Conservatives finally figure it out

[Lucky... 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061023/ap_on_re_us/tillman_brother_4

Pat Tillman's brother calls war illegal



The brother of NFL player-turned-Army Ranger Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan, has written a scathing indictment of the war in Iraq, calling it "an illegal invasion."

Kevin Tillman had remained silent since his brother's death in 2004, but in an article in the Web magazine Truthdig, he sharply criticizes the invasion of Iraq, the indefinite imprisonment of terrorism suspects and other events since the brothers enlisted together in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"Somehow, the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes," Kevin Tillman wrote.

"Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground," he wrote.

After playing for the Arizona State University Sun Devils, Pat Tillman was drafted by the Arizona Cardinals in 1998. He played with the team for four years. He was on the verge of signing another contract with the Cardinals in 2002 when he decided to join the Army instead.

The brothers, both ASU graduates, were initially sent to Iraq, then returned to the U.S. for Ranger training and later were sent to Afghanistan.

Pat Tillman, who played defensive back for the Arizona Cardinals, was killed by friendly fire near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border in April 2004.

The Defense Department is investigating allegations of a cover-up, including failure by the Army to tell Tillman's family for several weeks that he had been killed by gunfire from his fellow Army Rangers, not by enemy fire as they initially were told.

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Why it took this for the Tillman family to put it together is the bizzare part.

[lawrocket 3]

Pat Tillman told his fellow Rangers that he thought the Iraq war was illegal. Factually speaking, he was a Ranger BEFORE his deployment to Iraq.

See, that's the thing with intellectuals like Tillman. They tend to "think about what is going on. That's also th thing about professionals - they do it, anyway.

And the leadership screwed Pat Tillman, who wanted to be treated like everyone else. That's also the thing with exceptional people - they don't believe they are exceptional and don't want to be treated like they are.

Do you think Pat Tillman joined the Army to fight for his country? I don't. Do you think Pat Tillman quit his job as a professional football player because of the call of duty? I don't. Do you think Pat Tillman did it to be a showboat? I don't.

The thing about guys like Pat Tillman (who would try to learn about everything he could because of a desire to understand it) is that they do things for reasons most cannot comprehend. I'm sure those that knew him best would agree that he did it because he wanted to gain an understanding of the part of human nature that only war can give a person. He's intellectual that way.

He was thoughtful, idealistic and pragmatic. Tillman was neither conservative nor liberal. Tillman was Tillman. That's all.

It was reflected greatly how much Tillman resented being used in death as a puppet. Don't fucking do it again. Show the man the respect that he EARNED.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Lucky... 0]

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Pat Tillman told his fellow Rangers that he thought the Iraq war was illegal. Factually speaking, he was a Ranger BEFORE his deployment to Iraq.

See, that's the thing with intellectuals like Tillman. They tend to "think about what is going on. That's also th thing about professionals - they do it, anyway.

And the leadership screwed Pat Tillman, who wanted to be treated like everyone else. That's also the thing with exceptional people - they don't believe they are exceptional and don't want to be treated like they are.

Do you think Pat Tillman joined the Army to fight for his country? I don't. Do you think Pat Tillman quit his job as a professional football player because of the call of duty? I don't. Do you think Pat Tillman did it to be a showboat? I don't.

The thing about guys like Pat Tillman (who would try to learn about everything he could because of a desire to understand it) is that they do things for reasons most cannot comprehend. I'm sure those that knew him best would agree that he did it because he wanted to gain an understanding of the part of human nature that only war can give a person. He's intellectual that way.

He was thoughtful, idealistic and pragmatic. Tillman was neither conservative nor liberal. Tillman was Tillman. That's all.

It was reflected greatly how much Tillman resented being used in death as a puppet. Don't fucking do it again. Show the man the respect that he EARNED.

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He was thoughtful, idealistic and pragmatic. Tillman was neither conservative nor liberal. Tillman was Tillman. That's all.

I believe everyone has a place on the continuum of politics. I have a hard time thinking Tillman wasn't leaning toward conservative, but I don't think he went to war for that measure, I think he went becuae he's a crazy mofo first and foremost.

But when I write that the conservatives finally figured it out, it is pointed at the person making these assertions, his brother. It is also pointed at anyone else who might think this so-called war is legitimate. Hell, it appears even Bush is starting to figure it out.

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It was reflected greatly how much Tillman resented being used in death as a puppet. Don't fucking do it again. Show the man the respect that he EARNED.

If that's directed at me, I'll fucking do it if I wish - deal with it. I'm not using him as a puppet, but if you view it that way, cool. You say he was an intellectual, probably so, so why not dissect his motive as he would do?

Now to, "earned." When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money. We see which one society seems to value more, so that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

[mnealtx 0]

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Now to, "earned." When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money. We see which one society seems to value more, so that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

Would that be before, or after, the esteemed counselor was a U.S. Army officer?

It's ok..we'll wait while you turn around and pull your head out...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Now to, "earned." When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money. We see which one society seems to value more, so that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

Would that be before, or after, the esteemed counselor was a U.S. Army officer?

