happythoughts 0 #26 October 9, 2006 I wouldn't argue the particular historical actions of one church. Those are generally driven politically. For a church to exist, it must be protected by the political establishment. Governments are protected by armies. It is self-interest. 200 years ago, the doctrine of the church was lock-step with the political plan. "Want to get a divorce in England? We'll need our own church." I am basically talking about doctrine. In the US, there is 50 kazillion Protestant demoninations. Some are "fundamentalist" (meaning we can't get along with more than 75 other people). They don't always agree politically. Most of the time non-violently. "Ok, Catholics to line 1. Baptists line 2... And the correct religions is ... all the rest of you - step into one of these handbaskets." Yep, Satan is fooling a lot of people out there. "Our doctrine will say that we can't get married, we wear dresses, and live together. If others do that, it's a sin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,646 #27 October 9, 2006 Quote"Our doctrine will say that we can't get married, we wear dresses, and live together. If others do that, it's a sin." coughsplutterDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #28 October 9, 2006 I dont think you know your bible very well. Not following jesus is covered by this quote: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6) Not suprisingly many many Christians have burnt those who dont follow their religiou beliefs. Presumably Jesus could see the future, he knew that people would be inspired by this quote and torture the unbelivers with fire yet he said it anyway. What an asshole, hows that for blasphemy? I couldnt open your link, sorry. Maybe you can give us your own definition. whatever it is you cant escape the fact the bible says its a worse sin than genocide, which of course is not just condoned but postivley encouraged. I'll give you another biblical quote just in case things aren't clear enough already: John,14 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #29 October 9, 2006 QuoteYou are not answering the question. You say Christ offers forgiveness for both sins but the bible does not. So either the authors of the bible are liars or mistaken, which is it? Furthermore you give us the example of a relative killed. But what if the victims were unknown to you? Which do you think is the worse crime , the murder and torture of many people or simple disbelief in the holy spirit? Please tell us your opinion. ..Murder seem worse if i think about it but i believe that you are looking at this from one side only as you are asking me to answer the question from a more physical-human and more emotional perspective.Why would Jesus rate this sin as he does ? I don't know and i don't know the importance and overall effect of it ...all i know He does not want us to curse the Holy Spirit and that's why we should not do it ... for example you do not know or know God for that matter and you kill someone the Bible says that God offers forgiveness if you truly repent from that sin , it makes sense to me .. now on the other hand if you don't know anything about God or the Holy Spirit etc.. why would you reject them anyway ? It has to be deliberate from my point of view . I believe that the Bible refers to blashphemy as deliberately rejecting by cursing the Holy Spirit from your life , basically total rejection not just unbelief as is your case ..you're still OK bro If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #30 October 9, 2006 "Murder seem worse if i think about it but i believe that you are looking at this from one side only as you are asking me to answer the question from a more physical-human and more emotional perspective" Its nice to see you have higher morals than Jesus. Shame he doesnt agree with you. Ill let you why I think blasphemy is the only unforgivable sin in the bible . Its becuase when you are setting up a cult you want to make sure your followers are obedient and dont doubt you. That is your key to power. That is why we have the utterly ridicuouls notion in the bible that genocide is forgivable but blasphemy is not. Now given what the bible says surely it would make sense to have the laws of your country (I'm going to take a wild guess that you are American) changed so that blasphemy has a higher penalty than mass murder, would you do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #31 October 9, 2006 QuoteI think it's all about your personal interpretation Quote...The fact that you believe that you are committing blasphemy because you don't believe in the Holy Spirit shows me that you make up your own interpretation cause nowhere in the Bible it says that if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. In one post you state that it is "personal interpretation" and then in another you rail him on his personal interpretation!!!! There is no such thing as personal interpretation in regards to the bible if one is inclined to be religous. You either follow it as it is written or you face the fact that you only use it as you see fit. If it is the latter, then write your own book."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #32 October 9, 2006 Why did we stop calling it the "Holy Ghost" and start calling it the "Holy Spirit"?' Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #33 October 9, 2006 Quote Did you read this ? http://net-burst.net/guilty/sin.htm ...The fact that you believe that you are committing blasphemy because you don't believe in the Holy Spirit shows me that you make up your own interpretation cause nowhere in the Bible it says that if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. . I think you have confused yourself with that triple negative. I don't think it means what you meant it to mean. And you still haven't answered the question.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,646 #34 October 9, 2006 Quote Why did we stop calling it the "Holy Ghost" and start calling it the "Holy Spirit"? It's a translation. As languages change over time then the words that best capture the original intent of the text will also change (ever tried to struggle through a 1920's version of some ancient Greek philosophy? It is a mission). In any case I don't really care what they call it - its still imaginary.