Voting preference of the military

[Lucky... 0]

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Hmmm...Free BA (paid by DoD) ~$37,000
Free MBA ~$20,000 (paid by DoD)
Free J.D. ~40,000 (paid by Illinois/Fed VA)

Me as an attorney at age 32 w/NO debts to pay off?

...I'd call it a good deal.

I don't think it's a bad thing to go in commissioned, just enlisted. However, if you would have gone to law school at 22YO you would be a milionaire or on the way by 32. Is it not so bad?

[GQ_jumper 4]

As my dear friend SFC Cline just pointed out(thanks Matt), the enlisted ranks are full of bright people, but I'm sure you are goingto brush it off as being too small a sample to mean anything and then claim that you think less than 10 out of one hundred are pursuing an education(without anything to back up your statistics BTW). So how about we go through a couple of your comments shall we.

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That settles it then, a sample size of 1 - done deal. I still stand by my assertion that <10% of enlisted military personnel take even 3 credits toward at least an associates degree. How many are you taking?

I never said that because of the fact that I alone am taking college that all enlisted personnel are, please read all of my posts next time instead of picking and choosing, I won't restate my point as it's already been said and a closer look at what I said will show you that. To answer your question about my college though, last semester I took 7 credits, and this semester I was only able to take 3 due to the fact that I am preparing for another trip to Iraq and obviously training has to come before furthering my education. BTW, what does the number of credits have to do with anything, the simple fact that I successfully take classes while working far more hours than your typical full-time civilian employee, work out three times a day, keep my girlfriend happy, spend time with friends, skydive, and even walk my dog isn't too shabby if you ask me(or most other people for that matter).

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And yet you still think you can speak for all the people in all the branches of teh military. You will learn, especially if you ever get out of your first year of college, meaning > 30 credits, that data is highly important in a debate such as this. Tribal knowledge is good for the A-hole as the bar telling us about his street-smarts.

I never said I could speak for all branches of the military, how about i take away your ability to twist things I say. Less than one percent of all the people I have ever encountered in the military(the ones I had a chance to speak to about this subject) volunteered for those reasons which you speak of. And once again I ask, when did I ever talk myself up for having "street smarts"? I have mentioned life-experience and maturity, never once did I say anything about bein able to survive in the "hood". How about I define what life experience means to me so you can stop talking about your friend the crack dealer, when I speak of life experience I am personally talking about an understanding of the world beyond the classroom, this is not just the ghetto or the hood as you imply i keep referring too. Students spend many years in a classroom where I don't feel (notice I never spoke about how I know this to be true so don't even try it) that they get the chance to really experience what this world has to offer until they graduate, a soldier will most likely have experienced more of that, something that I personally feel has a lot to do with a person growing and maturing.

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Ya, I will look too. You can't take your circle of friends, as if they are all in college, and use that as a representation of how many 100's of thpousands of troops? But sure, find it. I'm guessing <10% are enrolled in a collegiate class toward an associates or higher, not some fluffy elective class.

Once again I never said my teammates represented the entire military, I was merely using them as an example. I have personally looked at the statistics collected by the military, and they have shown that a good percentage(again I don't know it off hand so won't throw out a number) of soldiers are taking classes and that number is constantly growing. On that note though, what does it matter what kind of class it is, the simple fact is that they are taking a college level course that will bring them a few steps closer to a degree in the long run, who cares if we take an upper level math course as opposed to "Intro to Crime in America"(my first college course by the way, I graduated at the top of my class).

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Furthermore, with all the people being shipped over to Iraq, how does that affect the ability to attend school? When I was in there was no way to finish 1 semester, as there would be work requirements.

When you were in was different than now, even during a deployment most soldiers have more than enough time to complete at least a few credit hours. I could very justifiably say that SF teams are the hardest working guys in Iraq, wake up at 6 work out with the Iraqis, take them to the range at 8 finish mid-afternoon, prepare for a mission, hit targets til well after midnight, go to sleep, repeat!! This was most days last time I was over there and I still could have found time to study, again I'm not taking my team as the WHOLE ARMY as you say I do, but if we can do it so can all the support soldiers sitting on bases working shifts. Go to www.earmyu.com, I'm pretty sure they have countless stories listed on there about soldiers who finished degrees while in Iraq, a mix of associates and bachelors.

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Don't take it personally or as an insult. You will understand if/when you graduate. Street smarts as I had, you claim to have, are great if you're selling drugs, rolling people, etc.. "Book smarts" which are more than that, are far more important. WHo will have a better life, a 300lb doorman or a lawyer? Done arguing a silly point yet? We have bastardized natural selection, hell, look at the alpha male, Bill Gates.