It's ok..we'll wait while you turn around and pull your head out...

No one can pull the head out more often than you. Let's see if the warning is mutual, not at all, or one-sided for the same language.


None the less, if he was in the Army, I was in the service for 1 term, so as for his statement of, "earned" I have earned the right to make suggestions, complaints, and even slander the military and the government based upon his standard or, "earned." Have you? Normally the loudest screamers are the least qualified.

Furthermore, I was out in the elements of -50 weather 1/2 of the time and in semi-remote locations, I wonder where "the esteemed counselor" was? Perhaps in a warm office???? Even if in the Gulf War, 150 died and the officers were insulated. The guys in this mess have it as bad as VN.

I just don't like being told I better fucking not do X, Y, or Z when I was simply asserting that the brother of Tillman, not Tillman has realized what a crock and illegal the war is. Perhaps the brother knew it sooner, perhaps not, but either way I was addressing the brother.

As for Tillman, I think he was a fucking nut, which is what made him a great football player in spite of what that POS Simeon Rice said about him. He is a war hero, even in a war of futility, the sacrifice is as golden as if he was in WWII or any other war. Conclusion is that I think he was so crazy that he wanted to be in the shit.

Before ASU football games he would climb the light towers, however far up they are, and introspect to get ready fro games. He was an intellect, and war hero and a crazy fucker, which is why he went to war, IMO.

[mnealtx 0]

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None the less, if he was in the Army, I was in the service for 1 term, so as for his statement of, "earned" I have earned the right to make suggestions, complaints, and even slander the military and the government based upon his standard or, "earned." Have you? Normally the loudest screamers are the least qualified.

I did my hitch and have spent 15 years since then supporting military comms in remote locations. So, I guess that makes me even more qualified to call bullshit, doesn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jenfly00 0]

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Now to, "earned." When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money. We see which one society seems to value more, so that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

Would that be before, or after, the esteemed counselor was a U.S. Army officer?

It's ok..we'll wait while you turn around and pull your head out...

The Army paid for college, he had to give them some time.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[jenfly00 0]

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None the less, if he was in the Army, I was in the service for 1 term, so as for his statement of, "earned" I have earned the right to make suggestions, complaints, and even slander the military and the government based upon his standard or, "earned." Have you? Normally the loudest screamers are the least qualified.

I did my hitch and have spent 15 years since then supporting military comms in remote locations. So, I guess that makes me even more qualified to call bullshit, doesn't it?

It seems you attempt the allusion of a lonely soldier, putting himself in harms way, standing a post to make our country safe. What is you do, exactly?

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[mnealtx 0]

I didn't "attempt" anything... simply stated facts.

As for what I do...

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supporting military comms

is an apt description. Troops have to have their email, telephone, CNN, etc...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jenfly00 0]

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I didn't "attempt" anything... simply stated facts.

As for what I do...

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supporting military comms

is an apt description. Troops have to have their email, telephone, CNN, etc...

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Lucky... 0]

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None the less, if he was in the Army, I was in the service for 1 term, so as for his statement of, "earned" I have earned the right to make suggestions, complaints, and even slander the military and the government based upon his standard or, "earned." Have you? Normally the loudest screamers are the least qualified.

I did my hitch and have spent 15 years since then supporting military comms in remote locations. So, I guess that makes me even more qualified to call bullshit, doesn't it?

Well then call you're own bullshit; you're qualified.

I've spent much of my post-military time working for military contractirs too, so I don't think you can disqualify me.

[Andy9o8 2]

You know, if the two of you would simply post pics of your peckers, we could decide for ourselves whose is bigger.

[wmw999 2,589]

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post pics of your peckers, we could decide for ourselves whose is bigger

Might I suggest the Naked guy post whore glory thread in Bonfire? Things like that are meant to be shared and appreciated
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

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You know, if the two of you would simply post pics of your peckers, we could decide for ourselves whose is bigger.

Is that an order of the court, counselor? Would hate to be found in contempt....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Now to, "earned." When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money. We see which one society seems to value more, so that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

Would that be before, or after, the esteemed counselor was a U.S. Army officer?

It's ok..we'll wait while you turn around and pull your head out...

The Army paid for college, he had to give them some time.

What's that, he was reserve? Sitting on a remote post? Service is service, but ANY American has the right to have a voice, military history or not.

My Point to Neal or anyone is that I really hate when I read stuff like this:

It was reflected greatly how much Tillman resented being used in death as a puppet. Don't fucking do it again. Show the man the respect that he EARNED.

There was that set of pics going around showing a US soldier in Iraq petting a kitten, laughing with Iraqis and a bunch of other staged photo ops and at the bottom of the email it stated, “don’t you dare omit this email and you better forward this on to someone else.” This kind of threatening, daring people to exercise their freedom of choice is what I find as foolish. I find it is correlated with the conservative side, but either way, do the people espousing these dares really think the readers view them as something they better follow? It’s obviously just that the author is so emotional he/she wants to express it, but it is really strange.

[Lucky... 0]

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You know, if the two of you would simply post pics of your peckers, we could decide for ourselves whose is bigger.