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #35 October 9, 2006 QuoteEverybody seems to be convinced that "their church" is the correct one. They also are just as convinced that the others are evil. "Everybody" is a strong word. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #36 October 9, 2006 >Everybody seems to be convinced that "their church" is the correct >one. They also are just as convinced that the others are evil. ?? I don't think my church is the correct one. It's just one of many. Understanding comes from many sources, and it's the understanding - not what color robe the priest wears, or what sex they are, or even what they're called - that's the important part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #37 October 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteEverybody seems to be convinced that "their church" is the correct one. They also are just as convinced that the others are evil. "Everybody" is a strong word. If your preacher isn't convinced that he/she has the correct interpretation of the , then they suck at being a preacher. "Ummm... last Sunday I told you some incorrect stuff. If you did it, you may be goin' ta hell." What kind of church has a disclaimer? "Sorry, I've studied our text for 12 years and I have degree in theology, but I can't give you a clear guideline here..." And, if someone else has a conflicting version, they must be wrong. If they are teaching something that conflicts with The Truth, they must be minions of Satan. Seems pretty clear. When dealing with moral absolutes, it's right or wrong. (Especially those Methodists who drink and dance) "Well, stealing a little bit is ok. Go ahead, eat some food in the grocery store..." (Cheating the IRS is not really stealing. It's your money) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #38 October 9, 2006 I am reading Misquoting Jesus- The story behind who changed the bible and why- by Bart D. Ehrman I have quoted below some of his writing. >Authors of the new testament? It has been clear to most scholars since the 19th century that Mark was the fisrt gospel written, and that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as one of the sources for their stories about Jesus. Mark portrays Jesus as in deep agony in the death, "falling on his face in prayer, and beseeching god three times to take away the cup of his suffering; on his way to be crucified he was silent the entire time, and he says nothing when mocked by everyone, including both robbers, until the very end when he calls out in anguish, "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" He then utters a loud cry and dies. Luke had this version of the story available to him, but he modified it significantly. He removed Mark's comment that Jesus was highly distraught, as well as Jesus's own comment that he was sorrowful unto death. Rather than falling on his face, Jesus simply kneels, and instead of pleading three times to have the cup removed, he asks only once, prefacing his prayer with "if it be your will." He is not at all silent on the way to his crucifixion but speaks to a group of weeping women, telling them to grieve not for him but for the fate to befall themselves. While being crucified he is not silent but asks God to forgive those responsible, "for they don't know what they're doing." One of the robbers mocks him (not two as in Mark), the other asks for his help, and Jesus replies in full assurance of what was happening, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." He didn't ask god why he had been forsaken- there is no cry of dereliction- he instead prays in full confidence of god's support and care: "Father, into your hands I commend my Spirit." Luke wanted to teach a different lesson, for him Jesus was not in despair. Maybe he wanted to give an example to persecuted christians about how they themselves should face death? Luke changed the tradition he inherited. John's gospel is quite different than each of the other (he never has Jesus tell a parable, or cast out a demon; and in his account, unlike the others, Jesus gives long discourses about his identity and does "signs" in order to prove that what he says about himself is true. The message of Paul is both like and unlike what we find in the Gospels. The message of James differs from the message of Acts; the message of John;.... Each of these authors was human, each of them was putting the tradition he inherited into his own words. There must be thousands of ways people interpret the book of Revelation, consider all the different Christian denominations, filled with intelligent and well-meaning people who base their views of how the church should be organized and function on the bible----- yet all of them come to radically different conclusions (Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Appalachian snake-handlers, Greek Orthodox..........on and on Listen to discussions of homosexuality, women in the church, abortion, divorce, American foreign policy, with all sides quoting the same bible, and sometimes even the same verse... certainly the texts have to be interpreted to make sense.> freethefly wrote: QuoteThere is no such thing as personal interpretation in regards to the bible if one is inclined to be religous. You either follow it as it is written or you face the fact that you only use it as you see fit. If it is the latter, then write your own book. Even if god had inspired the original words, we do not have the original words. How does one become convinced that the bible is the inerrant word of god? Do the biblical words themselves come to us by inspiration of the Holy Spirit? For almost fifteen hundred years manuscripts were hand copied by scribes who were deeply influenced by the cultural, theological, and political disputes of their day. SMileseustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #39 October 10, 2006 Misquoting Jesus is indeed an excellent book and should be compulsory reading for all Fundamentalist Christians.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #40 October 10, 2006 I'm no American ..actually from South Africa and yes we would like someone to please come and build a nice kick ass windtunnel for us as we really need one otherwise i need to spend millions traveling to go train in one elsewhere....i'll swap whoever for a few lions Getting back to the "wrong church" thing ... i'll be honest , i have not been in a church for the last 4 years but still pray and ask the Holy Spirit(God) to guide me and help me on life's bumpy roads etc... From my experience ... i have strayed from a good life and was down and out many times and everytime i prayed to God and asked for his help and forgiveness down in my little black hole He did help me straight away in such a way that it can only be seen as a miracle , this happened over and over for years until i realised that He is real. So what different churches believe and when it comes to their customs etc...and and how certain people interpret the Bible is but detail to a much bigger picture and it is this detail that people try and figure out everyday and prove right and prove wrong and in their confusion miss the point ..Yes the Bible is there as a guide for us and but once you have experienced God in your life personally nothing else really matters If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #41 October 10, 2006 QuoteIf yours is the "ONE TRUE CHURCH", what does that make the others? Not true (aka FALSE), or not churches? churches? what about the WTO interpretation of scripture? -The WTO is god's organization on earth.... The concept that holds millions of JW's captive is their belief that the Watchtower Organization (WTO) is "god's chosen organization" as Jesus came invisibly [second coming]- to appoint them this position in the spring of 1919. This is of course, in fufillment of the scripture in Watchtower theology- (their interpretation of)Matthew 24: 45-47 God teaches them what he wants them to believe; that all of god's directions to mankind comes through this one and only "channel of communication." (termed as "old light" and "new light"..food served at the right time...or "proper and timely spiritual food.") They refer to their concept as "The only true religion." JW's consider themselves and their appointed 144,000 faithful and discreet slave class- "in the truth", everyone else on this earth is considered "worldly"....(work of satan) They completely accept that there is nowhere else to go, or that there is no other acceptable way to worship god. Amazingly, the scripture that WTO has always used to prove that there is nowhere else to go--- is the very scripture that says there is: John 6:68 "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." The WTO teaches that Peter's response says: John 6:66-69 No Where Else To Go We will be impelled to serve god loyal with his organization if we remember that there is nowhere else to go for life eternal. On page 18 March 15 1988 Watchtower their explanation goes like this: "Peter knew there was nowhere else to go because Jesus had "sayings of everlasting life. Are you as determined to remain loyal to Jehovah's organization?" Even if a JW looks at John 6:68 they are unable to notice what it says re: Lord, where (not whom) shall we go away to? The WTO has sayings of everlasting life. The WTO is the only alternative to Satan's organizations. No matter how many false teachings or prophecies the WTO has ever had, they all must be explained in such a way so the WTO still ends up being god's organization. In their way of thinking they are voluntarily giving their unquestioning submission to god by being submissive to his organization. SMileseustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #42 October 10, 2006 how do you know it was god that helped you? Imagine this 10 million people enter the lottery, they all prey to god to win. A few lucky people end up sharing a masive jackpot, they're prayers have been answered. They will be convinced of it, doesn't make it so. A lot of experiences seem very real when in fact they are not. A good example is sleep paraylsis. This is a a state where a person awakes but cannot move . It is often assocaited with hallcuinations. These halluciantions seem very real especially when interpreted in a cultural context. See below an abreviated version of Wikipidea's list of cultural interpretations of sleep paraylis: In Chinese folk culture, sleep paralysis is referred as "gǔi yà chúang" (鬼压床), literally: "Ghost press bed": 鬼: ghost, 压: press, 床: bed. The belief is that a spirit or ghost is sitting or lying on top of the individual while they were sleeping, causing the sleep paralysis. This is thought to be a minor body possession by the forces from the dead, and usually doesn't cause any harm to the victim. In India, there are two thoughts about sleep paralysis. One of the signs of approaching enlightenment is "witnessing sleep," that is to say, being lucid in sleep — such as with sleep paralysis. It was also believed within the movement that rakshasas (Hindu demons) may assail those making strides towards their own enlightenment and the good of all mankind. The other thought is a female entity, called Mohini (a demoness from the underworld), comes into the night-time world by means of ascending through a deep well. She is enchantingly beautiful, yet simultaneously horrific, unearthly, and deadly. Like her British Isles counterparts, she also seeks a male lover and human genetic material, presumably for the purpose of bearing a hybrid demon/human child. In Japan, sleep paralysis is referred to as kanashibari (金縛り, literally: "bound or fastened in metal": kana: metal, shibaru: to bind, tie, fasten") In Newfoundland, as a visit from the "old hag" (Irish: Ag Rog) In Mexico, as subida del muerto (the dead climbing on top) In Greek, as mora (in Greek: μώρα), the name cames has a Slavic root. The current popular interpretation in the West at the moment is being kidnapped by aliens. You see the pattern, abnormal activity occurs and we interpret it within our cultural context. So when you say you feel god, you really can't be sure thats whats going on. Although Im sure it seemed real to you. Is it a coincidence that most people inherit the religion of their parents? Im sure that suicide bombers, medieval torturers, conquering genocidal armies all feel god is talking to them also. What makes you so different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #43 October 10, 2006 Write my own book ?! i'll need truckloads full of Ritalin If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #44 October 10, 2006 QuoteMisquoting Jesus is indeed an excellent book and should be compulsory reading for all Fundamentalist Christians. Their response would probably be something like: Good christain scholars would never think there could be anything like a genuine error in the bible. To admit that he bible contains mistakes? Misquoting Jesus: QuoteMark 2 where ..what the great King David had done when he and his men were hungry, how they went into the temple "when Abiathar was the high priest"... 