Also, do I need to supply several sites that explain thru data how there is a direct correlation between education and income?

Why must you be so condescending? you blatantly said I am too stupid to understand you until I finish college, if I ever do. I do not disagree that a higher education will get you money, but you say it like higher education and a bigger paycheck make you a better person. And why would Bill Gates be listed as the alpha male? Because he has money, money isn't everything pal, there is more to life than it, honestly if I could spend the rest of my life living off of ramen noodles in a trailor at the DZ training for the World Meet, I would competition is fulfilling enough for me. But someday I would like to have a family and don't want them to have to live like that so I am currently pursuing a degree(luckily there is an aspect of the corporate world that peaks my interest) so I can give my future child a great life. The fact that Bill Gates makes more than me in no way makes him superior, remember when you strip everything away we are still creatures of nature, and in nature the strong survive, and no I'm not talking about being a 300 pound crack dealing doorman named huggy bar. So quit using that angle, it's getting old quick.

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Furthermore, you just admitted what I was arguing, many service members don't have critical thinking skills, I agree.

I did no such thing, I said a few of the people in my selection class failed for that reason, I believe the number was 2(if that, it's been a while). Considering the class started with 220, that's a good number, the other 140+ that didn't make it were for reasons other than lack of intellectual ability.

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You presume.

No, I will. who are you to say I won't accomplish my goals.

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You;re mixing apples/oranges here. You're comparing a 30 year old to a 22 year old. Some corps like em young so they can mold them. Most important jobs are filled thru teh grapevone anywho, so stop thinking qualifications matter.

After reading this, I see you buy all the BS they feed you, ala brainwashing. Let's compare you and your GI Joe background at 30 with a guy/girl who is also 30 and has a proven corporate track record of success that is documented. Don't think these guys are frothing at the mouth to hire a GI. In fact, most corps look at them as stupid for enlisting. Government agencies seem to like GI's, but corp guys think they're dumb for wasting their time. Don't believe me, OK. Furthermore, what I ran into was that military experience is often more focussed than civilian work, so they don't exactly adore that. Problem solving for a GI is to find your boss, as you don't dare do shit w/o them.

Furthermore, how far along are you? If you just started, count on 6 years at the very least to have an undergraduate degree, another 4 for a grad. You might be 35+ b4 you;re done, which is OK, but it sounds lofty by your time schedule.

OK, so here you are stating that mosts large companies look down on soldiers, so you because you've asked a few you speak for all of them(yes I know you said most not all, but where are your facts huh?), wasn't it you who said the educated and enlightened tend not to speak in absolutes, do you have some statistics to back this up. I doubt it, there's a word for what this, I'll let you figure it out, you've been to college. And just because you couldn't make a decision without an NCO pointing you in the right direction please don't assume the rest of us are like that. Don't dre do shit without them, anytime the boss has other obligations that pull him away from the team we manage ourselves, and this can very well be applied for the majority of soldiers, I see them taking the initiative in the absence of leadership all the time.
And who cares how far along I am, is this a race? Does it make a difference if at 35 I get the degree I want, so long as I was doing something I love along the way it makes no difference to me, I'm sorry if you see life about nothign more than reaching educational milestones young, but for some of us there is more to it. this is the way you percieve a successful life to be, not everyone.

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No way dude. I was there, I have great repsect for people in that shit. But does that mean I must falsely say they are brilliant? Fuck no, intellectually I think they are way below the average person entering college. As a generalization, people enlist because their homelife sucks; it;s an easy way out.

So a soldier serving their country and interracting with other cultures is intellectually inferior to a college student sitting in their dorm room smoking weed and doin beer bongs while debating how cheesy poofs are the gateway to an enlightened existence? Kind of sucks when people make generalizations based on an incorrect stereotype doesn't it?

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You keep describing me to a T, then try to lecture to me how it is or is not. I:

- dropped out
- ran away to teh military when I was 17
- hated it when I was in
- got out as soon as I could
- earned a degree by entering college 10 years after I got out

Dude, I was you in many ways. I did't stay in that long, let me guess, you're married and have kids so you couldn't take the chance of exiting and trying the civilian world; am I right? I'm sure I am, although you really played with the idea of exiting, so instead you enlisted in college classes so when next reenlistment came up you's be ready to get out. Am I nailing this? I think so. You didn't refer to reenlisting after 10 years, you stated you would get out. Hell, you're 1/2 way to 20 and the great, well-deserved retirement, but it sucks so fucking bad you can't see being a lifer. THIS IS THE OLDEST BROKEN RECORD IN THE WORLD, I UNDERSTAND. BTW, best of luck to you with your goals.

You were in no way ever me, let's look at your life vs. mine shall we?

Dropped out, sorry no, as mentioned in a previous post I graduated with distinct honors at the top of my class and my test scores could have gotten me the college I wanted.

Ran away to enlist at 17, I did enlist at 17 but not as a runaway, my dad couldn't have been more proud to see me volunteer to serve my country. My home life was great by the way I have wonderful parents. I enlisted because whether you choose to believe it or not, wanted to serve my country, nothign else, my grades were good, my home life was pristine, my college would have been paid for. Sense of duty, that's it, i needed a good challenge too

Hated it, sorry I love my job, I have the coolest job in the world and the best team mates i could wish for.

Getting out quick, nope already re-upped a few years back, did four my first enlistment, am working on five for my second. Had a few more goals to accomplish so I stayed in.

10 years later for a degree, nope sorry, I will most likely be around the halfway point on my bachelor degree whe I ETS and it will take me far less than ten years of school to get that masters, I guarantee you this. Some of us work faster, what can I say.

Let's see married with children, nope sorry, unmarried, have a wonderful girlfriend who understands I won't marry until after I get out. Didn't re-up because I was unprepared to get out, there were other things I wished to accomplish, all of which I have, I have been totally successful in my military career thus far, and I am conifdent I will continue to be. So as for nailing this, you could not have been further from it, you in no way described me, I enlisted to serve my country, the minute I set foot in a recruiters office I said I would be Special Forces and look where i am today, 3 years on an SF team 2 trips to Iraq, numerous commendations including a Bronze star, will be gtting looked at for SFC in a few months(in 7 years that's not too shabby). I'm sorry if you failed to meet many of yor goals but please don't project your failures onto me. I am leading a very successful life regardless of the fact that you feel the only way to do that is get a degree QUICK and make as much money as Bill Gates, remember its what you make of it.

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No, you took the easy way out like me. Intellectually, you are likely a way below me or the average college grad. I'm sure you will do well and pass up a lot of us as you get educated, but that is hypothetical. I had to get pissed too in order to get the motivation to work and attend college 9-12 credits for 6 fucking years. I still am not doing well financially, but I have things distracting me.

You didn't opt to fight for your country, you enlisted during the Clinton years, so you just went in cause life sucked outside, now you justafyably want more, am I right? Please, no sanctmonious flag waving.

and you know I am below you intellectually how? That's a pretty harsh attack there. And are you trying to make me sorry for your situation, you don't need to justify to me why it took you so long to finish college, if you had to support a family while studying, good for you, I don't measure a man by his education, but someone who can care for those who rely on them gets much praise in my book.

Now again you claim to know exactly why I enlisted, even though it was during the Clinton years, as I mentioned before, college, grades, home life, couldn't have been better. I wanted to be a soldier, i dreamed about it since I was little, my father served and he inspired me. You seem to talk as if no one in the military is a true patriot who wants to serve merely someone hiding from the real world(a generalization never claimed it to be true). I'm sorry if you weren't Auddie Murphy, but don't use that as a reason to call the rest of us poor human beings. And as for the Clinton year part, you are serving regardless of whether it be in combat or not, although I hold combat in hgher regards, but when I enlisted I wished daily for a war to break out so I could prove my worth as a warrior.Sorry to wave flags, but it's true.

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As you look into your crystal ball, let me know the winners of the next 10 superbowls and see if they cover the spread or not. You sound very young by that assertion, can you at 20 something say that your life will only be less exciting and will not = your life to this point? That would make me depressed to think that.

Why do I feel this to be true, because I love one thing more than anything else in this world, combat. and no I am not some mindless murderer, ask anyone in these forums who has gotten to know me I'm the most friendly outgoing person you will ever meet. But I truly enjoy engaging the enemy in combat, I love it more than anything else. And you know what, I will be depressed when I get out, honestly I want to stay in, it chokes me up thinking that in a few short years I will have seen the last of my firefights, and will have stood next to my team mates for the last time as they are the greatest men I have ever met in my life. But I want to raise a family, and not have them worry about whether or not daddy will come home. I wish to give them a priviliged life, and that is going to require a college degree, that is why I am getting out. No other reason besides that.

One last thing Id like to point out, you speak of college grads, intellects, and the type as if they are better people. Like yourself, but how many history books are you in? Will you be remembered someday? My team, the group of non-intellectuals you speak of, are in countless history books, we will be remembered years from now as heros. And maybe at the bottom of the page they'll mention that during a time when the US was at war there were those who ran away from home joined the military, got out after not accomplishing much, took longer than most "18 YO dummies" to get a degree and years later still doesn't make much income. But I doubt it.

Hey you said it all yourself. Good luck

And BTW, you can't use spelling and grammar as an argument as to my IQ or intellect, your typing has proved the same of you yet you brush it off as beinga "lazy finger" if I recall correctly, well then on that note, I have digital turrets, my digits(fingers in case any soldiers are reading) have outbursts and type whatever they'd like. Hey I can make excuses too

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[GQ_jumper 4]

Wouldn't you think he (Bush) should have delayed deployment until the war machine was up to speed. No. Fuck the troops( the little guy). I'm all w/ you guys putting your lives on the line. It's this adminstration I have the beef w/. Stay safe

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my personal opinion was that the war machine was more than ready and we should've acted sooner, less time for enemy forces to dig in. just my opinion though, I'm far from bein a General

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[DaVinci 0]

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OK, what claims and where do I not back them up? You're doing the same unless you state the claims by example and then explain how they're not backed.


Remember, saying I think or I don;t think is an opinion

Or a cheap way to build an out in case you can't back up anything you say. Just adding "I think" is not a blanket permission to spout wazzo ideas and get to act like they mean anything.

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GI's are amongst the lowest paid, so that is a very quick start to provide evidece that GI's aren't the smartest bunch around,

One of the oldest fallacies in the book. ARGUMENT FROM ANALOGY or FALSE ANALOGY. An unsound form of inductive argument in which an argument is based completely or relies heavily on analogy to prove its point.

Going to school like you claim to have done (but claim to be blue collar at the same time) would mean you know that.

[GQ_jumper 4]

(BTW I'm glad you were not one of the people negatively impacted by the shortages!)

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In actuality armor does little if anything anymore, I've seen some of the weapons being used against our most advanced armor and they all defeat it. It's more of a safety blanket, I convinced myself to fight like it's not there, like any one of those round could be the one that does me in, and as I mentioned before I think the more agressive posture has done more to keep me alive than anything else. Sorry to spout off trying to talk myself up like a super-hero badass, it's just the best opinion i could think of.

I think there were shortcomings on all sides though, when it came to this particular piece of equipment. And I agree with you when you hope someday we won't have to worry about whether or not we have the best equipment. As long as I don't have to carry it, it gets heavy. And I'm a wuss

night gentlemen

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[DaVinci 0]

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I wrote:

Granted they don't try to disconnect your total memory, but they want to suppress the part of your mind that you use to reason.


They don't want young troops to reason, but to follow diections, PERIOD. What I wrote is true.

NO IT IS NOT. Again you think just because YOU think you were "Brainwashed" does not mean that everyone was. The main people I know with that attitude are a.) people who did not serve. b.) people who didn't get what they wanted c.) were kicked out.

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I wrote:

Dummies, yep, but hell, mist 18YO kids are, donlt you think? Show examples of intelligent kids other than child prodogies. Military or not, 18 YO kids are dummies, can you reject that?


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Nice *attempt* at a backpeddle

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Why the fuck would I backpedal? I'm not going to call 18YO kids and/or young GI's a bunch of ass-monkeys as I don't want to offend, but if someone else did I wouldn't disagree

You did call them that, and you went on to claim the average student is smarter.

Nice try to rewrite what you wrote. Ya know whats really funny? Kerry did the same thing you did, and you tried to defend him...And while defending him, you did the same thing

[DaVinci 0]

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I was in the AF, which took the highest ASVAB scores then still does to my knowledge, and I believe guys would go in for lack of somethung better to do, as a rule. I keep in touch with some of my ex-military buddies and some are very successful and bright. They all wish they would have avoided the military and go right to college tho, just like me.

That explains a lot. You didn't get what you wanted out of it and feel it was a waste. So, it must be a waste for everyone else, and they just might be too stupid to know it....But you claim they will once the brainwashing wears off in a few years.

[mnealtx 0]

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It's easy to see why the military generally votes Republican. Republican = more work = job security. Plus, Republicans are sure to give plenty of money to their defense contractor cronies, with the side benefit of cool new toys for the troops.

