Opening in a cloud?

[billvon 3,080]

>It is illegal in the US because it is a bad idea.

No, it's a bad idea in the US because we don't take the proper precautions. If the proper precautions are taken, then it's no more dangerous than any other sort of jump. The legality/illegality of it does not change its safety (or lack thereof) - but proper preparation does.

It's like anything else. I know 100% legal demos that have gone to shit, and resulted in serious injuries and fatalities of jumpers and spectators. I've known bandit demos that go without a hitch. Again, it's not the legality that makes it safe - it is the planning that goes into the jump, the experience of the people doing the jump, and the discipline to follow the plan that make the jump safe (or dangerous.)

>Citizens of other countries, while visiting the US, have lost body parts due
>to being impacted by a jumper in freefall.

I know several people who have lost body parts due to hitting someone in freefall in clear air, so I don't think avoiding clouds is a reliable way to avoid such injuries.

[happythoughts 0]

I do not agree with the reason of "I got away with it once, so I should be allowed to do it anytime."

If that is a reason for making decisions, then drunk driving should be ok. It is basically unsafe, but people have successfully not hit other cars on their 2 other binges.

I also don't agree with the idea of "Other people have been in freefall collisions outside of clouds, so it is somehow the same." It is not the same.

Otherwise, once again, drunk driving would be legal because sober people get in accidents.

Basically, if you are in a cloud with other people and lose track of them, the only thing that keeps one person from opening under another is blind chance.

I am against putting 10 people in a cloud and betting on chance that they don't kill each other. That is why it is a bad idea.

People are always concerned about separation, but here is a situation where you have no idea of the separation. I am astounded that anyone defends the idea.

[billvon 3,080]

>I am against putting 10 people in a cloud and betting on chance that
>they don't kill each other.

Then don't do it. It's pretty simple to avoid clouds.

[happythoughts 0]

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If the proper precautions are taken, then it's no more dangerous than any other sort of jump.

The discussion has been about intentionally jumping into a cloud.

What precautions are these?

Once you intentionally get into one, and you lose sight of the other people, everyone is in danger. I can think of no precaution.

What type of planning mitigates the danger of no seeing an unseen canopy opening below you? Or you being hit by the person who doesn't see you opening?

[brettski74 0]

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And... why? Did they just sit down one day and say, "Gee... today, let's make something illegal for no valid reason" ? Crazy

It is illegal in the US because it is a bad idea.
Just because it is legal in a country does not make it a good idea.

Citizens of other countries, while visiting the US, have lost body parts due to being impacted by a jumper in freefall.

Perhaps you should take a read of the APF regs on cloud jumping. There's a link to the information above.

It wasn't legal in Australia until a year or two ago, either. Now they have guidelines for managing the risk and dropzones that want to do it need to submit written procedures for managing the risk before being approved to conduct cloud-jumping operations.

That's not to say that it's entirely safe, but then again, neither is our entire sport.

[happythoughts 0]

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Perhaps you should take a read of the APF regs on cloud jumping. There's a link to the information above.

It wasn't legal in Australia until a year or two ago, either. Now they have guidelines for managing the risk and dropzones that want to do it need to submit written procedures for managing the risk before being approved to conduct cloud-jumping operations.

That's not to say that it's entirely safe, but then again, neither is our entire sport.

I went out to the APF site that was listed above and searched all the documents for "clouds" and could not find any reference.

Yesterday, I did a 10-way. At breakoff, we all turned and tracked. Not everyone goes in a straight line away from the formation. Regardless of any ground briefing, it is impossible that people will do that.

People cannot track away blindly without criss-crossing each other or turning a small amount. Anyone, who says that they can guarantee that, has never done it.

You have to be able to see others to ensure that you are not over them and vice-versa.

With 1 or 2 others, who don't track well, you may get away with it by luck. Not with 20. Ask someone with formation experience if they would ever track with their eyes closed (same thing) and dump.

People have said "Well... it's a risky sport, so what the heck?" That is not a reason to do whatever you wish.

"I'm not going to follow you out without any separation."
"That is foolish."
"It's a dangerous sport anyway."

[kallend 2,112]

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Well, I disagree simply because it's illegal. But I totaly agree that it can, and is, done perfectly safely, depending on a myriad of factors, many of which you described. Maybe we can change the FAR'someday.

It's illegal in your country only.

And... why? Did they just sit down one day and say, "Gee... today, let's make something illegal for no valid reason" ?

It is illegal in the US because it is a bad idea.
Just because it is legal in a country does not make it a good idea.

Citizens of other countries, while visiting the US, have lost body parts due to being impacted by a jumper in freefall.

When you dump in a cloud, you HOPE:
1- That no one opened under you and you are about to impact them while you are still in freefall.

2- That no one is behind you in freefall and about to hit you when you open.

3- That there is no aircraft under the cloud that you will impact.

It is bad to place your safety in the arms of Hope and Chance. The idea is to minimize the risks where we can.

It's sure dangerous doing it when no procedures are in place (like in the USA).

But how many accidents have occurred on account of jumping through a cloud in countries where it is legal and procedures for doing so have been developed?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,080]

>The discussion has been about intentionally jumping into a cloud.
>What precautions are these?

I listed a few of them before. Here are a few examples:

Let's say you're launching an experienced 16-way and you know you have an overcast. The overcast begins at 8000 feet and ends at 6000 feet; breakoff begins at 4500 feet. You drop one group per pass so there's no risk of someone else "getting under" the formation.

Let's say you're doing hop and pops over an overcast. Overcast is 3500-2500 feet, so you exit at 4000 and open at 2500. You leave 1/2 mile between each jumper; even if everything goes wrong there's no way for one jumper to get under another in time to be a factor.

Again, these precautions are usually not taken here, so I wouldn't try the above. In other countries those precautions ARE taken; as long as they were, I'd be willing to jump.

>What type of planning mitigates the danger of no seeing an
>unseen canopy opening below you?

1) Ensuring there IS no one below you or
2) Ensuring that at opening time you're in clear air.

[Liemberg 0]

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Parachutists must not open their canopies in cloud except in emergency.

If it's all the same with you guys, I'll threath reaching my opening altitude while still in freefall in the future as an emergency...

What are you supposed to do when you happen to be in a cloud at that time - swim out of it sideways?

To protect the young and sustainable: if you are not sure about what to do and what not to do when you get into a cloud while skydiving I urge you to discuss matters with your friendly local instructor. In general terms, avoiding clouds in the first place would be a good one to begin with but you might also benifit in the future from a broad knowledge - like "swimming wont work", should you find yourself in one sometime during your skydiving career...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[happythoughts 0]

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>What type of planning mitigates the danger of not seeing an
>unseen canopy opening below you?

1) Ensuring there IS no one below you or

Oh... so you just look for the unseen canopy. Well, an obvious solution. You merely look through the cloud that you can't see through.

That is the entire problem with clouds. Is anyone missing this ?

To mitigate the danger of an unseen canopy, we merely "ensure there is no one below you". And we do this how?

You are in a cloud with 15 people, you can't see the people, they track.
How do I "ensure" that the people, who I cannot see, are not directly below me? What briefing or planning solves this problem?

Jumping with one large group, on one pass (your example), through a cloud is dangerous at pull time. Always.

[billvon 3,080]

>To mitigate the danger of an unseen canopy, we merely
>"ensure there is no one below you". And we do this how?

If you are opening IN a cloud - one jumper per pass. I can guarantee there is no one beneath me if there is no one else in the air at all. This is not a good idea overall for the simple reason that you have to see to land.

If you are opening under a cloud - 1/2 mile separation for solos or one group per pass. There is no way anyone can get there to be underneath you in time.

>Jumping with one large group, on one pass (your example), through
>a cloud is dangerous at pull time. Always.

Then avoid it! You are responsible for your own safety. If you feel something is too dangerous to do - don't do it.

[happythoughts 0]

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>Jumping with one large group, on one pass (your example), through
>a cloud is dangerous at pull time. Always.

Then avoid it! You are responsible for your own safety. If you feel something is too dangerous to do - don't do it.

"Do whatever you want" isn't really a responsible guideline. As an organizer, less-experienced jumpers l look to you for guidance in safety decisions. They would want to know Your opinion.

You gave an opinion on the other scenarios, I was trying to get your opinion on the one that you proposed. That is the one that concerns me the most.

A lot of environmental factors can change on a 20-minute Otter ride to altitude. These factors make any plan invalid. Clouds and the cloud base can easily change in 3 minutes.

I believe that intentionally taking a large group (of any experience level) through a cloud is a bad idea. I want it clear that this is the advice that I would give.

I've also stated my reasons, so I am done with the thread.

[billvon 3,080]

>"Do whatever you want" isn't really a responsible guideline.

I agree. I didn't say that. What I said was "if you feel something is dangerous - don't do it." Here in the US, I don't intentionally jump through clouds for several reasons, and I don't recommend that anyone else do so. In other countries I have, under very different conditions. If other jumpers are in those countries, and they feel uncomfortable jumping through clouds for _any_ reason - I recommend they don't do it.

>A lot of environmental factors can change on a 20-minute Otter ride
>to altitude. These factors make any plan invalid. Clouds and the cloud
>base can easily change in 3 minutes.

That's very true! I recall one jump where, while I was spotting, we had a clear shot at the landing area. No clouds, just general haze. Just before the AFF started to climb out, we had some spotty clouds, but we could still see the landing area with no problem. By the time we opened, it had become solid (in less than 60 seconds.)

[strop45 0]

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I went out to the APF site that was listed above and searched all the documents for "clouds" and could not find any reference.

Try http://www.apf.asn.au/cloudjumping.aspx

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[kallend 2,112]

How many accidents have occurred on account of jumping through a cloud in countries where it is legal and procedures for doing so have been developed?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brettski74 0]

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I went out to the APF site that was listed above and searched all the documents for "clouds" and could not find any reference.

I posted a direct link to the page in one of my previous posts. You can also find it listed under the Services menu as Cloud Jumping Procedures

As for the rest, you seem to be misunderstanding my view. Read all of my preceeding posts in this thread. I am very definitely against opening in a cloud for precisely these reasons. You need to visually clear the air around you before you dump. If you're finding yourself in a cloud at break-off, then it's probably the result of poor planning. I've been in the plane planning and noticed clouds around break-off, so we called off the formation and jumped solo instead. You're right. I've never done a 10 way, but if I saw clouds at break-off, I'd be pulling myself off that formation.

Then there's the other possibility. What if I am guilty of poor planning and find myself inside a cloud at break-off, then I'll still turn and track. Sure I can't be sure what's ahead of me when I turn and track, but I know for sure that if I don't, I'll be opening in very close proximity to other objects. Needing to make this decision would be a bad situation for sure and one that I would hope to avoid through observing the conditions and appropriate planning, but if I ever find myself here, that's what I'll do. Once I'm done with my track, though, I'll wait for either clear air of the hard-deck before I dump.

About risks, my point was that there are risks associated with clouds, just as there are risks associated with jumping out of a plane. We take equipment with us and follow set procedures in order to mitigate the risks associated with jumping out of a plane. By the same token, we can mitigate the risks of jumping in clouds by things like not jumping a 10-way formation into 3000' of cumulus, not jumping wing-suits above clouds, etc.

[brettski74 0]

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Parachutists must not open their canopies in cloud except in emergency.

If it's all the same with you guys, I'll threath reaching my opening altitude while still in freefall in the future as an emergency... [Wink]

What are you supposed to do when you happen to be in a cloud at that time - swim out of it sideways?

Being at the hard deck would be an emergency, because you're risking imminent collision with a planet, and it's bigger than you.

Most people I know, myself included, plan to dump higher than the hard-deck, so they would have a little time to wait for clear air. If that's not you, and you always like to squeeze every last second of freefall out of the jump, then maybe opening altitude is an emergency situation for you.

The cloud jumping rules that I was required to read and accept before jumping in Australia required that I did not deploy my chute inside a cloud unless I was at the hard deck. We didn't have any clouds that day, but I still had to sign the form before they'd let me jump.

[happythoughts 0]

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How many accidents have occurred on account of jumping through a cloud in countries where it is legal and procedures for doing so have been developed?

There aren't enough statistics on skydiving to hardly find anything. I was trying to find a few unrelated incidents, that I know about, on the web tonight. No luck with them either.

[kallend 2,112]

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How many accidents have occurred on account of jumping through a cloud in countries where it is legal and procedures for doing so have been developed?

There aren't enough statistics on skydiving to hardly find anything. I was trying to find a few unrelated incidents, that I know about, on the web tonight. No luck with them either.

We have enough stats to know about no-pulls and landing accidents on highly loaded canopies, though!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.