Child Labor?

[skybytch 273]

We were discussing economies in my Cultural Anthropology class the other day, and one of the topics in the lecture was child labor. The instructor is from India, came to the US to go to college (earned a PhD), is married with at least one child and has become a US citizen - this may or may not be important, but I think it is.

Anyway, she mentioned that she has cleaning companies come in to clean her house on an irregular basis. Recently, she used a family owned and run company. She told the class that she was "horrified" when she saw that the 12 year old daughter of the lady who owned the company was cleaning the bathroom. She said her 11 year old daughter was also "horrified" by this. She seemed to me to assume that all of us also considered this "horrifying." She made it pretty clear that it wasn't just the fact that the girl was working at age 12, it was also the fact that the girl was doing a less-than glamorous job.

She went on to tell us that she informed the lady of how she felt, and told her that the 12 year old was not to have to clean the other bathroom. The lady replied along the lines of "my daughter wants to have extra money, this is a way she can earn it".

Classroom discussion ensued. I was the only one who spoke up saying that I was NOT horrified; in fact, by the time I was 12 I was on my 2nd job (and the first job involved... you guessed it, cleaning bathrooms!). Her reply to that was along the lines of "generational differences" (yes, I'm a good 20 years older than most of the other students, but I'm also very close in age to the instructor). I know I wasn't the only person in the class who thinks the way I do (just the only one to speak up), as I discussed this with another student later on and she agreed with me.

All of this got me wondering where the difference in our reactions comes from. I don't think it's a generational/age thing, I think it's a culture/class thing - I grew up in a working class family in the US, she grew up in an upper class family (that employed servants) in India.

In my view, doing menial labor for extra money is a good thing for a kid. It teaches them the value of money in a way that an allowance for taking the trash out never will. It shows them what life might be like if they don't get an education. It builds the work ethic that is one of the things that people in the US value highly. As long as the work doesn't interfere with school, I'm all for 12 year olds having jobs - even if those jobs involve cleaning toilets.

What do you guys think?

[quade 4]

I think you'd need to review the child labor laws.

My concern would be that a child of 12 probably doesn't understand the health implications of the work.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

Hi Bytch

Definately a social class thing.

OTOH a kid cleaning bathrooms in a nasty bar after a fri/sat night would be child abuse

R.I.P.

[freethefly 6]

At age 9 (1969)I was mowing yards for Judge Baker in Lemoore, Ca.. My dad worked for him as a second job to suppliment his Navy pay. Baker owned a good number of homes and other property. He paid us, myself and my brother, $5.00 each for each yard we mowed. We mowed several yards a day, monday through friday in the summer. During school days we mowed after school. We also did cleaning for him in town at some of his other properties as well as cleaning his horse stalls. I had a very nice savings account. I see no reason why a kid should not be able to work if they wish (as long as the work is proper for a child).

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[skybytch 273]

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OTOH a kid cleaning bathrooms in a nasty bar after a fri/sat night would be child abuse

LMAO! Yeah, I'm with ya on that.

[lawrocket 3]

My kid will do chores. It's that simple. If someone accuses me of being mean because I'm using child labor I'll tell that person to fuck off.

There are lines as to what is appropriate. What about paperboys? Mowing lawns? Lemonade stands.

It's difficult to say what the line is for this, but I don't see this girl as being equivalent to some kid hauling trams in the coal mine.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ltdiver 3]

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In my view, doing menial labor for extra money is a good thing for a kid. It teaches them the value of money in a way that an allowance for taking the trash out never will.

Not just a social class thing, but also generational.

My dad had three businesses that he created for himself in his young teen years. The first newspaper for our town. The first trash route as well. Then on top of it an insurance business. He LOVED it!

Since he was too young to have a business license on his own, his mother signed the papers. She, on paper, owned the businesses. My dad ran them.

After all of the businesses became successful (and taking alot of my dad's time), his mother sold two of them out from under him (for profit, and tucked it away for college tuition). WOW, was my dad angry!

That newspaper business -and- trash pick-up business are -still- in operation (more than 50 years later). He ran the insurance business through college (earning young-entrepreneur medals from the city) and sold it when he went to work for a world corporation.

So, I guess what I'm saying is hell yes kids need to learn to value work and money from a young age. Not child-labor in a factory, but say delivering newspapers, mowing lawns, babysitting for a neighbor. Not just hand-outs from their parents/grandparents. Age? Depends on the task. I was cleaning the house (all aspects) of it by age 9....the outside by age 12.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[peregrinerose 0]

Sounds like the kid wanted to earn the money, wasn't being forced to. Any kid can clean a toilet, not labor intensive work, so I don't see a problem with it at all.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[PLFXpert 0]

There's a lot of variables to this.

