All Dem Senators are Crooks

[wmw999 2,588]

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Get back to us when you check out the deficit as a % of GDP.

As my father would say, it's not just the deficit, it's the debt, dammit. But actually, that website does reference national debt as a % of GDP. Says so right on the front. Not the deficit, though.

That was an interesting post that Lawrocket had yesterday (in another thread). And his numbers a a little different (but not a lot) from this graph.

But in this case, the chart does, in fact, show debt as related to GDP. And it's horrendous, and has gotten more horrendous under some administrations than others. We could look at the deficit if we want to focus on fault, and are entirely in the past. But if we want to focus on the problems of the nation (which are something we can address), then we should keep our eyes on the debt.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

Debt is a sound way to finance good investments. Good investments induce or foster economic growth – for individuals, for businesses, for local governments, and for the federal government. In other words, good investments make us wealthier, and debt is a sound way to finance good investments; therefore, debt -- aka, using "other people's money" -- can make us wealthier.

Deficits and debt are not the monsters that vote-seeking politicians and donation-seeking special interest groups are portraying it to be. We shouldn't be worrying about deficits and debt; we should instead be worrying about how to achieve non-inflationary growth in national income -- such that national income grows at least as fast as the debt grows. The private sector provides most of the wealth and growth -- however, government does some investing, too. It invests in different things (vs. the private sector), but it invests nonetheless.


Debt is the wrong enemy. Americans should welcome the growth-enhancing lower tax rates enabled by prudent borrowing. Unfortunately, growth --our forgotten friend -- never seems to come up in the debate. Let's change that. Let's get the national debate off the deficit/debt sidetrack, and onto the right track: economic growth.

Guess what the lenders think is one of the safest investments on the entire planet: that's right – bonds offered by the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America. Federal debt. Lenders worldwide are glad that the USA wants to borrow some of their money. Why? Because they know with certainty that they'll get their interest payments and their principal back in full, and on time.

[kallend 2,148]

You have to work hard to find a parameter that makes your hero look anything but a total incompetent and a liar, don't you?

" ... deficit will be small and short term", GWB, SOTU January 2002.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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I mean a fair job paying fair wages, against the concept of Bush's rewriting of the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act, I mean the constant shooting down of the minimum wage increases that the Reps do to the extent individual states have upped it on their own, I mean providing health insurance to those that can't afford it. All these things the Repblicans try to make exclusive via their flowery term, "Personal responsibility.

I work for myself as a carpenter doing repairs and small renovations. I am never out of work. If I'm not in motion, I'm not making money.

If employees learned this principle, instead of thinking that an employer owes them something just for being, then more money would be made, thus increasing their chance of a raise.

I dare say that the average employee barely works six out of the eight hours that they are paid for, government workers excluded. They're lucky to do four out of eight, thus cheating their employers[you and me] out of their money.

If you are 30 yrs. old, and still only earning minimum wage, that really is a personal problem.

Improvment at any given skill can only be acheived by the person involved. No one can open your head and pour it in.

In the end it all does come down to personal resposnibility.

I notice a lot of posts, especially in Bonfire, made by people who are supposedly at work.

Look at it this way. If you are making $10 an hour, and only producing 4 hr. a day, you're actually making $20 an hr.You're also cutting you company's profits by that much.

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I work for myself as a carpenter doing repairs and small renovations. I am never out of work. If I'm not in motion, I'm not making money.

That explains volumes; in Capitalistic nations, there is a divide between worker and employer - this concept is learned in grade school. In Socialistic nations that divide is less considering the government ensures the employer pays for medical coverage via taxes. The government enacts laws ensuring the employer has a voice, in teh US, turds like the one we have allows some employers to forego even payin overtime while requiring. Just skim over that one or throw your blaonket, "The employer owes the worker nothing."

The government is the entity responsible for establishing the rules between employer and employee and that has gobe the way of teh employer since Fascist Pig Reagan. We can talk all this BS about no need for a union, but when the turd in chief and his 2 predicesors proactively slam the worker, the government is intervieining in a way that leads to 40+ million to be w/o medical coverage, me included. In a civilized country there must be rules governing what the employers must do and what the employees must do, that is one of the things that seperates us from 3rd world countries where workers work for 1$/hr. DOn;t think US employers would do it if they could? Well, look at restuarant employees and say that.

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If employees learned this principle, instead of thinking that an employer owes them something just for being, then more money would be made, thus increasing their chance of a raise.

Well, just as cops are crooked due to the courts, employers are often scum due to the NLRB. It's the rules and the governing bodies that are the problem. Increasing teh chance of a raise? Give me a break. Employers are going to scre employees if they can.

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I dare say that the average employee barely works six out of the eight hours that they are paid for, government workers excluded. They're lucky to do four out of eight, thus cheating their employers[you and me] out of their money.

I agree with most of that. And employers are going to give employees as little as possible. That's this divide we enjoy in a fascist (pro-corporate, corporatism - look it up) and capitalist workplace. Don;t hate the player hate the game. By that I mean it's the rules, not the managers, not the workers. The US system is a litle more viable than the Communist system. OH, and the government's reaction to 1/2 the bankruptcies being due to medical bills, tighten BK laws. Again, the system, not the players.

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If you are 30 yrs. old, and still only earning minimum wage, that really is a personal problem.

What if you are early 20's with a family?

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Improvment at any given skill can only be acheived by the person involved. No one can open your head and pour it in.

But when the rules are set up so that success is difficult and near impossible, your point becomes moot.

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In the end it all does come down to personal resposnibility.

That's the Repubs mantra for saying they don;t want to hear you whine about not having medical coverage.

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I notice a lot of posts, especially in Bonfire, made by people who are supposedly at work.

Look at it this way. If you are making $10 an hour, and only producing 4 hr. a day, you're actually making $20 an hr.You're also cutting you company's profits by that much.

Good, fuck teh employer! See, it works both ways. Employers have the ability to set the stage and I've seen a couple businesses that care about their employees, these employers don't fuck the their employees. The employer sets the stage, so if they get fucked, fuck em

[Gravitymaster 0]

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You have to work hard to find a parameter that makes your hero look anything but a total incompetent and a liar, don't you?

" ... deficit will be small and short term", GWB, SOTU January 2002.

Truth hurts doesn't it?

[wmw999 2,588]

Even looking at that graph, and understanding the impact of 9/11, the picture is awful. Yes, we're not as bad off as we could have been. And it's not getting worse as quickly as it was.

But it still sucks. And while you might embrace debt, I'll bet you pay off your own debts.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,148]

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You have to work hard to find a parameter that makes your hero look anything but a total incompetent and a liar, don't you?

" ... deficit will be small and short term", GWB, SOTU January 2002.

Truth hurts doesn't it?

Predictions of the future are now "truth"?

"Small and short term" does not, in my opinion, include the largest deficit in history, which still exists and is projected to last until after Bush leaves office. Bush's projections have proven themselves to be quite surreal (like his projected outcomes of his Iraq adventure).

If course, it all depends on what your definition of "small" is.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

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Even looking at that graph, and understanding the impact of 9/11, the picture is awful. Yes, we're not as bad off as we could have been. And it's not getting worse as quickly as it was.

But it still sucks. And while you might embrace debt, I'll bet you pay off your own debts.

Wendy W.

Let's not forget that Bush's "small and short term" statement was made after 9/11/2001. 9/11 is not an excuse.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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What is also apparent is that the republican members here and in general are defending Foley, but the libs police their own, as with Lieberman. Have you noticed that, the Dems police their own, but the Repubs back their own and probably adminish in private? That's the difference here, but the double standard works both ways.

Earth to Lucky... Earth to Lucky... Come in Lucky.

"the republican members here and in general are defending Foley"? You've got to be kidding! Several people have tried to clarify what he did, in contrast to the dishonest condemnations made by others. I can't recall any instance where someone has actually defended him.

Your comparison using Lieberman is laughable. He is not being policed for unethical behavior. He's being attacked for not toeing the party line.

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"the republican members here and in general are defending Foley"? You've got to be kidding! Several people have tried to clarify what he did, in contrast to the dishonest condemnations made by others. I can't recall any instance where someone has actually defended him.

Asking what criminal charge, asking if the kid was actually 18, trying to pull Dems into this are all ways of defense. Hysterical that you think I'm from another planet when you can;t understand this. Fro the record, not that it needs to be addressed, but you should understand the inherent relationship relegates this to a matter of corruption.

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Your comparison using Lieberman is laughable. He is not being policed for unethical behavior. He's being attacked for not toeing the party line.

The context was given to explain how the Dems will condemn their own in a general context, the Repubs defend the individual to defend the party. Try to keep the args in context. Again, with the repubs, it doesn't matter what the rub they defend their problems in a utilitarian, "defend the party" manner.

[Lucky... 0]

Perhaps you forgot, but thee wasn't a deficit under the latter years of Clinton.

[Lucky... 0]

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Get back to us when you check out the deficit as a % of GDP.

OK, I'm back.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

It actually is better with Bush 2 than with his dad or crusty,but still in teh red. Quit bragging that your failures are less severe than previously projected, your party's failures are still failures.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Even looking at that graph, and understanding the impact of 9/11, the picture is awful. Yes, we're not as bad off as we could have been. And it's not getting worse as quickly as it was.

But it still sucks. And while you might embrace debt, I'll bet you pay off your own debts.

Wendy W.

Depends on what type of debt you are talking about. If it's credit card debt that was used to purchase an HDTV, then yes. OTOH it makes more sense to tap my margin account with my brokerage to invest in a well researched stock than it does to wait until I have the cash in hand due to payments on my credit card.

What my broker is saying by establishing the account it "We believe in you and your abilities and are willing to invest in them. This is what countries that invest in Govt. bonds are saying to the US. I can't imagine where anyone got the idea that all debt is bad.

[wmw999 2,588]

How long do you carry that margin debt? Do you make sure it's paid off periodically from the proceeds, or when your stockbroker calls you with another tip, do you just buy again, and then rejoice that your total stock worth is now (X) dollars higher, not mentioning that part of that (X) is encumbered because of the margin debt?

Debt is a great way to manage some things. But it's best to make sure that you always own it, rather than the other way around.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Get back to us when you check out the deficit as a % of GDP.

OK, I'm back.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

It actually is better with Bush 2 than with his dad or crusty,but still in teh red. Quit bragging that your failures are less severe than previously projected, your party's failures are still failures.

Post all the graphs you want. It still doesn't change the fact that the average per year deficit % for the past 40 years has been 2.3% and for 2006 it's only 1.9% of GDP. It would be considerably lower than that if not for Katrina.

All in all tax revenues are at an all time high due to the Bush tax cuts and the stock market is kicking ass.

[Lucky... 0]

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Debt is a sound way to finance good investments. Good investments induce or foster economic growth – for individuals, for businesses, for local governments, and for the federal government. In other words, good investments make us wealthier, and debt is a sound way to finance good investments; therefore, debt -- aka, using "other people's money" -- can make us wealthier.

Deficits and debt are not the monsters that vote-seeking politicians and donation-seeking special interest groups are portraying it to be. We shouldn't be worrying about deficits and debt; we should instead be worrying about how to achieve non-inflationary growth in national income -- such that national income grows at least as fast as the debt grows. The private sector provides most of the wealth and growth -- however, government does some investing, too. It invests in different things (vs. the private sector), but it invests nonetheless.


Debt is the wrong enemy. Americans should welcome the growth-enhancing lower tax rates enabled by prudent borrowing. Unfortunately, growth --our forgotten friend -- never seems to come up in the debate. Let's change that. Let's get the national debate off the deficit/debt sidetrack, and onto the right track: economic growth.

Guess what the lenders think is one of the safest investments on the entire planet: that's right – bonds offered by the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America. Federal debt. Lenders worldwide are glad that the USA wants to borrow some of their money. Why? Because they know with certainty that they'll get their interest payments and their principal back in full, and on time.

R U F'n serious? Explain the 20% of our GNP that goes to pay the INTEREST on the debt. Explainhow the dollar is getting kicked in teh ass by the EURO and catching ground from teh Canadian dollar. Truth is, cutting taxes for the rich, cutting benefits for the poor leads to class disparity, which is the goal of the right wing. I can understand when rich repubs do this, but when they call in moral fanatics and poor repubs it baffles me.

This whole process is just a way of shifting power from the gov and giving it to the corporations and other rich. That's all this process does, the killing of labor unions should make that clear. The Dems support labor unions, they are more for the working man. This utopian horseshit about the working man will rise and then besubject to the taxes, hence let's cut them before he makes his money is a way to pull in the poor who may be stupid eneough to buy into that.

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Debt is the wrong enemy. Americans should welcome the growth-enhancing lower tax rates enabled by prudent borrowing. Unfortunately, growth --our forgotten friend -- never seems to come up in the debate. Let's change that. Let's get the national debate off the deficit/debt sidetrack, and onto the right track: economic growth.

Man, this is scary shit. If you wrote this, you scare me . If you cut-n-pasted it, well,ok. If our debt grows too highwe will be cut off from the rest of the world as for trade for 2 reasons:

1) We can;t pay our bill

2) THe US dollar will be confederate cash

From teh party of decencty and personal repsonsibility, to say fuck who cares about being in debt is insane. Can you guys stay on one track? Personal repsonsibility means paying your bills.

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Guess what the lenders think is one of the safest investments on the entire planet: that's right – bonds offered by the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America.

Right, they will be good unless the entire monetary system implodes - they will be cashed, but the problem is that they actually devalue. What is it, 10 years to double in value? That's probably behind the increase in the cost of living. SO they are safe in that they will be cashed, but if you worked for an investment firm and suggested that you would be fired.

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Lenders worldwide are glad that the USA wants to borrow some of their money. Why? Because they know with certainty that they'll get their interest payments and their principal back in full, and on time.

That's why the value of the dollar shrinks under a Repub? That's why when you travel to Europe, you can expect to pay 30-50$ for a cab ride, $10 for a beer - the exchange rate sucks so American currency is cheap.

This is a scary deceptive post that you entered.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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How long do you carry that margin debt? Do you make sure it's paid off periodically from the proceeds, or when your stockbroker calls you with another tip, do you just buy again, and then rejoice that your total stock worth is now (X) dollars higher, not mentioning that part of that (X) is encumbered because of the margin debt?

Debt is a great way to manage some things. But it's best to make sure that you always own it, rather than the other way around.

Wendy W.

I make periodic payments on it depending on the market conditions. The point is without borrowing money, my net worth would be considerably lower than it is. The % of gain in net worth is X times greater than the interest on the margin account. The economic surges in the US economy would not be as high as they are if we weren't borrowing money. The problem comes when the money isn't invested well ie. spent on wastful feel good programs that produce no return on investment.

[NCclimber 0]

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Perhaps you forgot, but thee wasn't a deficit under the latter years of Clinton.

Those supposed surpluses were merely forecasts. The last time we posted an end-of-year surplus was in the 60s.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Debt is a sound way to finance good investments. Good investments induce or foster economic growth – for individuals, for businesses, for local governments, and for the federal government. In other words, good investments make us wealthier, and debt is a sound way to finance good investments; therefore, debt -- aka, using "other people's money" -- can make us wealthier.

Deficits and debt are not the monsters that vote-seeking politicians and donation-seeking special interest groups are portraying it to be. We shouldn't be worrying about deficits and debt; we should instead be worrying about how to achieve non-inflationary growth in national income -- such that national income grows at least as fast as the debt grows. The private sector provides most of the wealth and growth -- however, government does some investing, too. It invests in different things (vs. the private sector), but it invests nonetheless.


Debt is the wrong enemy. Americans should welcome the growth-enhancing lower tax rates enabled by prudent borrowing. Unfortunately, growth --our forgotten friend -- never seems to come up in the debate. Let's change that. Let's get the national debate off the deficit/debt sidetrack, and onto the right track: economic growth.

Guess what the lenders think is one of the safest investments on the entire planet: that's right – bonds offered by the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America. Federal debt. Lenders worldwide are glad that the USA wants to borrow some of their money. Why? Because they know with certainty that they'll get their interest payments and their principal back in full, and on time.

R U F'n serious? Explain the 20% of our GNP that goes to pay the INTEREST on the debt. Explainhow the dollar is getting kicked in teh ass by the EURO and catching ground from teh Canadian dollar. Truth is, cutting taxes for the rich, cutting benefits for the poor leads to class disparity, which is the goal of the right wing. I can understand when rich repubs do this, but when they call in moral fanatics and poor repubs it baffles me.

This whole process is just a way of shifting power from the gov and giving it to the corporations and other rich. That's all this process does, the killing of labor unions should make that clear. The Dems support labor unions, they are more for the working man. This utopian horseshit about the working man will rise and then besubject to the taxes, hence let's cut them before he makes his money is a way to pull in the poor who may be stupid eneough to buy into that.

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Debt is the wrong enemy. Americans should welcome the growth-enhancing lower tax rates enabled by prudent borrowing. Unfortunately, growth --our forgotten friend -- never seems to come up in the debate. Let's change that. Let's get the national debate off the deficit/debt sidetrack, and onto the right track: economic growth.

Man, this is scary shit. If you wrote this, you scare me . If you cut-n-pasted it, well,ok. If our debt grows too highwe will be cut off from the rest of the world as for trade for 2 reasons:

1) We can;t pay our bill

2) THe US dollar will be confederate cash

From teh party of decencty and personal repsonsibility, to say fuck who cares about being in debt is insane. Can you guys stay on one track? Personal repsonsibility means paying your bills.

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Guess what the lenders think is one of the safest investments on the entire planet: that's right – bonds offered by the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America.

Right, they will be good unless the entire monetary system implodes - they will be cashed, but the problem is that they actually devalue. What is it, 10 years to double in value? That's probably behind the increase in the cost of living. SO they are safe in that they will be cashed, but if you worked for an investment firm and suggested that you would be fired.

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Lenders worldwide are glad that the USA wants to borrow some of their money. Why? Because they know with certainty that they'll get their interest payments and their principal back in full, and on time.

That's why the value of the dollar shrinks under a Repub? That's why when you travel to Europe, you can expect to pay 30-50$ for a cab ride, $10 for a beer - the exchange rate sucks so American currency is cheap.

This is a scary deceptive post that you entered.

Then we just have a difference in ideology. I believe in growing our way out of debt combined with reduced spending. Apparently you believe in just reducing spending.

[Lucky... 0]

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How long do you carry that margin debt? Do you make sure it's paid off periodically from the proceeds, or when your stockbroker calls you with another tip, do you just buy again, and then rejoice that your total stock worth is now (X) dollars higher, not mentioning that part of that (X) is encumbered because of the margin debt?

Debt is a great way to manage some things. But it's best to make sure that you always own it, rather than the other way around.

Wendy W.

It's just bizzare to rationalize runaway debt that amounts to $28,000 for every man, woman and child as being a good thing. What it does is depletes the government, shifting power to those who have cash. It sets up either a fiscal tryranny and/or a class war real well.

28k, so a family of 4 owes over 100k, which is unreal. I like when Republimaggot politicians say how the government is holding on to your money. How stupid is that? We have been a debtor nation since after Andrew Jackson; we have their money.

[Lucky... 0]

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Get back to us when you check out the deficit as a % of GDP.

OK, I'm back.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

It actually is better with Bush 2 than with his dad or crusty,but still in teh red. Quit bragging that your failures are less severe than previously projected, your party's failures are still failures.

Post all the graphs you want. It still doesn't change the fact that the average per year deficit % for the past 40 years has been 2.3% and for 2006 it's only 1.9% of GDP. It would be considerably lower than that if not for Katrina.

All in all tax revenues are at an all time high due to the Bush tax cuts and the stock market is kicking ass.

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Post all the graphs you want.

Yes, posted facts are overrated.

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It still doesn't change the fact that the average per year deficit % for the past 40 years has been 2.3% and for 2006 it's only 1.9% of GDP.

OH, so you're averaging the Republican's failures with Clinton's successes to water down your party's failures.... I see.

Alright, your buddy is only fucking a debt-strapped economy to 1.9% loss, great - let's party. You know you have a loser for a pres when he celebrates losing less than previous years.

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It would be considerably lower than that if not for Katrina.

This man-made war costs more than Katrina and the war only accounts for <15% of teh total debt increase. No, it's more shifting of power from the gov to the corp.

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All in all tax revenues are at an all time high due to the Bush tax cuts and the stock market is kicking ass.

Are they, show cites. Again, if they are it kind of defeats your arg since taxed revs are high, yet we are still slamming further in debt.

The stock market isn't as well as it was with Clinton. The Dow is high, but the Nasdaq is < 1/2 of what it was under Clinton and teh S&P is what, 2/3 of what it was.

Furthermore, when the stock market was doing well under Clinton, help wanted ads were an entire paper, now their but a home-n-garden section by volume. So what does all this mean? The rich are doing much better under Bush, the poor doing worse.

Deal with it, YOUR PARTY IS ON THE WAY OUT. People have finally dropped this horseshit correlation between patriotism and Republicanness. BUH-BYE.

[Lucky... 0]

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Perhaps you forgot, but thee wasn't a deficit under the latter years of Clinton.

Those supposed surpluses were merely forecasts. The last time we posted an end-of-year surplus was in the 60s.

Here's a chart of the actual deficit/surplus; net gain / loss. Argue this one.

http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm

Here's one of my favorites that depicts the debt and we know the deficits make up the debt.

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

[jcd11235 0]

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Tax revenues increased 11.8% while spending only increased 7.4% and somehow you view that as bad? WOW!!!

Yes, I view a $248 BILLION (that's 248,000 times $1 million) deficit as a bad thing.

It is laughable and hypocritical that anyone from a party claiming to support personal responsibility can defend such atrocious budgeting.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Lucky... 0]

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Then we just have a difference in ideology. I believe in growing our way out of debt combined with reduced spending. Apparently you believe in just reducing spending.

But growing that includes huge debt isn't really growing, it's a recipe for failure. Mass spending to appear to be growing is a facade and Fascit pig Reagan started that shit. The bill comes due eventually and there will be a Dem there that has the balls to raise taxes on the rich to fix it for the next Repub to fuck it all up again.

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Apparently you believe in just reducing spending.

NO, I believe in reduced spending on shit like wars while increasing spending for social programs, as well, huge increases in taxes on corps and teh rich, just as Clinton did.

[Lucky... 0]

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It is laughable and hypocritical that anyone from a party claiming to support personal responsibility can defend such atrocious budgeting.

I've raised that several times, yet they run like theives to that point.

[jcd11235 0]

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You seem to be overlooking that we just went through the second largest recession since the Great Depression. It came after the greatest bull market in history. Yes, taking out the highs from 2000 is a big deal. And let's not overlook how the economy done over the last four years. From what I see, it's doing great.

What always amazes me is how much Clinton's "budget surpluses" get tossed around. Those are essentially made up numbers... pretend surplus... that were never realized. Pro formas are great, but what matters are the actual results.

How much of the Dow growth came from inflation and deficit spending?

As far as how the economy is doing, I've yet to talk to anyone who is better off now than they were when Clinton was in office. I know I certainly cannot find work now that pays as much as I could easily make then. Our economic growth under W has come at the expense of the poor and the middle class.

I like how you think numbers showing how well W is doing are real, but numbers verifying Clinton's superior handling of the economy are made up.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!