1 Sam. 21: 1-6 (testament passage that Jesus is citing) David did this not when Abiathar was the high priest, but when Abiathar's father Ahimelech was. Maybe when Mark says that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal was eaten (Mark 14:12; 15:25) and John says he died the day before it was eaten (John 19:14)- maybe that is a genuine difference. Or when Luke indicates in his account of Jesus's birth that Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth just over a month after they come to Bethlehem (Luke 2:39), whereas Matthew indicated they instead fled to Egypt (Matt. 2:19-22)--maybe that is a difference. Or when Paul says that after he converted on the way to Damascus he did not go to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before him (Gal. 1:16-17), whereas the book of Acts says that that was the first thing he did (Acts 9:26)--maybe that is a difference. There are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. Misquoting Jesus covered so much- my favorite was theologically motivated alterations of the text and the social worlds of the text. His book Truth and Fiction in the da vinci code- was a good read and I'm looking forward to his writing "decoding the secrets of a 1,700-year-old-text"...The Judas Gospel. SMileseustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #45 October 10, 2006 ...I have thought about exactly the same things as you and have doubted God for a very big part of my life but something inside me investigated and tested the posibilty that He might exist ..like i said there are so many things that never happened until i asked for God . He works for me .. if it does not work for you or anybody else then so be it ..i'm not trying to convert anyone here but i'm only sharing my experience and know i'm not alone I believe in God ,Christ and the Holy Spirit as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #46 October 10, 2006 Read Stranger in a Strange Land, Bill. I want to be a FosteriteYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #47 October 10, 2006 Our eyes can decieve us. The sun apears to rise every morning, but in fact its the Earth's rotation that creates this illusion. Time appears to pass equally for each person, but relativity tells us it is not so. Personal experience tells us that nothing can travel through solid walls , but quantum mechanics tells us somethings can. Personal experience is very clearly no way to discover deep truths about the universe. As far as "it works for me", I think you should think about the consequences of religios belief. Last year 2.8 million people died of Aids, many of them poor Africans who were encouraged by the Pope not to use condoms because or religious belief. Now how can you shrug your shoulders and say it works for me , fuck the consequences to the world? If catholocism is false, enormous amounts of people are dying for no reason. Doesn't that bother you? Im sure I dont need to detail the inquistition, the use of torture and the denial of various important scientific truths all by the Catholic church. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #48 October 10, 2006 Dig dig dig dig dig dig.... ahhhhhhhaaaa here's an excuse ! No wait that's not it ... ! Ok i'll look for another one hang on ..dig dig dig dig dig ...to infinity and beyond !! Phew ! ..................... ...The Bible was tested as 97 % unedited or unadjusted (search) No book as old as it carries that status and no book has been printed more throughout time There will also be a another book soon enough that explains why this and why that and counters all the theories authenticity ,ins and outs in "Misquoting Jesus" .. you'll see it's always like that The fact is the Prophecies within the Bible are real and are being fulfilled as i'm typing this and that's what matters , not who the priest was or his brother was not his father's brother but the brother of the priest etc..of course translations through 1000's of years would have had a effect on wording sentences...don't base your belief on something so variable...I'll say it again the Bible is a guide to the nature of your creator and his love that he has for all - people really think it's such a big thing to follow God but it's not i do almost all the things that i used to there's just more joy now. Anyway ..my interest now is looking at how these play off in the future - see this link for a few very interesting views : http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #49 October 10, 2006 When it comes to quantum mechanics/physics , i have come to one conclusion - The crust of the earth is very very very hard .....I don't agree with so many different churches and their customs and yes i feel sad because they have put their customs and their way of believing on a higher priority than their personal relationship with their creator and it's the people who suffer.If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #50 October 10, 2006 QuoteAnyway ..my interest now is looking at how these play off in the future - see this link for a few very interesting views : http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/ I read quite a lot of that and - what a load of tenuous nonsense. I could go through Lord of the Rings and find as many parallels to things happening in real life if i looked hard enough. This is where use of the bible becomes dangerous where people try and make out that it is something its not. Moral guidelines and to help people understand their being? Fine if you need a book to help you understand right and wrong. Predicting the future down to the last individual event?? I think not. Another poster who has "Studied the bible for many years " and "really knows the truth" unlike all us unbelievers says the bible predicts without a shadow of a doubt that the end of the civilised world as we know it is this year (or something like that). If he's right I apologise profusely!!!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites