steveorino 7 #101 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWas the betrayal of Jesus (which led to his death) absolutely immoral? To me betrayal is not absolutely wrong/immoral. i do not believe it would be wrong If I betrayed the trust of my boss who was committing a heinous crime. So we have come to the conclusion that morals do not prove the existence of God and morals are not absolute. So what is your point? #1 I NEVER said all morals are absolute. #2 I asked if there were absolute morals and if there were what would they prove? I theorized God. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #102 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteBut you do believe it was not ABSOLUTELY wrong from a moral standpoint, right? From my moral standpoint it was absolutely wrong. But as I said, my moral code is my abstract construct - it doesn't actually exist and huge amounts of people will disagree with it. Therefore it is NOT ABSOLUTELY wrong ... right? Right. Nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #103 November 9, 2006 Your reasoning is ... well interesting. I'll stop at that cause while I'm an imperfect man living in an imperfect world I recognize there are certain things I "could" say but I will follow the absolute morals I know to be true and refrain from answering. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #104 November 9, 2006 QuoteTherefore it is NOT ABSOLUTELY wrong ... right? Not anmy more then there is an absolute right. How many times have we've seen someone posting on here that child molesters should be beaten to death, and it would be the right thing to do? These people feel its absolutely right. Is it?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #105 November 9, 2006 Quote Right. Nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right. At least you admit it without talking me into circles. (I know I started some circular motion myself) Any other believe that all morals are arbitrary (only personal or cultural)? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #106 November 9, 2006 QuoteYour reasoning is ... well interesting. I'll stop at that cause while I'm an imperfect man living in an imperfect world I recognize there are certain things I "could" say but I will follow the absolute morals I know to be true and refrain from answering. Go ahead, I've thick skin. What do you see wrong with the logic?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #107 November 9, 2006 QuoteAny other believe that all morals are arbitrary (only personal or cultural)? Not arbitrary, as they usually exist for a reason, but they are definitely personal and/or cultural.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #108 November 9, 2006 REMOVED: sorry repeating myself here steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #109 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteYour reasoning is ... well interesting. I'll stop at that cause while I'm an imperfect man living in an imperfect world I recognize there are certain things I "could" say but I will follow the absolute morals I know to be true and refrain from answering. Go ahead, I've thick skin. What do you see wrong with the logic? Sorry, the thickness of someone else's skin does not dictate to me whether I should act like an a-hole or not. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #110 November 9, 2006 >Any other believe that all morals are arbitrary (only personal or cultural)? As I've said before, the most basic of our morals (protecting children, not allowing our friends/families to be hurt, protecting the tribe/pod, being 'fair' in dealings with others) are instinctive, which is why everyone agrees on them. The higher morals (i.e. you should not cheat on your taxes) are intellectual, and are thus hotly debated. I wouldn't call them arbitrary, since they are based on our instinctive morals, but they are also subject to debate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #111 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWas the betrayal of Jesus (which led to his death) absolutely immoral? To me betrayal is not absolutely wrong/immoral. i do not believe it would be wrong If I betrayed the trust of my boss who was committing a heinous crime. So we have come to the conclusion that morals do not prove the existence of God and morals are not absolute. So what is your point? #1 I NEVER said all morals are absolute. #2 I asked if there were absolute morals and if there were what would they prove? I theorized God. This is similar to NP-Complete problems. We can't prove there isn't a single solution but at the same time we can't find a single solution. (Not to mention there are people who believe that there exist absolute moral guidelines regardless of context and it is people who are arbitrary in following them.) If there were absolute morals than it would prove who is moral and who is immoral in the absolute and we could divide the population and ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #112 November 9, 2006 Quote As I've said before, the most basic of our morals (protecting children, not allowing our friends/families to be hurt, protecting the tribe/pod, being 'fair' in dealings with others) are instinctive, which is why everyone agrees on them. . Sorry, got hit and run (class) I remember one of my pyschology professors stating humans are not born with instincts -- they are all learned. Why do we all learn the same instincts? Sorry gotta run. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #113 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour reasoning is ... well interesting. I'll stop at that cause while I'm an imperfect man living in an imperfect world I recognize there are certain things I "could" say but I will follow the absolute morals I know to be true and refrain from answering. Go ahead, I've thick skin. What do you see wrong with the logic? Sorry, the thickness of someone else's skin does not dictate to me whether I should act like an a-hole or not. I personally believe the assassination was immoral. However, I cannot look at it objectively and still assume it was absolutely immoral, based on my beliefs, or even the beliefs of the majority of others. Someone thought it was right, or it would not have happened. There are 6 billion people in the world, and there are 6 billion different sets of morals.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #114 November 9, 2006 > I remember one of my pyschology professors stating humans are > not born with instincts -- they are all learned. Why do we all learn > the same instincts? Hmm, I wonder why he thinks that? You can't test it (unless you want to raise a kid in a jail cell seeing no one!) All higher animals share some "morals" if you will that are hard-coded into them. They exhibit cooperation, trust, loyalty, even fairness. The details are set by their environment - chimpanzees have a somewhat different set of morals than cheetas do, for example, because one is a hunter and the other is primarily a gatherer. Human beings have less instinctive programming than most animals because we just plain don't need it as much. Human children are taught a lot more, over a much longer time, than most other young animals, so they don't (for example) need to know how to fight, or form tribes, from day 1. But we still have the vestiges of all that instinctive programming, even though we don't need some of it any more. Think of moral instincts like appendixes. Most six month olds can swim after some thrashing about. They come with an innate fear of heights and a desire to be with those of their own kind. By the time they start showing behavior associated with patriotism and fairness, they're old enough to have learned such behaviors, so you can't 'prove' that they are innate. But given that all other animals show such behaviors, I think it's very, very likely that we inherit the same sorts of behaviors that they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #115 November 9, 2006 I believe ... We are animals and have evolved brains that contain information to survive in the environment (amongst and with other plants animals) and have evolved brains that promote the learning of information to survive and or thrive in the environment (amongst and with other plants and animals). PS: If you really want a question where are memories stored?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #116 November 9, 2006 QuoteAny other believe that all morals are arbitrary (only personal or cultural)? No, they're not arbitrary. I think they are based partly on instinct and partly on what we have learned makes advanced society work.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #117 November 10, 2006 > I remember one of my pyschology professors stating humans are > not born with instincts -- they are all learned. Why do we all learn > the same instincts? Hmm, I wonder why he thinks that? You can't test it (unless you want to raise a kid in a jail cell seeing no one!) because he still clings to the "nurture" side of the "nature vs. nurture" argument. Like BF Skinner and his box. :) There are a lot of differing opinions in psychology. I guess that reflects the softness of the science. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #118 November 10, 2006 QuoteMurder (not war, not capital punishment, etc) is universally accepted as being immoral. Is your God immoral?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #119 November 10, 2006 I believe that there is God and satan. Good and evil. Some of that belief comes from my life experiences and some comes natural. I believe that "something" is God's work. I do have free will to choose evil though. I think it is also interesting that you have to teach a child to do whats right. They don't have to be taught to throw fits and how not to behave. At 41, I am learning that lesson first hand. I have a 1 1/2 year old. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
