George Will- Cheney Still Doesn't Get It on Iraq

[marcandalysse 0]

Even George Will is hammering the administration!

Quote

Will: Cheney Still Doesn't Get It on Iraq
A surreal facet of the Iraq fiasco is the lag between when a fact becomes obvious and when the fiasco's architects acknowledge it.
By George F. Will
Newsweek
Nov. 6, 2006 issue - Many months ago it became obvious to all but the most ideologically blinkered that America is losing the war launched to deal with a chimeric problem (an arsenal of WMD) and to achieve a delusory goal (a democracy that would inspire emulation, transforming the region). Last week the president retired his mantra "stay the course" because it does not do justice to the nimbleness and subtlety of U.S. tactics for winning the war.

A surreal and ultimately disgusting facet of the Iraq fiasco is the lag between when a fact becomes obvious and when the fiasco's architects acknowledge that fact. Iraq's civil war has been raging for more than a year; so has the Washington debate about whether it is what it is.

In a recent interview with Vice President Cheney, Time magazine asked, "If you had to take back any one thing you'd said about Iraq, what would it be?" Selecting from what one hopes is a very long list, Cheney replied: "I thought that the elections that we went through in '05 would have had a bigger impact on the level of violence than they have ... I thought we were over the hump in terms of violence. I think that was premature."

He thinks so? Clearly, and weirdly, he implies that the elections had some positive impact on the level of violence. Worse, in the full transcript of the interview posted online he said the big impact he expected from the elections "hasn't happened yet." "Yet"? Doggedness can be admirable, but this is clinical.

Anyway, what Cheney actually said 17 months ago was that the insurgency was in its "last throes." That was much stronger than saying we were "over the hump" regarding violence. Beware of people who misquote themselves while purporting to display candor.

The latest plan to pacify Baghdad—announced in June, declared a failure in October—was called Operation Together Forward. But U.S.-Iraqi togetherness is a sometime thing. Last April, The Washington Post's Jonathan Finer reported from Hawijah, Iraq, on a joint patrol to search for roadside bombs. The Iraqis refused to ride in armored U.S. Humvees, preferring pickup trucks because a cleric told them that anyone killed in an "occupier vehicle" would not go to heaven. Eventually, after threatening them with jail, U.S. Army Lt. Aaron Tapalman browbeat them into Humvees:

"About an hour later, the patrol came across a white bag on the roadside that Tapalman suspected might contain a bomb. When he asked some Iraqi soldiers to move it off the road, their commander balked, saying it wasn't his job. 'It is your job to protect the people,' Tapalman said, increasingly exasperated. 'I can go and move it myself, and you know what? I will, but don't you think your people should see you doing that kind of stuff? Someday we're not going to be here anymore.' The Iraqi soldier declined again, apologetically, and drove away."

A mordant joke told during the Cold War concerned asking an Italian, a Frenchman, an Englishman and a Russian to each describe his most cherished dream. The Italian said, "I want my country to produce the greatest artists." The Frenchman said, "I want my nation to produce the greatest philosophers." The Englishman said, "I want my country to produce the greatest parliamentarians." The Russian said, "I want my neighbor's cow to die."

The joke was no laughing matter because it turned on this truth: A history of brutalizing tyranny had stunted the Russians' aptitude for collective aspirations. Which brings us back to Iraq, which Patrick J. McDonnell of the Los Angeles Times covered for two years following the 2003 invasion. He recently returned. His Oct. 23 report ( "Into the Abyss of Baghdad") begins:

"I keep seeing his face. He appears to be in his mid-20s, bespectacled, slightly bearded, and somehow his smile conveys a sense of prosperity to come. Perhaps he is set to marry, or enroll in graduate school, or launch a business—all these flights of ambition seem possible. In the next few images he is encased in plastic: His face is frozen in a ghoulish grimace. Blackened lesions blemish his neck. 'Drill holes,' says Col. Khaled Rasheed, an Iraqi commander who is showing me the set of photographs."


Electric drills are the death squads' preferred instruments of torture. McDonnell:

"One evening I accompanied a three-Humvee convoy of MPs through largely Shiite east Baghdad ... The objective that evening was to patrol with Iraqi police, but the Iraqi lawmen are hesitant to be seen with Americans, whom they regard as IED [improvised explosive device] magnets. The joint patrol never worked out ... The next night, an armor-piercing bomb hit the same squad, Gator 1-2. A sergeant with whom I had ridden the previous evening lost a leg; the gunner and driver suffered severe shrapnel wounds."

For what?


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15460708/site/newsweek/

[kallend 2,182]

George Will, The Army Times... what's next? Will Gravitymaster and Rushmc finally admit that Iraq is a fiasco and that B/C/R have no clue?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Samurai136 0]

Neither of them are running for an elected position. The political tactic for the republican congress is to break rank with the administration in an appeal to the voters.

If they are re-elected, I suspect that the republicans who apply this tactic will quickly return to the administrations talking points.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Amazon 7]

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

[kallend 2,182]

Quote

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

The right is conspicuous by its absence from this thread.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

The right is conspicuous by its absence from this thread.

Among others

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

George Will, The Army Times... what's next? Will Gravitymaster and Rushmc finally admit that Iraq is a fiasco and that B/C/R have no clue?

nope........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

The right is conspicuous by its absence from this thread.

Typically I avoid stupid threads. this is one of those I just had to chime in on however.

By the way, I was running a combine all weekend (if you care to know).....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,182]

Quote

Quote

Quote

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

The right is conspicuous by its absence from this thread.

Typically I avoid stupid threads. this is one of those I just had to chime in on however.

By the way, I was running a combine all weekend (if you care to know).....

Why is a thread about George Will's comments any more "stupid" than some of the threads you've started?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

THE RIGHT is SOOO desparate to believe in their own RED [WHITE]WHITE[/WHITE] and BLUE LIES.

The right is conspicuous by its absence from this thread.

Typically I avoid stupid threads. this is one of those I just had to chime in on however.

By the way, I was running a combine all weekend (if you care to know).....

Why is a thread about George Will's comments any more "stupid" than some of the threads you've started?

The first post was interesting to read. It was all down hill after that.

Sorry my posts starts are more stupid than yours

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

The first post was interesting to read. It was all down hill after that.

So, what do you think of George Wills opinion?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

The first post was interesting to read. It was all down hill after that.

So, what do you think of George Wills opinion?

I understand it but I don't agree with.

The Bagdad area is in a civil war situation but that is such a small part of what is going on in the whole country. The snippets and sound bites we get on the news (the drive by media) is what they use to support the action line they want. IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Why is a thread about George Will's comments any more "stupid" than some of the threads you've started?

If it does not come from the EIB.. it has no merit.

[kallend 2,182]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The first post was interesting to read. It was all down hill after that.

So, what do you think of George Wills opinion?

I understand it but I don't agree with.

The Bagdad area is in a civil war situation but that is such a small part of what is going on in the whole country. The snippets and sound bites we get on the news (the drive by media) is what they use to support the action line they want. IMO

"Bring 'em on"

Bush knows what he's doing.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,132]

>The Bagdad area is in a civil war situation . . .

Well, that's progress. Six months ago, war supporters were avoiding the mention of civil war like the plauge. I think it's important to acknowledge what's really going on; that way it can be fixed.

> The snippets and sound bites we get on the news . . .

You mean like "the Baghdad area is in a civil war situation?"

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>The Bagdad area is in a civil war situation . . .

Well, that's progress. Six months ago, war supporters were avoiding the mention of civil war like the plauge. I think it's important to acknowledge what's really going on; that way it can be fixed.

> The snippets and sound bites we get on the news . . .

You mean like "the Baghdad area is in a civil war situation?"

Ya, got any idea of what great things are going on in the rest (majority) of the country??

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

>Ya, got any idea of what great things are going on in the rest
>(majority) of the country??

Mainly just commenting on your claim that Baghdad is in a civil war, followed immediately with a condemnation of people who report on snippets and sound bites that sound bad. Did you mean to condemn only people who report on things you disagree with?

But to answer the question -

The majority of the country is open desert, and I hear things are not too bad there at all. But where people actually are, in the past two days or so we had a US soldier killed in Anbar, a marine killed in west Baghdad, and Fallujah saw an attack against a US outpost (no one killed, fortunately). Sunnis are fleeing Ramadi because of the continuing violence. US forces are under constant attack there and have started to abandon street-to-street fighting in favor of aerial attacks, which are less precise but less risky. The majority of Iraqis there want Americans to leave. A comment from Jamaal al-Jubouri, an Iraqi college student: "It's not surprising. If the Americans cannot win in Ramadi, they certainly can't control all of Iraq."

Baghdad is indeed worse than a lot of other cities, but "better than Baghdad" does not equal "good."

[rushmc 23]

Mainly just commenting on your claim that Baghdad is in a civil war, followed immediately with a condemnation of people who report on snippets and sound bites that sound bad. Did you mean to condemn only people who report on things you disagree with?

Quote

First off this pharagraph is insulting! If you truly do not know what I meant then ask

As for your other assurtions of dessert and no other people well, you need to do more research. I could point you in the right , uh sorry, correct direction But I think you like to do your own research.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

• Quote

[kallend 2,182]

Quote

As for your other assurtions of dessert .

I just fancy a hot fudge sundae right now.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,132]

>First off this pharagraph is insulting! If you truly do not know what I meant then ask.

Sorry, I was assuming you meant what you posted.

>As for your other assurtions of dessert and no other people . . .

Dessert is more fun when there are people to share it with!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>First off this pharagraph is insulting! If you truly do not know what I meant then ask.

Sorry, I was assuming you meant what you posted.

>As for your other assurtions of dessert and no other people . . .

Dessert is more fun when there are people to share it with!

No aint we funny........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

As for your other assurtions of dessert .

I just fancy a hot fudge sundae right now.

LOL

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>First off this pharagraph is insulting! If you truly do not know what I meant then ask.

Sorry, I was assuming you meant what you posted.

>As for your other assurtions of dessert and no other people . . .

Dessert is more fun when there are people to share it with!

not too surprising you did not respond to the point........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

>not too surprising you did not respond to the point........

I didn't even understand your point! What was it?

[azdiver 0]

Quote

Quote

Why is a thread about George Will's comments any more "stupid" than some of the threads you've started?

If it does not come from the EIB.. it has no merit.

but if kerry or clinton say it its gospel right

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak