organic food

[billvon 3,118]

> Bill you do know there is rBST in all milk don't you?

Well, no. rBST is recombinant bovine somatotropin; a synthetic version of BST (which _is_ naturally occurring in cows.) Organic milk has no rBST, just the BST that the cow made.

>It is naturally occurring and it's leavels are undetectable.

Right - in cows that have not been treated with rBST. Hence the "rBGH free" label. (For everyone else - rBST and rBGH are the same thing.)

>I'll use BT corn for example. Corn can now be raised with NO
>insecticides because of the implanted defense in the plant protecting it
>from corn boars and root worms as well as several other insects.

Well, that's one kind of GMO crop. Roundup-resistant corn allows farmers to use an herbicide to kill everything _but_ the corn (i.e. weeds.) Thus, some GMO's end up using more pesticides/herbicides because they can better tolerate them.

The GMO debate can be divided into two areas:

1) Health. To make BT corn, scientists take a bacterium (bacillus thuringiensis) and remove its DNA. They then isolate the parts they want, add some stuff to the remainder (promoter and marker genes) and embed these in the corn's DNA. The corn then replicates it as it grows, and the DNA makes proteins as usual. The good proteins (i.e. those that confer resistance to Roundup, or better resistance to pests) are expressed, and that's why farmers use them. Problem is that other proteins from the bacteria are expressed as well. We're not really sure what they do, but they don't _seem_ to cause any problems - but then again, we don't understand what most proteins in corn do anyway.

Might proteins that bacteria express cause problems for people in the long term? No one's seen any problems yet, but we don't know for sure. Might the altered bacterial DNA present in the corn affect _our_ gut bacteria, since bacteria share DNA very readily? Again, we don't know if that may happen over the long term. Might be a good thing to find out.

2) Corn cross-pollinates quite readily. Farmers with farms nearby GMO farms have been sued because the genetic markers have shown up in their (organic) corn - and Monsanto went after them, claiming they didn't pay for the GMO seed! What's happening is that the pollen of the GMO corn is contaminating the other farmer's field. Which could be a very big deal if there _does_ turn out to be a problem, because the markers don't always transfer with the bacterial DNA during meiosis. That means if someone does have a problem with GMO corn there will be no way to know which corn might be a health risk for him, even if you test it.

All that doesn't mean that GMO's are deadly or evil. But I think there needs to be a lot more research done before we feed them to our kids - and there needs to be labeling and testing requirements imposed by the FDA on GMO foods offered for public consumption. GMO's are, however, a good way to grow crops cheaply for ethanol, cattle feed and heavily processed foods. (i.e. high fructose corn syrup) - as long as care is taken to prevent cross-pollination and contamination of other crops.

[kelpdiver 2]

the price premium for "organic," a term that I believe is still open to abuse, is pretty high. Hard to swallow, in fact, when we're talking 5-6$/lb for fruit.

But whether or not it shows up in detectable chemical residedue, I think we do better choosing the less processed food items wherever we can. And often it tastes better - I prefer raw apple juice with all the sediment over anything 'flash' pasteurized and filtered. Some of the possible differences in quality of living are hard to quantify.

BTW, I'm not sure I'd view government food agencies as fully objective in an analysis of small scale organic food production.

[quack 0]

Quote

the price premium for "organic," a term that I believe is still open to abuse, is pretty high. Hard to swallow, in fact, when we're talking 5-6$/lb for fruit.

But whether or not it shows up in detectable chemical residedue, I think we do better choosing the less processed food items wherever we can. And often it tastes better - I prefer raw apple juice with all the sediment over anything 'flash' pasteurized and filtered. Some of the possible differences in quality of living are hard to quantify.

BTW, I'm not sure I'd view government food agencies as fully objective in an analysis of small scale organic food production.

1. Organic doesn't mean it isn't pasteurized. And many apples that fall on the ground end up as juicers. This can lead to contamination with pathogenic bacteria, which pasteurization would take care of. Something to keep in mind when choosing your apple juice, organic or not.

2. Why would the government food agencies not be fully objective? What bias would they have with respect to small-scale organic food production?

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[philh 0]

"it tends to be, but not because it is more nutricious. It tends to be better for you because it has less pesticides and chemicals in it. "
well I think the studies I listed above show thats eithe not true or irrelelvant as the carcinogenic difference is either zero or negligible.

As regards to the comment
"I definitely live by the theory that the less un-natural things I put in my body the better. "

This is something I dont understand at all. Ricin is naturally occuring but incredibly deadly. Untreated water can kill. I think its a mistake to say natural = good , unnatural = bad. This is the common theme I hear so often that i think organic food producers latch on to.

"I will say this; I rarely get sick. The last time I had so much as a common cold was more than 4 years ago . I attribute that, be it accurately or not, to an overall healthy lifestyle that includes many organic foods. "

I cant remember who said it, but its a great quote"the plural of anecdote is not data". The fact you havent had a cold and eat organic food is irrelevant. If a controlled double blind trial has been done with a control group eating organic food and another group eating conventional food and the control group got less colds , then we might be able to conclude something. Without that we can conclude nothing.

Bilvon, re your example of coke, I dont think this is relevant. Coke is a very different substance to water. You are not comparing like with like. Organic carrots versus non organic carrots is a very different comparsion. You seem to be ignoring the scientific data, let me quote you again the study that was reported in New Scentists last week, so this is the most up to date data there is .
"A study comparing wheat grown organically and conventionally found that chemically they were virtually indistinguishable. "
If they are chemically the same how is one going to be better fo you than the other?

Let me quote yet another peer reviewed studies conclusion, this from the Nutritional Research Review
"environmental contaminants are equally present in foods of both origins. With regard to other food hazards, such as natural chemicals, microbial pathogens and mycotoxins, no clear conclusions can be drawn, although several interesting points can be highlighted. It is difficult, therefore, to weigh the risks, but what should be made clear to consumers is that ‘organic’ does not equal ‘safe’. If producers adopt proper agricultural practices and consumers maintain hygienic conditions, risks associated with food contaminants can be minimised, regardless of the food’s organic or conventional origin."

[PLFXpert 0]

You misquoted me.

Quote

"I definitely live by the theory that the less un-natural things I put in my body the better. "

This is something I dont understand at all. Ricin is naturally occuring but incredibly deadly

Oh dear. B/c one decides to put as many natural things into his/her body as possible does NOT mean they'd pop some ricin simply b/c it is natural.

By that logic, I can assume those who enjoy processed foods must also snort cocaine b/c it is also processed?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Don't be...b/c I would have bet $500 that what I said wasn't necessarily incorrect. I once had what was described to me by a doctor as a virus and he prescribed me an antibiotic. Of course, he prescribed me something else too, and I forget what now; probably an anti-viral.

Not necessarily, there are about a half dozen virusses treatable by antibiotics. generally, antibiotics do nothing against a viral infections.

There really are 21 antiviral drugs, the far mjority deal with Herpes, HIV and Hepatitis. Only 2 or 3 deal with influenza.

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

Not necessarily, there are about a half dozen virusses treatable by antibiotics.

Yes!

<---puts one point back in "I was right!" column.

The "probably an anti-viral" comment was joking, as mentioned I have no clue what the other thing was he prescribed me--kinda scary to think I blindly trusted a doctor who prescribed me three things total and I only remember that one was an antibiotic and no clue what the others were. Oh well. It worked and look at me now. Just teasing.

Whatever I had was an ear/nose/throat thing and was pretty severe. It wasn't the flu, as that's an easy word to remember. I'd never before or since had anything like it, thank goodness.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[quack 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't be...b/c I would have bet $500 that what I said wasn't necessarily incorrect. I once had what was described to me by a doctor as a virus and he prescribed me an antibiotic. Of course, he prescribed me something else too, and I forget what now; probably an anti-viral.

Not necessarily, there are about a half dozen virusses treatable by antibiotics. generally, antibiotics do nothing against a viral infections.



There really are 21 antiviral drugs, the far mjority deal with Herpes, HIV and Hepatitis. Only 2 or 3 deal with influenza.

It's not generally. Antibiotics do nothing to viruses. Which viruses are there claims for antibiotic treatment being effective?

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

It's not generally. Antibiotics do nothing to viruses. Which viruses are there claims for antibiotic treatment being effective?

You are right!

The site I had read that on used antibiotics to refer to any infection fighting medicine. Written by a Dr. too

My bad, back to the original point, there are indeed no viruses treatable with antibiotics.

[PLFXpert 0]

Rats!

<---grudgingly moves point back to the "I was wrong!" column.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[misskriss 0]

Quote

But that misconception is one reason parents are always demanding (and, sadly, often getting) antibiotics for their kid's runny noses.

That was the case when my teenagers were little. As a new mom I would take them to the doctor for every sniffle, fever, cough, gasp, etc. Most of the time they were prescribed antibiotics lots of times, "just in case." My 11 month old has been sick twice. Last time he had a fever I waited it out.. (following guidelines for fevers in older babies ) and I treated his symptoms. He was better in a several days time. I did put in a call to the nurse when he developed a rash after the fever went away and she said it was probably viral. It was and he was fine. He hasn't been on antibiotics yet(thankfully) which is a far cry from what it used to be in my own experience.

As far as organic food goes, I buy it whenever I can. It's just so much more expensive.
I've spent $70 on one bag of groceries at Whole Foods.

[wmw999 2,588]

Sometimes doctors can really overdo it. My son is nearly 23 (how time flies), but he generally only had antibiotics for ear infections. Magic for that. Of course, it wouldn't have dawned on me to take him to the doctor for colds, etc.

But one time he did have a really, really bad cold, and I wanted a prescription for a good cough medicine. His regular dr. was out. He came out of that appointment with 7 different prescriptions. Cough medicine, decongestant, antihistamine, steroid nose spray, inhaler, antibiotic, and one other thing. Holy simoleons -- no wonder people expect medicine to do everything for them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

I've spent $70 on one bag of groceries at Whole Foods.

Indeed. That figure doesn't even come close to what I spend for just Billy and I (and our animals, of course) on weekly groceries & staples.

I had to do some serious budget re-working when I finally put my foot down after moving in with Billy and said "I can't take all this spagetti & canned veggies anymore."

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[quack 0]

It's just so much more expensive.
I've spent $70 on one bag of groceries at Whole Foods.

[jumpinfarmer 0]

Quote

>
Well, that's one kind of GMO crop. Roundup-resistant corn allows farmers to use an herbicide to kill everything _but_ the corn (i.e. weeds.) Thus, some GMO's end up using more pesticides/herbicides because they can better tolerate them.

Not exactly. Roundup resistance allows for reduced herbicide use because one chemical (glyphosate) can be used to controle all the weeds in the crop. Previously several differant herbicides often had to be used, along with mechanical cultivation which burns up fuel, and opens the soil to erosian and evaporation of moisture in dry areas. I grow both Roundup and conventional corn depending on the weed history on differant fields. It is hard to explain this to people who have little if any knowledge of agriculture..

2) Corn cross-pollinates quite readily. Farmers with farms nearby GMO farms have been sued because the genetic markers have shown up in their (organic) corn - and Monsanto went after them, claiming they didn't pay for the GMO seed! What's happening is that the pollen of the GMO corn is contaminating the other farmer's field. Which could be a very big deal if there _does_ turn out to be a problem, because the markers don't always transfer with the bacterial DNA during meiosis. That means if someone does have a problem with GMO corn there will be no way to know which corn might be a health risk for him, even if you test it.

Actually it is normally the other way around with the organic producer sueing the conventional grower because of contamination. A lot has been learned in the last 10 years about this topic.

]

• Quote

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

1. Organic doesn't mean it isn't pasteurized. And many apples that fall on the ground end up as juicers. This can lead to contamination with pathogenic bacteria, which pasteurization would take care of. Something to keep in mind when choosing your apple juice, organic or not.

As I discussed in the meat wars, taste is my top priority. I don't believe apple juice should be homogenized.

Quote

2. Why would the government food agencies not be fully objective? What bias would they have with respect to small-scale organic food production?

They regulate the mass production of food. It would be a bit odd for them to promote avoiding 98% of what is being delivered.

[philh 0]

What about treated water versus non treated water?

My point is not that you would ingest ricin, but to demonstrate that whether something is natural or artificial tells us nothing as to its safety. I certainly dont suggest that because something is processed it is better for you, Just because I dont believe natural =safer/better , doesnt mean I do believe artificial = safer, better. My point is that there is no necessary connection. Im sure there are many examples on natural things that are better than there artfificial counterparts and vice versa, it all proves nothing. The natural =better assumtion is a misconception that seems to me to be based on little if any actual evidence.

[quack 0]

Quote

Quote

1. Organic doesn't mean it isn't pasteurized. And many apples that fall on the ground end up as juicers. This can lead to contamination with pathogenic bacteria, which pasteurization would take care of. Something to keep in mind when choosing your apple juice, organic or not.

As I discussed in the meat wars, taste is my top priority. I don't believe apple juice should be homogenized.

Quote

2. Why would the government food agencies not be fully objective? What bias would they have with respect to small-scale organic food production?

They regulate the mass production of food. It would be a bit odd for them to promote avoiding 98% of what is being delivered.

OK, taste means a lot (I'm sure you meant pasteurized, not homogenized). Safety of the product should mean even more. What I was getting at was that to avoid these situations, the product should be pasteurized.

As for the governments, they regulate all kinds of foods and don't particularly care what definition it falls under. These agencies are providing information for organic production / processing no differently than for conventional production / processing. Here are some links from Canada, the USDA, and just to get out of North America, New Zealand. Small producers / processors can also get exemptions from certification, so it's not like the governments are trying to discourage organic systems.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[quack 0]

All that doesn't mean that GMO's are deadly or evil. But I think there needs to be a lot more research done before we feed them to our kids - and there needs to be labeling and testing requirements imposed by the FDA on GMO foods offered for public consumption. GMO's are, however, a good way to grow crops cheaply for ethanol, cattle feed and heavily processed foods. (i.e. high fructose corn syrup) - as long as care is taken to prevent cross-pollination and contamination of other crops.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

OK, taste means a lot (I'm sure you meant pasteurized, not homogenized).

Do you have a reading issue? That's the second time you've been sure I meant something entirely different than what I said. Before you leaped to the presumption I equate organic with non pasteurized.

Stop worrying - I know what these words mean.

I prefer the apple juice to be unfiltered. There may be crud at the bottom, but I don't care. (I also don't want my wine filtered or fined for the similar reasons)

[quack 0]

Quote

Do you have a reading issue?

No.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms