An outstanding article re: Muslim culture clash

[StreetScooby 5]

This article does a tremendous job of saying what I've been feeling for a long time now. Heads up people, we are in a culture clash with the Muslim religion, and it's not going to change until we recognize it for what it is:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20061013.aspx

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Let's start with the basics. Like economics and being able to feed yourself. The Moslem world contains some of the most economically backward and inept nations on the planet. Despite all the oil wealth, economic growth in the Arab world is at the bottom of the list (just above sub-Saharan Africa, which has much less oil.) This is no accident. Islam has, over the centuries, evolved into a religion that discourages education, critical thinking and technical progress. Islam also has large sects, like the Wahabi in Saudi Arabia, that are violently intolerant of other religions (no other religion can have a house of worship in Saudi Arabia, for example), and openly preaches hatred, intolerance, and the use of violence, against infidels. Moslems tend to downplay all this, and blame their lack of performance on the machinations of infidels.

Islamic media tends towards the sensationalistic, paranoid and dogmatic. It's taken as a given, for example, that the September 11, 2001 attacks were a Jewish plot (even though al Qaeda has proudly admitted to it) and that the West is bent on destroying Islamic culture? What's to destroy? The Islamic world doesn't produce any new medicines, agricultural concepts or technology that benefits all of humanity. Even educated Arabs admit that something is wrong here. But these critics are in a minority, and are persecuted for such clear thinking if they become too vocal about it.

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[Skyrad 0]

Let's start with the basics. Like economics and being able to feed yourself. Africa contains some of the most economically backward and inept nations on the planet. Despite all the oil wealth, economic growth in Africa is at the bottom of the list. This is no accident. Africans have, over the centuries, evolved into a region that discourages education, critical thinking and technical progress. Africa also has large sects of Christians, who like the Wahabi Muslims in Saudi Arabia, are violently intolerant of other religions and openly preaches hatred, intolerance, and the use of violence, against Muslims. African Christians tend to downplay all this, and blame their lack of performance on the machinations of west.

African media tends towards the sensationalistic, paranoid and dogmatic. It's taken as a given, for example, that the West is bent on destroying African culture? What's to destroy? Africa doesn't produce any new medicines, agricultural concepts or technology that benefits all of humanity. Even educated Africans admit that something is wrong here. But these critics are in a minority, and are persecuted for such clear thinking if they become too vocal about it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Coming from someone who lives in a country where a large amount of people (Including members of the government) belive that the world needs and looks forward to a nuclear war so that Jesus can come again. People who condemn anyone that is not a born again evenglist to an eternity of hellfire. From a country that is the most in debt in the world. Who make up only 4% of the worlds population yet use 25% of the worlds consumables. The only country in the world who has used Nuclear devices not once but twice against fellow humans. A country that reguarly attacks and invades other smaller countries. I find that pretty damn hypocritical and funny.

Also if the idiot that wrote that article had the first idea of what he was talking about he would know that Muslims don't view non Muslims as infidels. Jews and Christians are not known as infidels but as 'people of the book.'

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

So, I take it you don't view us as being in a culture clash with Islam. So be it. Did you read the article?

At least our religous zealots aren't running around blowing up people who don't believe as they believe. And whilst some of them are doing their best to redefine science, there's enough rational people here to keep them from doing that.

America didn't start this violent conflict. The only way we're going to end it is by recognizing it for what it is. While I don't agree with GWB's ways, he at least recognizes it for what it is. Too many people in this country want to talk this problem away. Ain't gonna happen.

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[Skyrad 0]

With Islam no. With the extremists yes. Just as theres not a culture clash with Christianity but there is with Christians who go around bombing abortion clinics and demonstrating at Soldiers funerals.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

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With Islam no. With the extremists yes.

That's the point of the article. While I have absolutely no problem with the peaceful practice of Islam, the religion has produced violent extremists who are operating outside of national boundaries. The entire nature of the religion is such that the moderates will never turn out their radical elements. And even worse, with the Saudis teaching hatred, there will always be radical elements.

I am not advocating nuking them, etc. I am advocating that we accept the situation for what it is, and then come up with appropriate ways to resolve it. You can't solve the problem until you properly define the problem.

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[redlegphi 0]

Except that the difference between Muslim extremists and Peaceful Islam isn't the point of the article at all (at least not as I read it). Quite the contrary, the point of the article seems to be that Islam is a backwards religion that holds its followers back and that can't possibly mesh peacefully with other religions such as Christianity. Ergo the title "Muslim Culture Clash", as opposed to a title such as "Clash with Religious Extremism".

[StreetScooby 5]

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Quite the contrary, the point of the article seems to be that Islam is a backwards religion that holds its followers back and that can't possibly mesh peacefully with other religions such as Christianity. Ergo the title "Muslim Culture Clash", as opposed to a title such as "Clash with Religious Extremism".

I agree with your assessment.

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can't possibly mesh peacefully

I believe peaceful elements could mesh peacefully, but they're not the driving force behind the religion. Islam hasn't had its reformation, yet. Wonder if there is a way to promote that external to the religion? Probably not.

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[Skyrad 0]

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The entire nature of the religion is such that the moderates will never turn out their radical elements. And even worse, with the Saudis teaching hatred, there will always be radical elements.

Incorrect. The US and UK IS responsible for the current situation. Why? Because since the early 80's we have supported and funded those radicals, we've trained them and supported them over the moderates and librals within Islam. Why? because in a shortsighted attempt to use them to destroy the Soviet Union. At best we turned a blind eye to their fund raising efforts here in our western democracys for two decades just as we did when we watched young Jihadists going off to train in the camps. These things weren't secret they were open and known about. They existed with the support of our governments, WE sold the soul of Islam to the extreamists. When the liberals tried to speak up they were silenced, now we want them to trust us overnight while our press villifys ALL Muslims. Thats a pretty tall order for a overnight delivery.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[redlegphi 0]

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I believe peaceful elements could mesh peacefully, but they're not the driving force behind the religion.

The thing with this is that there is no single "driving force behind the religion". There's no central power like the Pope in Islam. Power in Islam, in my experience, is very deceentralized, with local Imams wielding most of the power. This is slightly less true in the Shia branch of the religion, where you have more hierarchical relationships such as the Ayatollah in Iran, but local leadership still remains very powerful.
As I'm sure you're already aware, there are voices for moderation in Islam already. The best way to let this moderation flourish is to offer it very covert support, as overt support just tends to make such moderate appear to be pawns of "the West" and of people who have no real understanding of their religion. In short, the best way to help Islam along is to stop trying to meddle in their internal affairs and allow Islam to evolve naturally. Deal positively with Islamic moderates and hunt down the extremists who pose a threat to us.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Incorrect. The US and UK IS responsible for the current situation. Why? Because since the early 80's we have supported and funded those radicals...

Do you think the radicals didn't exist before we funded them? Clearly they did.

Do you think the radicals will go away if we stop funding them? Clearly they won't.

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Why? because in a shortsighted attempt to use them to destroy the Soviet Union.

Your point is addressing a tiny fraction of this history of this clash. Now that they've been funded, the clash has moved internationally.

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WE sold the soul of Islam to the extreamists.

I think you're wrong here. The extremists have been there long before we can into play. When's the last time a non-Muslim church has been allowed to openly operate in Saudi Arabia?


While I agree with most of your points, I don't see you weaving them together into something that can be used to define the problem properly. Don't get me wrong, I don't know how to define the problem properly either.

Until we (as in Western culture) recognize it as a culture clash, we're not going to be able to define the problem properly. The problem won't be solved, until its defined properly. The paper does a great job at "bracketing" the problem. Now, it's up to us and/or our leaders to further define the problem.

Blaming all this on GWB ain't the problem here.

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[StreetScooby 5]

I take it you're a Muslim? Fantastic! I've got goose bumps, since you're willing to engage in debate in this forum. I'm certain at least I'm going to walk away from this having learned something. It always makes my day when I learn something, so here we go:

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The thing with this is that there is no single "driving force behind the religion". There's no central power like the Pope in Islam. Power in Islam, in my experience, is very deceentralized, with local Imams wielding most of the power. This is slightly less true in the Shia branch of the religion, where you have more hierarchical relationships such as the Ayatollah in Iran, but local leadership still remains very powerful.

Very interesting. I was raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist in the deep south of the US. The "power structure" (for the lack of a better phrase) is similar. Each church/mosque is basically funded by those that worship there.

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As I'm sure you're already aware, there are voices for moderation in Islam already.

Absolutely, and I'm thankful for it.

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The best way to let this moderation flourish is to offer it very covert support, as overt support just tends to make such moderate appear to be pawns of "the West" and of people who have no real understanding of their religion.

What kind of support do they need?

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In short, the best way to help Islam along is to stop trying to meddle in their internal affairs and allow Islam to evolve naturally.

Who is meddling in their internal affairs, and how?

Does letting Islam evolve naturally mean tolerating their radicals whilst waiting for a "Reformation" (my word) to take place?

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Deal positively with Islamic moderates

Agreed.

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and hunt down the extremists who pose a threat to us.

This clearly is the sticking point on the international level. Example - Waziristan. Those folks are living peacefully, but harboring radicals who then leave that enclave to pursue their evil. What needs to be done to encourage them to turn out the radicals?

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[NCclimber 0]

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With Islam no. With the extremists yes. Just as there's not a culture clash with Christianity but there is with Christians who go around bombing abortion clinics and demonstrating at Soldiers funerals.

This kind of comparison is silly. How many people have died as a result of terrorism by Christians? Regarding abortion clinic bombings, I think the number is a low single digit one. How about deaths since 9/11 due to acts of Islamic terrorism? I'm guessing it's in the thousands.

Comparing the two is like comparing a paper cut to a compound fracture.

[StreetScooby 5]

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This kind of comparison is silly.

I agree that the comparison is silly. But, at the same time, Skyrad does provide good input. I'm hoping that, in the context of this thread, we can address the issue for what it is historically, and that means over 100s of years, not 10s of years.

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[StreetScooby 5]

Here's a question - Can the root of the radical extremism be found in the Wahabis?

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[redlegphi 0]

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Very interesting. I was raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist in the deep south of the US. The "power structure" (for the lack of a better phrase) is similar. Each church/mosque is basically funded by those that worship there.

This is my point. Should we claim that there's a culture clash between Baptists and the rest of America because of the antics of the Westboro Baptist Church? Of course not. The entire concept of a clash of cultures between Islam and the West is a) extreme oversimplification and b) false, as Muslims and non-Muslims have been capable of living peacefully together in the past and can continue to do so in modern times.

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What kind of support do they need?

In Reply To
In short, the best way to help Islam along is to stop trying to meddle in their internal affairs and allow Islam to evolve naturally.

Who is meddling in their internal affairs, and how?

Does letting Islam evolve naturally mean tolerating their radicals whilst waiting for a "Reformation" (my word) to take place?

This brings me to my real point. The best way to kill radical Islam is to kill the economic conditions that grow radical Islam. One of the most dangerous areas in Baghdad for Americans is Sadr City. Why? Because it's the most impoverished, due to years of hate and neglect from Saddam. Impoverished people look for a way to change their fortune. This allows people like Muqtada al-Sadr to preach hate to them and rally thousands and even millions to his banner. Hitler did the exact same thing in impoverished post-WW1 Germany. The best way to kill snakes like Sadr and Osama isn't to cut the head from the body, but to cut the body from the head. Without their followers, such men can do little to nothing, and the way to take their followers away is to improve their economies, get them jobs, and generally make them too busy to go about setting roadside bombs or slamming jets into office buildings.
Finally, for the sake of accuracy, I'm Catholic, not Muslim.

[redlegphi 0]

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Here's a question - Can the root of the radical extremism be found in the Wahabis?

The roots of radical extremism can be found in poverty, a general feeling of being unjustly held down by "the West", and the support of various nations for radical Islamist groups who happened to be fighting against a common enemy (the US supporting religious warriors in Afghanistan against the Soviets, the Pakistanis supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.).

[StreetScooby 5]

Thanks very much for responding. Here's some questions.

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The best way to kill radical Islam is to kill the economic conditions that grow radical Islam.

Who is responsible for improving the economic conditions? The West, or their leaders? Clearly, their leaders have failed for a prolonged period of time now, even though they clearly had the resources to not fail. This is discussed in the article mentioned in my original post.

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[StreetScooby 5]

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The roots of radical extremism can be found in poverty,

There was a time recently where I was flying to Memphis, alot. Was staying in Memphis for 2 weeks out of every 4. I hate driving, so I hooked up with a local cab company. Ending up getting to know the owner of the cab company. A really good guy from Lebanon. Over the course of the year that I did this, I got to know the guy pretty well. We had many conversations on this topic. One day, he shared with me his summary of the entire middle east issue.

Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day. In addition to praying, they need to prep for prayer. It takes alot of time out of the day. Compare this to the Jews and Christians, who basically go to church for one hour a week. Who's going to be better at doing business? While the Muslim is praying, the Jews and Christians are out doing business and making money. Thus, there is a severe economic divide between Mulsims and non-Muslims. Who's fault is that?

There's a skydiver I know who is a captain in the merchant marines. Does alot of business in the middle east. He told me a story once. He was bringing a huge ship into dock in Riyadh. Two of his key operators, who were devout Muslims, walked off their posts to go pray. He about shat himself.

I spent a decade in the petrochemical industry working mainly with Exxon. There were many stories about local operators in Saudi plants that refused to take basic safety precautions because of this Inshallah thing.

The lack of personal responsibility in the business area is appalling, even downright ridiculous, IMO.

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[NCclimber 0]

Good point, Scooby.

Has anybody seen any studies on the amount/percentage of oil revenues that are used to build infrastructures and develop self-sufficient economies in the predominantly muslim, oil rich, middle eastern countries? With the billions of net profits these countries bring in, I can't help wondering why most of them remain relatively undeveloped.

[nathaniel 0]

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Thus, there is a severe economic divide between Mulsims and non-Muslims.

IMO the economics issue is more macro than micro. For hundreds of years the parts of the koran that prohibited usury were interpreted to mean basically no interest at all.

Which puts quite a damper on banking. If I understand it correctly, it's only in the past 30 years or so that western banking companies have found ways to concoct instruments acceptable to hard-line Islamic governments.

It's not a problem for moderates and "westernized" individuals of course.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[StreetScooby 5]

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If I understand it correctly, it's only in the past 30 years or so that western banking companies have found ways to concoct instruments acceptable to hard-line Islamic governments.

Yep. They basically "rent" the money, or something like that.

Anytime you take a literal interpreation of a book that was written hundreds of years ago, where the audience was a bunch of goat herders, you're going to have issues.

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[Skyrad 0]

Of course they existed, we just put them into a position of power which attracted a whole lot more of them.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Here's a question - Can the root of the radical extremism be found in the Wahabis?

In a word YES.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

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In a word YES.

So, that would bracket the problem definition even better. Which raises some questions:

1) Who are the Wahabis?
2) Why are they so "influential"?

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