How about a cage fight

[mnealtx 0]

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ANY American has the right to have a voice, military history or not.

Unless they use Extreme examples, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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ANY American has the right to have a voice, military history or not.

Unless they use Extreme examples, right?

OK, so I wrote:

Quit using EXTREME examples; let's start talking about the family earning 25k/yr orthe college kid trying to get an education to contribute post grad. These are the people who need medical care who can;t afford it.


Now tie that into anything here.

1) Where did I write anything extreme?

2) Where did I say that people using extreme examples shouldn't have a voice?

Other than something for you to post, what does this have to do with anything?

In reality it actually plays against the people who dare others to have na opinion, as that is a radical stance to dare others to think for themselves, so if the citation applies, it actually counters your side.

I just don;t understand the application here.

[mnealtx 0]

Weren't you basically doing the same thing you accuse Lawrocket of doing?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Weren't you basically doing the same thing you accuse Lawrocket of doing?

So you apparently agree with me that your citation has no bearing here.

As for me doing what I said Lawrocket was doing, no.

He said:

- Don't fucking dare do that (assert your opinion)

I wrote:

- I'll fucking so it if I wish; deal with it.


His was a mandate to for others to follow a rule of his, mine was a declaration that I will do what I want.

I merely stated it is a joke for examples like that email that circulated to: don't dare delete this. Do the authors really think we shake when we read that? It's simply emotion comming out in the form of a directive, which is a joke. Great to be compassionate, but none the less a joke.

So how is it that I was doing what Lawrocket did? The burden lies with you to make your point.

[mnealtx 0]

In essence, were you not both saying "You can't say that"?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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In essence, were you not both saying "You can't say that"?

I like how every address from you is a question. If you had a solid base from which to make a point, you would. Just let it go or make a point.


- If I tell you that you better not do X,Y,Z, that is a directive.

- If you reply by saying that you will do it, deal with it, that is reply of independance.

The first is an example of a person reaching outside their person, the second is one that establishes a person's own right to do what they want within their person.

I understand you're out of gas, so just let it go OR create an argument instead of scattered, spurious questions.

LR has let it go, why do this?

[wmw999 2,589]

Guys, the moderators are at work, Nationals, and post-Bridge-day travel respectively. Don't cross that line... You can both piss a lot farther than I can

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,150]

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You can both piss a lot farther than I can

Wendy W.

I have been told that there are techniques you can use...

Not that I have any actual evidence of effectiveness.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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If that's directed at me, I'll fucking do it if I wish - deal with it.

It wasn't directed at you. It was something directed by family and friends of Tillman who resented that he was being used as a rallying cry for recruitment after his death.

It's simply my statement that it should go both ways - that Pat Tillman should be used for neither an anti-war or a pro-war tool.

To get any info on the man would indicate that it's how he lived.

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When you were in college and law school I was in the military, so perhaps I, "earned" the right to comment where others haven't. You learned how to make a lot of money, I learned how to defend this country and become the backbone of this country, you learned how to make a lot of money.

I guess in that sense you should call me, "Sir." Captain would work fine, too. While we both were in the military (probably at the same time) I was also in college and law school.

Believe it or not, even when I was a friggin ROTC Nazi, I was man enough and had balls enough to be the one fucking guy who admitted I didn't want to be camped out in a goddamned swamp. While everyone was being asked what branch they wanted, all these guys were, "I WANNA BE A RANGER!" "I WANNA BE AIRBORNE INFANT-TREE!" "I WANNA BE A TANKER, HOOAH!" I was the one who said, "I wanna be transporter. Instead of camping out in another freaking swamp, I'll just close the door." Of course they viewed me as a "pussy," which became a more interesting word at OBC, since it is a co-ed branch.

It was actually refreshing to go out and get dirty on the weekend when my mind was ravaged from studying. And nothing spelled stress relief like commanding an OPFOR unit during exercises killing engineers and MPs as my spring break. (As an LT, nothing was more surreal than when a couple of E-7's with Ranger and Special Forces tabs they earned in Vietnam came up and said, "What do you want us to do, sir?" It was nice that SFC Perez told me, "You are no REMF, since a REMF wouldn't be out here." Oh, yes. I forgot to tell you - the Army thought I was great at what I did and made me an Observer/Controller - OPFOR was a side job).

As an aside, the right to speak out is not "earned." It's there for everybody. In fact, the only people I can think of who do NOT have an unfettered right to speak out are in the military.

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that speaks volumes of your entire flag waving rhetoric and definition of, "earned."

I ain't no "flag waiver," as you probably define it. I've never supported the war, if it's what you are getting at. I have rarely supported Bush. About the most "support" I have provided for Bush is my thought that he was decisive and bold in staking his presidency on this war. I don't think it paid off.

My flag waiving consists of supporting the Constitution, i.e., due process rights. I'm disgusted at tactics and policies of the Bush Admin and the GOP, and I have stated it often. I'm almost as disgusted at the Democrats, first for their ideals, second for their lack of substance and third for their lack of balls with anything over the past 5 years...

My wife is hotter than your wife.