Andy9o8 3 #26 October 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou are confusing insurgents with terrorists. So, now we have four "classes": 1. those covered under the Geneva Convention 2. Criminals 3. Insurgents 4. terrorists Who gets to decide who is which and what the rules are for each? Exactly. As I've already said in dozens of previous posts, they're either in Category 1 or in Category 2, or both. Categories 3 and 4 are not independent categories; they are either subsets of #1 or of #2. Combatants in #1 are protcted by the GC. Accused criminal defendants in #2 are entitled to due process of law. There is no convenient little third category. Soldiers who abuse prisoners of war are war criminals. Cops who abuse criminal defendants are criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #27 October 27, 2006 Does anyone else find it odd that VP Cheney seems to think he knows more than Sen. John McCain about what constitutes torture? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #28 October 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI agree that waterboarding and any other aggressive interrogation technics should not be performed on the soldiers of another country when that country is a signer of the Geneva Convention and has also agreed not to do the same to US Soldiers. I don't have a problem with using aggressive tactics on terrorist organizations who cut off the heads of our soldiers and drag their naked bodies through the streets. So it's OK to torture criminals. Nice to know where you stand. It's OK to hang war criminals and illegal combatants, just so you know where I stand. That's where civilized countries have stood in major conflicts before this myopic stupor descended upon the intelligensia. A guy who robs a 7-11 is a criminal, a guy who plants bombs, kidnaps and beheads innocents, hides among civilians with weapons to attack our troops and innocent civillians is not merely a criminal, he's an illegal combatant and when caught, waterboarding should be the least of their worries.We shouldn't be in their country to start / What would you do if your soveiegn land was invaded over coporate dollars. I'd start cutting some fuckin heads odd too!I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #29 October 27, 2006 Quote It's OK to hang war criminals and illegal combatants. so what's an illegal combatant who is not already a crminal? somone who forgot to renew is combatting permit? Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #30 October 27, 2006 Quote What would you do if your soveiegn land was invaded over coporate dollars. Play the bagpipes until they leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #31 October 27, 2006 QuoteQuote What would you do if your soveiegn land was invaded over coporate dollars. Play the bagpipes until they leave. Advantage: Dorbie "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #32 October 27, 2006 QuoteDoes anyone else find it odd that VP Cheney seems to think he knows more than Sen. John McCain about what constitutes torture? I'm sure if McCain were to call Dick out, Dick would hide in a shell. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #33 October 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI agree that waterboarding and any other aggressive interrogation technics should not be performed on the soldiers of another country when that country is a signer of the Geneva Convention and has also agreed not to do the same to US Soldiers. I don't have a problem with using aggressive tactics on terrorist organizations who cut off the heads of our soldiers and drag their naked bodies through the streets. So it's OK to torture criminals. Nice to know where you stand. Not what I said. Try again. So you think it was just fine for the Nazis to torture members of the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Polish and French resistance. OK, nice to know how you feel about those who helped us during WWII.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #34 October 27, 2006 QuoteThe enemy is always sub-human Or "untermenschen", one might say... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #35 October 27, 2006 The International Convention against Torture prevents torture of any persons, irrespective of who they are or under what circumstances they're held. There is no need for them to be classified as any specific kind of detainee and there is no way to loose the protection of the convention – it covers EVERYONE. Under that convention you cannot torture ANY person. ANY torture of ANY person is considered to be a "crime against humanity" and as such ANY court in ANY country where the convention has been given national authority has the power to hear a case against the accused. You can be a "criminal" a "terrorist" an "insurgent" the "enemy" a "sand nigger", "spick", "wop" or a "jew"; the Geneva Convention may apply or it may not, it simply doesn't matter what kind, class, type or colour you are - THE CONVENTION COVERS YOU. It also applies to the conduct of everyone in the world, regardless of who they are, where they are, what orders they act under or what country they are from; it even covers Heads of State and their Deputies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #36 October 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI agree that waterboarding and any other aggressive interrogation technics should not be performed on the soldiers of another country when that country is a signer of the Geneva Convention and has also agreed not to do the same to US Soldiers. I don't have a problem with using aggressive tactics on terrorist organizations who cut off the heads of our soldiers and drag their naked bodies through the streets. So it's OK to torture criminals. Nice to know where you stand. Not what I said. Try again. So you think it was just fine for the Nazis to torture members of the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Polish and French resistance. OK, nice to know how you feel about those who helped us during WWII. Your ability to misunderstand is apperently an Art or it's just intentional. Absolutely amazing!! I expect it from some, but not from you. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #37 October 27, 2006 QuoteAnd I wonder WHY they want to kill us? I believe because of mentality like yours Thank-you, I'll accept that as a Personal Attack. They attacked us long before we did any waterboarding. Perhaps getting your facts straight before responding would be beneficial in the future. Or not if that suits you. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #38 October 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI agree that waterboarding and any other aggressive interrogation technics should not be performed on the soldiers of another country when that country is a signer of the Geneva Convention and has also agreed not to do the same to US Soldiers. I don't have a problem with using aggressive tactics on terrorist organizations who cut off the heads of our soldiers and drag their naked bodies through the streets. So it's OK to torture criminals. Nice to know where you stand. Not what I said. Try again. So you think it was just fine for the Nazis to torture members of the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Polish and French resistance. OK, nice to know how you feel about those who helped us during WWII. Your ability to misunderstand is apperently an Art or it's just intentional. Absolutely amazing!! I expect it from some, but not from you. - Oh, I understand very well. You think torture is OK when your side does it, but not when the other side does it. Explain carefully how Iraqis fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 2006 are different from Norwegians fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 1944. Explain carefully how international law sanctions torture by the USA but not by others.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #39 October 28, 2006 QuoteAnd I wonder WHY they want to kill us? I believe because of mentality like yoursNo, they want to kill you because you refuse to read the Quran, bow to Mecca five times a day, make our women cover up from head to toe, and beat them half to death if they don't. In their world, the liberals would be the first to go. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #40 October 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd I wonder WHY they want to kill us? I believe because of mentality like yoursNo, they want to kill you because you refuse to read the Quran, bow to Mecca five times a day, make our women cover up from head to toe, and beat them half to death if they don't. In their world, the liberals would be the first to go. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You seriously need to read the history of the US governments involvement with Bin Laden and others like him. At one time they were herald as "Freedom Fighters" and given training and weapons during the Afghan/Russian war. After the US and Russia kissed and made up the freedom fighters were abandon and immediatly labled as terrorist as Russia continued to wage war on them. There are alot of reasons why they are bitter towards the US government. That is but one. Truth is that they could actually care less about you or any other everyday joe on the street. Their target is the government and we are the avenue inwhich they use to conflict damage on the government. It will not stop untill the government comes to its senses and go to the table with these people and hash it out there. Untill then expect nothing but the worst. For every insurgent/terrorist killed there is 100 more inline to take his place. "War on Terror" is nothing more than a buzz word. Invading Iraq was the best thing Bush and Thugs could had done for Bin Laden as it only enraged others who stood on the fence and swayed them to his side. Most agreed that going into Afghanistan was the right thing to do but, to all but abandon that effort and to wage a war on what they view as a war on Islam only lit fire under their feet. Now there are far more against the US than there originally were on 9-11. Blame the Thugs in the Whitehouse for not staying the course in Afghanistan and getting Bin Laden. Bush and his Merry Band of Warmongers only made the world a far more dangerous place."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #41 October 28, 2006 A form of waterboarding was used on our own troops in training in the early 70's. I watched a movie of U.S. pilots being interrogated as part of their escape and evasion training. They were held down and a wet towel was held over their mouth and nose, while someone blew cigar smoke in their face. Before long they were completely broken. Scary stuff, even to watch....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #42 October 28, 2006 QuoteA form of waterboarding was used on our own troops in training in the early 70's. I watched a movie of U.S. pilots being interrogated as part of their escape and evasion training. They were held down and a wet towel was held over their mouth and nose, while someone blew cigar smoke in their face. Before long they were completely broken. Uh......I can neither confirm nor deny that Can I say suffocating SUCKS ASS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #43 October 28, 2006 QuoteYou seriously need to read the history of the US governments involvement with Bin Laden and others like him. At one time they were herald as "Freedom Fighters" and given training and weapons during the Afghan/Russian war. After the US and Russia kissed and made up the freedom fighters were abandon and immediatly labled as terrorist as Russia continued to wage war on them. It looks like you could benefit from a little reading up, too. Our people in Afghanistan had nothing to do with Bin Laden. We left Afghanistan when the Soviets pulled out, before we eased relations with the Soviets. Quote Their target is the government and we are the avenue inwhich they use to conflict damage on the government. It will not stop untill the government comes to its senses and go to the table with these people and hash it out there. Do you really think they are open to "hashing it out"? QuoteFor every insurgent/terrorist killed there is 100 more inline to take his place. CITE, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #44 October 28, 2006 QuoteA form of waterboarding was used on our own troops in training in the early 70's. I watched a movie of U.S. pilots being interrogated as part of their escape and evasion training. They were held down and a wet towel was held over their mouth and nose, while someone blew cigar smoke in their face. Before long they were completely broken. Scary stuff, even to watch....Steve1Read John's post to start w/. "In 1968, a US army officer was court martialled for helping to waterboard a prisoner in Vietnam. - Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006"I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #45 October 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI agree that waterboarding and any other aggressive interrogation technics should not be performed on the soldiers of another country when that country is a signer of the Geneva Convention and has also agreed not to do the same to US Soldiers. I don't have a problem with using aggressive tactics on terrorist organizations who cut off the heads of our soldiers and drag their naked bodies through the streets. So it's OK to torture criminals. Nice to know where you stand. Not what I said. Try again. So you think it was just fine for the Nazis to torture members of the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Polish and French resistance. OK, nice to know how you feel about those who helped us during WWII. Your ability to misunderstand is apperently an Art or it's just intentional. Absolutely amazing!! I expect it from some, but not from you. - Oh, I understand very well. You think torture is OK when your side does it, but not when the other side does it. Explain carefully how Iraqis fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 2006 are different from Norwegians fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 1944. Explain carefully how international law sanctions torture by the USA but not by others. Whoooosh.......................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #46 October 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd I wonder WHY they want to kill us? I believe because of mentality like yours Thank-you, I'll accept that as a Personal Attack. They attacked us long before we did any waterboarding. Perhaps getting your facts straight before responding would be beneficial in the future. Or not if that suits you. - I don't see it as anywhere near a PA. Rather, it is a reasonable (moderate, even) interpretation of the views you repeatedly express. If you are going to be it, own it!----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 October 28, 2006 QuoteAnd I wonder WHY they want to kill us? I believe because of mentality like yours Really... how many terrorists had been waterboarded before 9/11, that it forced them to attack us?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #48 October 28, 2006 Quote It will not stop untill the government comes to its senses and go to the table with these people and hash it out there. After all, hashing things out worked SO well for Daniel Pearl and Nicholas Berg...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #49 October 28, 2006 Quote Oh, I understand very well. You think torture is OK when your side does it, but not when the other side does it. Explain carefully how Iraqis fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 2006 are different from Norwegians fighting foreign invaders in their nation in 1944. Explain carefully how international law sanctions torture by the USA but not by others. Whoooosh.......................... Can't do it, can you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #50 October 28, 2006 Its not on the approved reading list.. hence its not applicable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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