Does moral objectivity mean there is a God?

[steveorino 7]

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1) You haven't shown that there are universal morals. You might think murder is one but there are plenty of murders carried out each year. Even governments have authorised them. Historically murder has been used as a tool for political purposes. It is a very popular passtime.

Show me one culture where what they define is murder is acceptable? Murders are carried out every day ... Yes, they are and every culture deplores them. no culture thinks murders are good. Governments have authorized killing, but to make it pallatable to their culture which deplores murder they call it war, justice, or make the object of their murder subhuman.(slaves, Indians, Jews, Americans, etc)

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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Your argument is basically:
God is the source of universal morals.
Some morals are universal.
Therefore god exists.

It's a shit argument.

Actually my theory (not argument) is:
There are universal morals
To me that logicaly points to a universal creator of morals.

No. You're still begging the question. All you've got is that there might be some universal morals. You might just as well conculde that having 10 toes is the root cause of morals, or having opposable thumbs is the cause of morals, or liking ice cream causes morals. It's a shit theory.

[rehmwa 2]

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The argument could also be made that morality was ingrained in us by evolution. Primitive tribes that slaughtered themselves or warred constantly with their neighbors would be far less likely to pass on their DNA than tribes that were able to live peacefully.

varous responses -

religious - see the majesty of the design of our creator and how we learn through His plan? please contribute

atheist - see how stupid religious people are? religion makes me uncomfortable

all of the rest of us tired people - that sounds as good as any other reason

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steveorino 7]

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[
Your argument is basically:
God is the source of universal morals.
Some morals are universal.
Therefore god exists.

It's a shit argument.

Actually my theory (not argument) is:
There are universal morals
To me that logicaly points to a universal creator of morals.

No. You're still begging the question. All you've got is that there might be some universal morals. You might just as well conculde that having 10 toes is the root cause of morals, or having opposable thumbs is the cause of morals, or liking ice cream causes morals. It's a shit theory.

Your analogy is very lacking.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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Your analogy is very lacking.

Can you explain why please?

[Remster 30]

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where what they define is murder is acceptable?

So societies own definitions of murder, which is very variable though time and geography, is guided by 1 god since it would be based on a objective moral that transcends time and place?

Which side of the argument are you on again?

Remster

[steveorino 7]

I'm saying NO culture approves of murder unless they redefine it or those they kill (justice, war, etc) It is not a difficult case to understand.

There are other virtues that are typically universal. Is there a culture where turning your back on friends is approved of?

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Your analogy is very lacking.

Can you explain why please?

Every culture abhores what they define as murder. Not every culture likes or has ice cream. Talk about *&%# theory.

steveOrino

[Remster 30]

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Is there a culture where turning your back on friends is approved of?

The Amish kids get to live life on the outside of their communities for a while (1 year I think) and then decide if they want to leave their communities.

Next?

Remster

[jakee 1,610]

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If you keep redefining words you can succesfully argue whatever the hell you want, but it will be a very hollow victory.

I'm not trying to REdefine any word, but hopefully come to a common understanding of what MURDER is (it is not war, it is not capital punishment, etc) . In fact the only way cultures approve of murder is to redefine it. (Jews are subhuman, NA and slaves are subhuman)

Ok look, you've talked yourself around in a circle.

You've started off saying that 'murder is wrong' is a moral absolute that is shared by everyone. You have then gone on to demonstrate that a) murder itself is not an absolute and b) even among those who share a definiton of muder they find it very easy to circumvent it and commit murder without calling it such.

In amongst the semantics you have in fact proved that the killing of a person by another person for no good reason is not only acceptable but downright encouraged throughout the world.

For your theory to work this should be the absolute - that the killing of a person is wrong. You yourself have shown this not to be the case.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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Is there a culture where turning your back on friends is approved of?

The Amish kids get to live life on the outside of their communities for a while (1 year I think) and then decide if they want to leave their communities.

Next?

Not exactly the same thing as I was implying, their community doesn't approve of (for lack of a better word) dissing their friends.

steveOrino

[Remster 30]

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Not exactly the same thing as I was implying,

One thing is for sure... god didnt make us mind readers....

Remster

[steveorino 7]

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For your theory to work this should be the absolute - that the killing of a person is wrong. You yourself have shown this not to be the case.

It is to your advantage to be obtuse. You are not addressing what I have said. No culture approves of murder unless they redefine it.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Not exactly the same thing as I was implying,

One thing is for sure... god didnt make us mind readers....

LOL! That is for sure. Plus I suck at typing. I grew up in the era before word processors. Only girls took typing in my HS unless the guy wanted help scoring with chicks by being the only rooster in the hen house.

Gotta go now -- preside over the funeral for my friend Chris Hadley

steveOrino

[Lindsey 0]

Actually my theory (not argument) is:
There are universal morals
To me that logicaly points to a universal creator of morals.

It might indicate that certain behaviors promote the survival of a species and that we have evolved to incorporate these behaviors into our morality.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Nightingale 0]

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LOL! That is for sure. Plus I suck at typing. I grew up in the era before word processors. Only girls took typing in my HS unless the guy wanted help scoring with chicks by being the only rooster in the hen house.

Hehe. that's the same reason several guys at my college took ballet.

[Butters 0]

Morals were more likely created by man (hopefully through logic and reasoning) in an attempt to create social guidelines that benefited the individuals and the group.

Example: Do Not Murder

Benefits the individual because it lowers your chance of being murdered.

Benefits the group because if someone is murdered there are complications (loss of family, friend, worker, ...)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pocbase 0]

While I believe in God, I voted no and I would tend to agree with Butters on this one.

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[KidWicked 0]

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[
Your argument is basically:
God is the source of universal morals.
Some morals are universal.
Therefore god exists.

It's a shit argument.

Actually my theory (not argument) is:
There are universal morals
To me that logicaly points to a universal creator of morals.

No. You're still begging the question. All you've got is that there might be some universal morals. You might just as well conculde that having 10 toes is the root cause of morals, or having opposable thumbs is the cause of morals, or liking ice cream causes morals. It's a shit theory.

Your analogy is very lacking.

No it isn't. You're dodging the argument because you've been trounced.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[jcd11235 0]

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Murder (not war, not capital punishment, etc) is universally accepted as being immoral.

That doesn't sound very universal.

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[jcd11235 0]

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I thought that Humanism would reject your assertion that certain moral codes are universal. I think Humanism is a religion, however it rejects moral absolutes.
.

Has there been a complete culture were murder was accepted as being amoral?

Cultures that also practice cannibalism, perhaps?

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[jcd11235 0]

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Actually my theory (not argument) is:
There are universal morals
To me that logicaly points to a universal creator of morals.

Please support this assumption.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[livendive 8]

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Certain moral codes are universal. Does this imply a supreme being? Try and explain your response if possible.

Not necessarily. It seems feasible to me that such moral codes relate to preservation of the species, and are therefore the result of natural selection as opposed to supernaturally imposed.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jakee 1,610]

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You are not addressing what I have said. No culture approves of murder unless they redefine it.

And once they redefine it they approve of it. It is the action that is important, not the description. I'm going to paraphrase your argument back to you.

"There are lots of ways to describe killing someone. For the sake of this argument, we will define 'murder' as the word people use to describe a killing that is not acceptable by their societal norms. Once we do this we find that every culture in the world disagrees with murder! This cannot be a coincidence."

Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,182]

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Murder (not war, not capital punishment, etc) is universally accepted as being immoral.

Capital punishment is accepted as OK in the USA, Iraq, N. Korea, Iran, Saudi and a few other places, but is considered immoral in most "western" nations including all of Europe.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.