Blues,
Dave

Which, of course, is why some portions of the military have to be on food stamps and WIC to make ends meet, because of all that work, right?

There's reasons why the military tends toward the conservative side... the amount of money they're getting paid *isn't* one of them.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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It's easy to see why the military generally votes Republican. Republican = more work = job security. Plus, Republicans are sure to give plenty of money to their defense contractor cronies, with the side benefit of cool new toys for the troops.

Blues,
Dave

Yeah. Like all the body/truck armor they DIDN'T have when first deployed

Too bad Kerry voted against that $87B after he voted for it, huh?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[akarunway 1]

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It's easy to see why the military generally votes Republican. Republican = more work = job security. Plus, Republicans are sure to give plenty of money to their defense contractor cronies, with the side benefit of cool new toys for the troops.

Blues,
Dave

Yeah. Like all the body/truck armor they DIDN'T have when first deployed

Too bad Kerry voted against that $87B after he voted for it, huh?

Yeah bro it's fucked up all the way around. And for the record I was for Bush in the beginning

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[mnealtx 0]

7 years in, Bronze Star and up for SFC.... and we can scuttle all that with a few thong pics...

Seriously, dude... congrats on your achievements and thanks for your service.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GQ_jumper 4]

7 years in, Bronze Star and up for SFC.... and we can scuttle all that with a few thong pics...

Seriously, dude... congrats on your achievements and thanks for your service.

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I knew those pics would come back to haunt me someday, good thing I'm not running for office huh?!?!

Thank you though, I appreciate it.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[GQ_jumper 4]

Sorry to spout off trying to talk myself up like a super-hero badass, it's just the best opinion i could think of.
***

That was supposed to be example, sorry guess I was typng a little too late at night, we all know better anyways than to think I'm a badass

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Your funny.

My unit: 2 Officers and 25 enlisted.

12 Bachelors
10 Associates
1 Doctorate (enlisted! DOO)

2 Harvard grads (Enlisted again, damn!)
Texas A&M
AU
Duke
and many other locals.

Only 1 joined because the Civilian life sucked (I went and asked after reading your post), 8 joined for the college money, 1 for the AMED program (could lump that in to college money too I guess). 7 for the adventure and 6 for the Duty Honor and Country cause. 4 for Family reasons (trust fund being 2 of them, no service no money, they both re-enlisted last year).

Only 4 enlisted without at least an associates. Take away the two Officers and that leaves 21 enlisted with college when they joined.

So, they had a 2 year degree upon enlistment, are they smart for the degree or dumb for enlisting?

Matt how would you know any better than the rest of the people that disagree with you and GQ?

I mean geez, don't you know that chairborne rangers knows more than all the rest of the Veterans in this country?

BTW wtg GQ! congrats on being up for E7 in such a short time, sure beats mopping floors huh?

[rehmwa 2]

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I was sat at a table wth 2 O6's, an O5 and an O4

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My friend you are a far braver man than myself, I won't hesitate to jump into a firefight but I will chew my arm off to avoid sitting at a table like that

take a tour in DC, it's old hat

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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[rehmwa 2]

Yep - military people are below average.

I guess all those companies that actively recruit ex-enlisted and ex-officers into their ranks at much higher rates than college grads are wrong. I'm assuming that my own company which has a much higher retention, promotion and success rate with employees hired from the military over those from the private sector is part of some conspiracy.

This trend actually surprised me greatly, my original assumption was that the military is so big, that it would actually just be reflective of the normal population with no apparent differences. But nearly everywhere I look, those with military backgrounds seems to be more successful than those that don't have it.

But that might just be Fortune 100 companies, not the real world. I'm sure non-military types do just fine at Starbucks.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Royd 0]

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Having a LAZY finger like me, and typing quickly and being too LAZY to proff it is quite diff than not understanding basic syntax and having a semi-complex glossary in your head.

I don't want to let you out by making this a spelling contest, I want to discuss the merits.

Ever since I started using myt laptop I use a semicolon instead of an apostrophe, write teh, tehy and all kinds of shit. I'm writing a screenplay and really enjoy english, so if I err it's because I'm LAZY.

Pretty well explains a whole lot about your posts, and your attitude toward those who go the extra mile to make a good living.

[juanesky 0]

Thnaks for quoting that, I had the same opinion a long while back.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[livendive 8]

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It's easy to see why the military generally votes Republican. Republican = more work = job security. Plus, Republicans are sure to give plenty of money to their defense contractor cronies, with the side benefit of cool new toys for the troops.

