Avg MPG, 1980 and Today...a whopping 7% increase!!

[stoneycase 0]

That's right, and you can thank your wonderful legislators and auto manufacturer for all their hard work when you go fillup this weekend. They've obviously made excellent progress in this area and we should all be thankful for their efforts

Happy reading.

http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/?p=195

TFA: According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) the average gas mileage for new vehicles sold in the United States has 23.1 miles per gallon (mpg) in 1980 to 24.7 in 2004. This represents a paltry increase of slightly less than 7% over the 25 year period.

IMHO, the only way to effect change is to increase pain. Increase pain at the consumer level and increase pain exponentially at the mfr level. Expecting a Clean Air Board, or CAFE legislation to save us is naieve. The proof is in the historical data.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[wmw999 2,545]

There's more to that story. The Car Talk guys' website addressed that very issue last month in a column here. The upshot is that there's a lot of stuff on cars now that wasn't then, most of it's good.

I remember my 1972 Subaru. It got great gas mileage. It was teacup-light and flimsy; I rear-ended someone on the freeway going maybe 20 mph. I did no damage whatsoever to his car, and totalled mine. The doors were about 2" thick cross-section; much thinner than they are now. The whole car weighed less than a ton, and most of the weight was definitely not structural reinforcement.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[unformed 0]

also a lot of the reduced mpg is due to emissions control and other stuff. i think billvon explained it some time ago.

in order to protect the environment, we end up having worse gas mileage.

This ad space for sale.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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That's right, and you can thank your wonderful legislators and auto manufacturer for all their hard work when you go fillup this weekend. They've obviously made excellent progress in this area and we should all be thankful for their efforts

It's the fault of the consumers.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[jakee 1,564]

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There's more to that story. The Car Talk guys' website addressed that very issue last month in a column here. The upshot is that there's a lot of stuff on cars now that wasn't then, most of it's good.

I remember my 1972 Subaru. It got great gas mileage. It was teacup-light and flimsy; I rear-ended someone on the freeway going maybe 20 mph. I did no damage whatsoever to his car, and totalled mine. The doors were about 2" thick cross-section; much thinner than they are now. The whole car weighed less than a ton, and most of the weight was definitely not structural reinforcement.

My dad drives a two year old Toyota Yaris diesel that gets 80mpg on the open road and has an 85% Euro NCAP crash test safety rating.

Efficiency and safety are obviously not exclusive.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[quade 4]

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It's the fault of the consumers.

It goes WAY beyond EPA and NHTSA, it even goes beyond what consumers actually -want- and into what marketers -believe- will sell.

You can just look at the history of cars and see the incremental increases of horsepower and performance as the years go by.

What passes for a "boring" car today actually blows away a lot of the "muscle" cars of the past. But all that horsepower is really just energy going to waste and for "bragging rights" 99% of the time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Stumpy 284]

Thats crap - it just gives the "Bigger must be better" crew a crutch to justify the 6 litre trucks and stuff.
Drive anything european or japanese and half decent and you will double your mpg, and have better handling and performance. (Only problem being some of the manufacturers change the engines in their cars to meet american taste)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kelpdiver 2]

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Drive anything european or japanese and half decent and you will double your mpg, and have better handling and performance. (Only problem being some of the manufacturers change the engines in their cars to meet american taste)

cough up some evidence.

we're looking for better performing Japanese/Euro cars getting 50mpg.

[jakee 1,564]

Quote

cough up some evidence.

we're looking for better performing Japanese/Euro cars getting 50mpg.

See my above post. I was not kidding.

For official figures on the Yaris diesel look here

"FUEL CONSUMPTION: [S/GS] (Urban) 55.4mpg / (extra urban) 76.3mpg / (combined) 67.3mpg"

The petrol version will also deliver in excess of 50mpg on the open road. Note, these are not hybrids, just efficient engines.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Stumpy 284]

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearchResults.asp

Go Here.

I looked at the 41-50 mpg bracket for example, and found 88 pages of cars (These are NEW cars on the market in the UK right now)

There were 21 pages between 51-60
11 Pages between 61-70.

Granted, as you go up the MPG scale, it tends to move towards the town car/ very small engined stuff, but they still go round corners better than most US cars.

The majority of people in the US driving F150's, other big trucks, big V8's etc etc etc, DO NOT NEED THEM - its purely a vanity purchase and "yeah i really care about the environment but i will drive what the f*** i like."

Its not just you - I get annoyed at the numbers of 4WD chelsea tractors here - same syndrome.

For those who do need the big trucks - people hauling 5th wheels, farmers, tradesmen, Offroad hobbyists etc, fine, fill yer boots man!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Gravitymaster 0]

First you said:

Quote

The majority of people in the US driving F150's, other big trucks, big V8's etc etc etc, DO NOT NEED THEM - its purely a vanity purchase

Then you said:

Quote

For those who do need the big trucks - people hauling 5th wheels, farmers, tradesmen, Offroad hobbyists etc, fine, fill yer boots man!

So you are saying people make vanity purchases of F-150's so they will appear to be farmers, tradesmen, hobbyists and people pulling 5th wheelers?

-

[Stumpy 284]

Good point actually - in the UK all the flash twats drive Range rovers, BMW X5's, shit like that, when the closest they go to off road is the gravel drive to the golf course, whereas the people who need the capability tend to drive Defender 110's or Toyota Hilux.

No joke, i have even seen people clean their car on the inside but not the outside because they want it to have that authentic "I drive around in muddy bogs" look.

Someone actually once told me about spray on mud but i haven't confirmed that yet.

Edited : Yes i have http://www.sprayonmud.com/index.html

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Good point actually - in the UK all the flash twats drive Range rovers, BMW X5's, shit like that, when the closest they go to off road is the gravel drive to the golf course, whereas the people who need the capability tend to drive Defender 110's or Toyota Hilux.

No joke, i have even seen people clean their car on the inside but not the outside because they want it to have that authentic "I drive around in muddy bogs" look.

Someone actually once told me about spray on mud but i haven't confirmed that yet.

Edited : Yes i have http://www.sprayonmud.com/index.html

That's too much.... Now I'm wondering what kind of person would actually be impressed that someone had been off-roading it.

Would someone please pass the beef jerky?

-

[kallend 2,107]

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Good point actually - in the UK all the flash twats drive Range rovers, BMW X5's, shit like that, when the closest they go to off road is the gravel drive to the golf course, whereas the people who need the capability tend to drive Defender 110's or Toyota Hilux.

My neighbor the lawyer has a Range Rover to drive the 1/2 mile to the country club. His neigbor the stockbroker uses a big Lexus SUV for the same trip (yes, I live in an affluent neighborhood). However, the country club's driveway is paved, not gravel. Neither of them use spray-on mud, though.. Our neighbor the landscaper has a big ol' truck that is covered in mud but our snooty village ordinance won't let him park it in the driveway overnight.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

cough up some evidence.

we're looking for better performing Japanese/Euro cars getting 50mpg.

See my above post. I was not kidding.

For official figures on the Yaris diesel look here

"FUEL CONSUMPTION: [S/GS] (Urban) 55.4mpg / (extra urban) 76.3mpg / (combined) 67.3mpg"

The petrol version will also deliver in excess of 50mpg on the open road. Note, these are not hybrids, just efficient engines.

So where are those performance numbers? That was the second half of the equation. I won't disagree that it's silly that American consumers voted for performance (or heavy ugly bodywork in SUVs) over economy in the past 15 years, but you claimed superiority on both ends. Diesels tend to lose on performance. And sadly, in California I can't buy them at all currently. 49 state models exist that do score in the 40s.

I would like to see American cars come with the instantaneous gas use gauges that are common (standard?) elsewhere. I think that might discourage the pattern of alternately flooring the gas and then the brakes as they go light to light.

[Stumpy 284]

What do you want me to do, cross reference 88 pages of cars performance figures with every car made in the states? Sorry but i'm not THAT bored

But for an example, the best selling car in the US is an F150 isn't it? (I think i read that somewhere)
From some stats i found on the F150 with a very quick look - its a 2004 model but should be about the same

MPG is about 18
0-60 time 8.9 seconds.

Take my car as something mid range (it cost me £4.5 k second hand, 2001 model) -Seat Leon Cupra 1.8 litre turbo
0-60 time is about 7 seconds i think
MPG - 35-40

Now thats a fairly irrelevant comparison but the point is, you don't need heavy, big, thirsty engines to get good performance.

Also, diesels these days are REALLY good, and in some measures of performance will trounce a lot of similar level petrol engines. (top gear roll ons and things like that)
Are they illegal in cali due to particulate emissions or something? (which again is a different debate although diesels are a lot cleaner these days too) or can you just not get them

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[piisfish 140]

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I think that might discourage the pattern of alternately flooring the gas and then the brakes as they go light to light.

They wouldn't care anyways, their petrol is 1/2 - 1/3 of the european prices...

Wuffo do you floor the gas pedal ??
Cause I can

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Cajun 0]

Diesels are pretty hard to get here in the USA.

Only big trucks (1/2 ton) and voltswagons have diesel engines here. The VWs I believe will not sell any diesels in the 2007 model year because of emission with burning low sulpher diesel (500 ppm).

2008 I believe VW will start selling diesel engines that will run on the new ultra low sulpher diesel (50ppm)

I have a 2003 VW diesel Jetta that gets 48mpg

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

I think that might discourage the pattern of alternately flooring the gas and then the brakes as they go light to light.

They wouldn't care anyways, their petrol is 1/2 - 1/3 of the european prices...

I think you could get some pretty substantial gains in efficiency. Gas is cheap here, but people bitch to high hell about $3/gallon. Some people may just not be aware how badly fuel economy suffers from a heavy foot, and might change if they had the information to do so. I personally would really like to know the difference in my car going 60, 70, 80mph.

One could track the practices of Prius owners, but I suspect they're already a bit on the efficient side in driving style.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

What do you want me to do, cross reference 88 pages of cars performance figures with every car made in the states? Sorry but i'm not THAT bored

But for an example, the best selling car in the US is an F150 isn't it? (I think i read that somewhere)

if you going to compare cars to a truck, yeah, the American truck is going to lose badly. Though Ford has remodeled it towards the casual driving population, its core customer has been people who need work trucks. So it needs to be able to carry a substantial payload. That requires a less aerodynamic body, and a different engine geared towards dealing with weight rather than gunning 0-60.

Aside from the diesel issue (CA has issues with particulate matter), there's nothing magical about non American engine technology. You want a lot of torque and HP, you're going to give up fuel economy. Because of the historic prices here, that's compromise has been the preferred one for the US consumers. In the 80s fuel economy was rising and then the gas prices collapsed back under $1/gallon and engines got bigger and bigger. Then came the stupid SUV craze.

We could have the same sorts of cars, but I think Washington is going to have to remove the alternatives for us to adopt them as the norm. Given the costs of the status quo, I wouldn't complain, but enough would that I don't see a politican that will do it.

[piisfish 140]

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[Gas is cheap here, but people bitch to high hell about $3/gallon. Some people may just not be aware how badly fuel economy suffers from a heavy foot, and might change if they had the information to do so.

here we are slightly above 6$/gallon, so we bitch about the US people heavy footing and complaining.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Stumpy 284]

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its core customer has been people who need work trucks

Not true, the whole point is that its core customer is someone who goes nowhere near anything heavy. like i said, its a vanity purchase.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jakee 1,564]

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Aside from the diesel issue (CA has issues with particulate matter), there's nothing magical about non American engine technology. You want a lot of torque and HP, you're going to give up fuel economy.

Its not just that. When American manufacturers want to make a big, powerful saloon or muscle car they chuck in roughly one of the same V-8s or Hemis that they have been using for the last 50 years. When they want more power from it, they just make it bigger. European and Japanese manufacturers are more likely to keep designing new engines that get increased power from the same size (and weight) and better mileage too (or at least less bad mileage.

The casual attitude towards fuel consumption in the States has led your car companies to be very, very lazy when it comes to engine design.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[leroydb 0]

can i get one in the USA?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[jcd11235 0]

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There's more to that story. The Car Talk guys' website addressed that very issue last month in a column here. The upshot is that there's a lot of stuff on cars now that wasn't then, most of it's good.

Funny you should mention Tom & Ray.

I was listening to Car Talk a month or three ago, and they proposed a $3 per gallon gasoline tax, implemented at a rate of $.50 per year over six years, to reduce unnecessary fuel consumption in the US. I believe their idea included exemptions for the first x number of gallons consumed each year, with additional exemptions for those that could justify using more fuel.

The idea was to make it less attractive for those who feel the need to drive Hummers, large trucks and the like for one or two people to get from point A to point B. The six year implementation would offer people a reasonable amount of time to replace their oversized vehicles
with more economic models.

Tom and Ray felt that such a tax would keep the pre-tax cost of fuel from rising as quickly as it has in recent years, and taxpayers would ultimately benefit from the tax revenue (as opposed to shareholders benefiting from increased profits), as well as the reduced demand for and consumption of fuel.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!