more possibilities. One is perhaps he didn't die on the cross as the stories say. Christ as a deity is very likely an add-on to Christianity, part of a "re-paganization of the religion.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #98 November 16, 2006 QuoteDid you even read what I wrote? I admire your persistence in trying the win a debate in a thread with this title. Just so you know ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #99 November 16, 2006 Quote Why the harsh tone? If you think I misunderstood what you wrote, there are better ways to bring it to my attention. you're right, my bad. Growing weary of people ignoring what I said. I made a clear distinction between dieing for a belief and dieng for a know sham. QuoteThere are even more possibilities. One is perhaps he didn't die on the cross as the stories say. Christ as a deity is very likely an add-on to Christianity, part of a "re-paganization of the religion. Certainly a possibility, improbable, but I guess possible, but as Paul wrote if there was no resurrection we are group of people to pitied more than all men. (1 Cor 15) steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #100 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteDid you even read what I wrote? I admire your persistence in trying the win a debate in a thread with this title. Just so you know LOL! I guess I am a a glutton for abuse. I simply don't like it when all Christians are lumped into one sum of illogical, non thinking mass. Not every Christian believes Genesis to be a history book. As far as Satan. Little if any is said about his origins. Much of what is attributed to him was written about someone else (ex. EZ 28 is a prophecy against the King of Tyre) and brought into dogma with non-biblical works from the likes of Milton. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jcd11235 0 #92 November 16, 2006 QuoteOne flaw in your debate though is you put the creator of the world into your time restraints such as past, present & future. If God created the world into existence then he would be outside that (because he created it) and all time to Him (past, present & future) would be ever present. This point (that God is eternal) actually supports the Calvinist argument. If our futures are ever present, then they existed before and while we experience them, as well as afterward. Being eternal is being able to experience the time dimension as we experience our three space dimensions. We don't experience time in this way. Instead, we experience time as a dynamic point projection, not eternally.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #93 November 16, 2006 Around and around we go. This last point about free will and predestination and I'm done. I'm talking to a wall. Read the writings of Jacobus Arminius. He and John Calvin hammered about this over 400 years ago. The church is divided into two camps. Somehow I doubt your insight would change Arminius or any other Arminian theologian. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #94 November 16, 2006 QuoteOkay the very first Christians made it up and they knew they made it up. they propegated a lie so they could be run out of town, beaten, fed to the lions, imprisoned. yeah, that makes sense. LISTEN. I'm not talking about later Christians. Lots of religous people will die for what they believe to be truth. I'm talking about the very first ones, like the disciples. They would know it was all a sham if it were. I seriously doubt they would all die for that. In fairness, people die for lies they believe in all the time. Just look to the current conflicts in the middle east. Do you think Koresh's followers died because they knew a truth others were blind to? During the Crusades, which team was dying for the truth?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #95 November 16, 2006 QuoteAround and around we go. This last point about free will and predestination and I'm done. I'm talking to a wall. Read the writings of Jacobus Arminius. He and John Calvin hammered about this over 400 years ago. The church is divided into two camps. Somehow I doubt your insight would change Arminius or any other Arminian theologian. Let me ask you this before you quit: From our perspective, why does it matter whether we have free will or just experience the illusion of free will? Wouldn't the experience be exactly the same? Would the experience be lessened if life really is only a ride?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #96 November 16, 2006 Did you even read what I wrote? Sure I said people die al the time for what they BELIEVE to be true, but how many are willing to die the way they did for what they KNEW to be a sham? The first discples knew Christ was either still dead and fed to the dogs or they saw his resurrected body. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #97 November 16, 2006 QuoteDid you even read what I wrote? Sure I said people die al the time for what they BELIEVE to be true, but how many are willing to die the way they did for what they KNEW to be a sham? The first discples knew Christ was either still dead and fed to the dogs or they saw his resurrected body. Why the harsh tone? If you think I misunderstood what you wrote, there are better ways to bring it to my attention. There are even more possibilities. One is perhaps he didn't die on the cross as the stories say. Christ as a deity is very likely an add-on to Christianity, part of a "re-paganization of the religion.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #98 November 16, 2006 QuoteDid you even read what I wrote? I admire your persistence in trying the win a debate in a thread with this title. Just so you know ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #99 November 16, 2006 Quote Why the harsh tone? If you think I misunderstood what you wrote, there are better ways to bring it to my attention. you're right, my bad. Growing weary of people ignoring what I said. I made a clear distinction between dieing for a belief and dieng for a know sham. QuoteThere are even more possibilities. One is perhaps he didn't die on the cross as the stories say. Christ as a deity is very likely an add-on to Christianity, part of a "re-paganization of the religion. Certainly a possibility, improbable, but I guess possible, but as Paul wrote if there was no resurrection we are group of people to pitied more than all men. (1 Cor 15) steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #100 November 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteDid you even read what I wrote? I admire your persistence in trying the win a debate in a thread with this title. Just so you know LOL! I guess I am a a glutton for abuse. I simply don't like it when all Christians are lumped into one sum of illogical, non thinking mass. Not every Christian believes Genesis to be a history book. As far as Satan. Little if any is said about his origins. Much of what is attributed to him was written about someone else (ex. EZ 28 is a prophecy against the King of Tyre) and brought into dogma with non-biblical works from the likes of Milton. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