Which, of course, is why some portions of the military have to be on food stamps and WIC to make ends meet, because of all that work, right?

There's reasons why the military tends toward the conservative side... the amount of money they're getting paid *isn't* one of them.

And I never implied it was. The money that Republicans like to throw at the military is earmarked for contracting corporations, not the troops themselves. Actually, I'd say that the Democrats are guilty of the same charge, just to a lesser extent.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

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It's easy to see why the military generally votes Republican. Republican = more work = job security. Plus, Republicans are sure to give plenty of money to their defense contractor cronies, with the side benefit of cool new toys for the troops.

Which, of course, is why some portions of the military have to be on food stamps and WIC to make ends meet, because of all that work, right?

There's reasons why the military tends toward the conservative side... the amount of money they're getting paid *isn't* one of them.

And I never implied it was. The money that Republicans like to throw at the military is earmarked for contracting corporations, not the troops themselves. Actually, I'd say that the Democrats are guilty of the same charge, just to a lesser extent.

Blues,
Dave

Taking your quote as fact, I would expect the generals to vote Republican, since they are the ones that have more influence on the development and fielding of equipment. The troop in the field wouldn't have that "advantage", and so it's a tossup as to which way they would vote, only given the info in your quote.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[livendive 8]

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Again I point back to the prior administration and say why is it that more than an entire decade passed between when the Army first started seeing body armor with the plates and when the last soldiers finally had them. More of that time passed under Clinton than under Bush. But hey with Clinton we had a smaller deficit, so who cares about the soldiers body-armor right? People compalin about Bush over spending and then at the same time yell at him for not getting us the equipment we need.

Under Clinton, you didn't need the body armor quite so much because he wasn't sending you into harm's way en masse.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 3,120]

A lot of people are reading some pretty complex reasoning into this.

It's a basic fact of life that people want to believe what they are doing is good. Hence, nuclear power plant operators generally support nuclear power as a clean/safe way to generate electricity. Doctors think they are making a real difference in the lives of their patients (at least sometimes!) Public defenders believe they are standing up for people's rights; DA's believe they are protecting society from criminals.

Soldiers are no different. A lot of military folks I know believe that what they are doing in Iraq is good. If the military action they are part of in Iraq is good, then the war is good, and they support the war (and they support politicians who do.) If someone says "the war is a fiasco" it's easy to project that onto soldiers themselves, and indeed many republicans do just this to try to vilify democrats. (i.e. if you don't support the war you hate the troops.)

If a democratic congress/democratic president took us to war, and it was the republicans trying to end/limit/plan for the war, then troops in Iraq would have more of a tendency to vote democratic. Not because they believe in the democratic platform any more than they believe in the GOP one, but because they believe in the job they are doing in Iraq.

[mnealtx 0]

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Again I point back to the prior administration and say why is it that more than an entire decade passed between when the Army first started seeing body armor with the plates and when the last soldiers finally had them. More of that time passed under Clinton than under Bush. But hey with Clinton we had a smaller deficit, so who cares about the soldiers body-armor right? People compalin about Bush over spending and then at the same time yell at him for not getting us the equipment we need.

Under Clinton, you didn't need the body armor quite so much because he wasn't sending you into harm's way en masse.

Blues,
Dave

I'll make sure to pass that along to the families of SFC Shughart and MSG Gordon, among others.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[livendive 8]

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Again I point back to the prior administration and say why is it that more than an entire decade passed between when the Army first started seeing body armor with the plates and when the last soldiers finally had them. More of that time passed under Clinton than under Bush. But hey with Clinton we had a smaller deficit, so who cares about the soldiers body-armor right? People compalin about Bush over spending and then at the same time yell at him for not getting us the equipment we need.

Under Clinton, you didn't need the body armor quite so much because he wasn't sending you into harm's way en masse.

Blues,
Dave

I'll make sure to pass that along to the families of SFC Shughart and MSG Gordon, among others.

I believe I included the phrase "en masse". No doubt Clinton sent some into harm's way, but not on the scale we've seen in Iraq, and we also didn't have so many casualties.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[GQ_jumper 4]

I believe I included the phrase "en masse". No doubt Clinton sent some into harm's way, but not on the scale we've seen in Iraq, and we also didn't have so many casualties.

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So are you implying that we don't need to be readily equipped unless the Pres. intends to send us to war, do you see that as a valid excuse for Clinton not hustling to get us body armor when it was first available?

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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