My first question would be whether the woman forced her child to help her or the child voluntarily helped for extra money. You answered that question; or at least the woman did. Chores/responsibilities around the house and for the family teach valuable lessons and is perfectly fine/acceptable for a parent to assign, regardless of the child's wants. Work outside the home, however, needs to be voluntary up until a certain age. Since she volunteered for the extra cash, I'm completely fine with it; assuming that's the true story.

Personally, I have issue with any stranger in my house cleaning. We've had problems in my family with various cleaning services and privately hired cleaners that have broken, stolen, you-name-it. I'd say the chances of a 12-year-old accidentally breaking something are much higher than an adult and for that reason I would not want the 12-year old cleaning my house.

My second question would be are proper precautions being taken? What chemicals are being used to clean? Are they harsh chemicals such as bleach? If so, is the child wearing gloves and a mask? An adult can decide for themselves the risk involved and choose as they prefer. A child, regardless of volunteering to do the work should only be permitted to do so if she is willing to protect herself and it is then the parent's responsibility to make sure the child is properly protected.

Also, I'd question how well the mother is keeping an eye on her 12-year-old. Certainly in her own home she knows what dangerous things are in the house and where and has (hopefully) placed them out of reach of the child and/or has educated the child on their danger. In a stranger's home, however, there's no telling what the 12-year-old could come across while cleaning that might interest her and could potentially be dangerous. I would hope the mother is also cleaning the bathroom with the child; maybe doing the shower while the child cleans the sink. I think it's important a watchful eye be kept.

And I don't think it's a clear social class thing OR cultural. I always had to work for money despite living in what would be considered a well-to-do household. Granted my work was around the house, but was in addition to my chores. I could opt to do anything from washing/waxing my dad's car/motorcycle to climbing in the attic and wiring a circuit breaker should that need to be done. Different things had different values. I'd get $5 for washing my Dad's car for example. But, I'd get $20 for digging a 10 foot long by 2 feet deep ditch so my dad could then install an inground sprinkler system. There are only limited jobs outside the house (babysitting, modeling, acting, lawn-mowing, lemonade stand, etc) for children under the age of 15 unless they have a family member/friend that makes an exception for them; in which case child labor laws and proper safety precautions should be taken.

I have a major issue with forced child labor; the mere fact that they're working at their age has little to do with it. The problem I have is what they're being forced to do and the conditions they're forced to do it in.

This situation it seems is a far, far cry from what I have issue with though.

I would have spoken up with you, Lisa.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[wmw999 2,587]

I grew up in another country; while I was an ex-pat, in Brazil I was definitely upper-class. Here in the US, my family was always part of the "academic circles" (i.e. pretty doggone liberal, mainly contact with college folks, etc).

I don't see anything at all wrong with it, as long as the parent makes sure that the child isn't exposed to other people's toxic stuff. Children participating in what their parents do is how they learn. Children doing something that is legitimately useful to earn money (rather than meaningless stuff) is how they learn.

My son began working in a family store at 14. He has an excellent work ethic (well, except for homework before college ).

Edit to add: my cleaning lady used to bring her daughter to help when she was in her early teens. It never occurred to me to be horrified.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Kids do chores, and working on a job with the parent is even better for character and teaching them about responsibility.

The only issue is the parent needs to make sure the job is done well.

Cleaning toilets is nothing compared to working on the farm at a much younger age as I, and all my classmates, did when I was in 1st grade and on up.

Your teacher is big wimp, rich kid with a worthless degree and doesn't understand life or children at all. She likely has an underlying snobbish/class structured view of the world and considers you students and her servants as "beneath her". You should complain and get transferred to another instructor immediately. You should call social services and make sure her child gets adopted by responsible parents that won't raise the kid to be a sniveling spoiled whiny idiot. The university should also strip away her PhD, shave her head and make her clean toilets for while.

I think NOT giving kids chores, and sometimes hard chores, is much bigger abuse of them in the long run.

Oh, and her 'dressing' down the mother for this actually really caps it. And I bet she did it right in front of the child too. Your teacher is a horrible, horrible person.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[freethefly 6]

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The instructor is from India

Do you find it hypocritical that this woman would complain of a child in the U.S. doing an easy task while children in her own country work long hours in sweatshops. She should go back to her own country and fight for the rights of children there or just STFU over here.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

I grew up in a family that valued chores and something I hear very little of now....EARNING your KEEP.

Every summer all of my cousins and myself were shipped off for the summer and all of us worked on sanding and painting on boats in the boat yard...We got up very early to do this and usually by 11 AM it was too hot to do any more work on them.. so we all got to go sailing..fishing.. crabbing etc.. till the summer afternoon thundershowers would hit.

It taught a work ethic that I value to this day.

[tigra 0]

Wow- interesting thread! I agree with you about the whole work ethic and learning the value of a buck AND an education.

Also, I think there's a HUGE difference between a kid pitching in with the family business (and/or doing some part time work to earn extra cash) and working long hours in some sweat shop in a 3rd world country to support his or her entire family. As long as it doesn't interfere with school, or just being a kid, I'm all for it. Its all about balance, though, and I'd hate to see a kid miss out on her entire childhood because she HAD to work every weekend and every summer. Still, I'll bet this kid who is working and helping out her family will end up being an independent and successful adult. The kid who was "horrified" at the sight of another kid cleaning a bathroom just might be in for a rude awakening when she grows up and needs to support herself.

My sisters and I all started babysitting for the neighbors when we turned 11, and my brother had a paper route at that age. I babysat until I was old enough to get a "real" job at a local retail store and I've been working pretty much ever since. I wouldn't call my family "working class" but we also weren't "upper class"- what we were doing was totally normal for us and the kids we went to school with. When I went to college, I was expected to pay my own tuition and arrange for my own loans and financial aid. Although we didn't have "menial" housekeeping jobs, it was work all the same! And if the housekeeping jobs were available to us, and they paid better than babysitting, you can bet we would have taken them!

Maybe it IS partly a generational thing though, because out of all of my nieces and nephews old enough to work legally, so far, only one worked steadily throughout high school and college. The next oldest has only worked sporadically and expects her parents to pay for everything- even plans on grad school once she graduates from her 5 year double major program at Oberlin. Plus, it IS more difficult for kids under 16 to get any jobs than it used to be. Parents no longer want young kids babysitting their young(er) kids and the paper routes are done by adults in SUVs, instead of kids on bikes!

[mr2mk1g 10]

When I was 12 I identified a niche business opportunity in the locality and set up my own small entrepreneurial operation taking payment from local land owners.

Ask her if she is horrified for me.

I was a rat catcher. I was already shooting pigeons for the adjacent farmer and being paid by the kill... his grain barns had rats, so did those other farmers in the area. I had a shotgun, air rifles, a dog, experience on how to smoke rats out and a back hoe with a nice sharp edge. It seemed a rather simple equation to me, even at 12.

Now ask her if she is horrified for me.

[redlegphi 0]

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The instructor is from India

Do you find it hypocritical that this woman would complain of a child in the U.S. doing an easy task while children in her own country work long hours in sweatshops. She should go back to her own country and fight for the rights of children there or just STFU over here.

Um, she's a US citizen. She should no more be concerned with solving all of the problems of India than I should be concerned with voting in the Irish, English, and German elections. So, while I don't agree with her, I certainly don't think it's hypocritical of her to make the comments. The US is her nation now.

[freethefly 6]

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the paper routes are done by adults in SUVs, instead of kids on bikes!

Man, I cannot remember the last time I saw a kid tossing paper. Along with mowing, my brother and I faithfully tossed the Fresno Bee each and everyday, rain or shine with no help from our parents. If we complained my dad explained if you take it on, you do it and shut the hell up.(he was a strict Navy Chief)

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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Um, she's a US citizen. She should no more be concerned with solving all of the problems of India than I should be concerned with voting in the Irish, English, and German elections. So, while I don't agree with her, I certainly don't think it's hypocritical of her to make the comments. The US is her nation now.

Given that type of reasoning then all Americans should no longer give a flying rats ass about anything beyond our borders and just be happy wearing expensive designer clothing made in the sweatshop by the children of third world nations. Let's not be concern about the starving and the dying and let's just be concern about a child that is helping the family business. After all, we are U.S. citizens and far better than the rest of the world (that is sarcasm for those who did not pick up on it). Your reply flies side by side with hypocracy.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[skybytch 273]

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I have a major issue with forced child labor; the mere fact that they're working at their age has little to do with it. The problem I have is what they're being forced to do and the conditions they're forced to do it in.

I'm in total agreement with you on that. What I found striking is that she seemed to equate this 12 year old cleaning bathrooms for pocket money to kids being forced to make Nikes in sweatshops to help support their families. I see a major difference between the two.

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Your teacher is big wimp, rich kid with a worthless degree and doesn't understand life or children at all. She likely has an underlying snobbish/class structured view of the world and considers you students and her servants as "beneath her". You should complain and get transferred to another instructor immediately. You should call social services and make sure her child gets adopted by responsible parents that won't raise the kid to be a sniveling spoiled whiny idiot. The university should also strip away her PhD, shave her head and make her clean toilets for while.

Wow.

One of the big themes of cultural anthropology is dealing with people from other cultures without being "ethnocentric" (ethnocentric is looking at another culture from the viewpoint that your culture is superior). While I think that her comments on this reflect some ethnocentrism on her part, in a way my comments here and in class reflect the same thing.

One of the things I find most interesting about this class (and the intro sociology class I'm also taking this semester) is how it's opening my eyes to the differences in how people of differing nationality, culture and class see various situations. For that reason alone, hearing her opinion on this subject was a valuable lesson.

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Do you find it hypocritical that this woman would complain of a child in the U.S. doing an easy task while children in her own country work long hours in sweatshops. She should go back to her own country and fight for the rights of children there or just STFU over here.

India is where she's done the majority of her research work, and conditions there are very important to her. She was very upfront about child labor in India.

But she is a US citizen, so the US is "her country." She has as much right to have and voice an opinion about things that happen in the US as I do.

[tigra 0]

So, its not so much about her (your prof) being part of the "priveleged" class as much she's seen first hand the abuses of child labor and is violently opposed to it? Or am I reading too much into it?

[skybytch 273]

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So, its not so much about her (your prof) being part of the "priveleged" class as much she's seen first hand the abuses of child labor and is violently opposed to it? Or am I reading too much into it?

Reading too much into it, I think. AFAIK, the only part of her research that involved child labor in any way would have been children working with their families in subsistence farming.

[redlegphi 0]

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Um, she's a US citizen. She should no more be concerned with solving all of the problems of India than I should be concerned with voting in the Irish, English, and German elections. So, while I don't agree with her, I certainly don't think it's hypocritical of her to make the comments. The US is her nation now.

Given that type of reasoning then all Americans should no longer give a flying rats ass about anything beyond our borders and just be happy wearing expensive designer clothing made in the sweatshop by the children of third world nations. Let's not be concern about the starving and the dying and let's just be concern about a child that is helping the family business. After all, we are U.S. citizens and far better than the rest of the world (that is sarcasm for those who did not pick up on it). Your reply flies side by side with hypocracy.

I"m not saying people shouldn't be concerned about the living conditions of people in other nations. I'm just saying it isn't hypocritical for an American citizen to show concern for a child in America and not immediately bring up the plight of children in her home country.

[tigra 0]

Wow- I'm just trying to cut her some slack because otherwise, honestly I don't think Rehmwa's and Freethefly's comments are that far off the mark.

I don't see how this child- working with her mother in the family business- is all that different from a child working with his or her family on the family farm.

[freethefly 6]

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India is where she's done the majority of her research work, and conditions there are very important to her. She was very upfront about child labor in India.

But she is a US citizen, so the US is "her country." She has as much right to have and voice an opinion about things that happen in the US as I do.

Well, now that was not explained in the original post so, I retract the STFU comment. But, if they want to see a real horror show they should take a field trip to the ghettos of America and marvel at how children younger than 10 are caring for their younger siblings while their crackhead and alcoholic parents are off doing whatever. Or, maybe a trip to Appalachian America or better still to the poorest Indian reservations (not all reservation are getting rich from casinos). There is far more to be apalled from than a child of age 12 helping the family business. Having had the oppertunity to travel extensivly around the U.S. and Mexico by rail, my views of America changed, the further I went. Things that I was not fully aware of was right in my face. I am assuming that these regions are also apart of the course discussion. If not, they should be. It is an ugly sight to see the richest of the rich and then less than a mile away to see the poorest of the poor.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't think Rehmwa's .....comments are that far off the mark.

Cool - does that include my big paragraph? Because I was just off on a tangent there for the fun of it. (The other stuff I do believe, especially that kids SHOULD have chores, and that it can include helping out the family business, and to not do that is a bigger disservice than what this PhD was whining about)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants