bullying - disease - not the symptom

[happythoughts 0]

We seem to be addressing the symptom. We have a carrier that distributes a disease, yet people only want to address the symptoms.

From Columbine on, kids repeatedly state that the source of their violence is bullying. The outcome? They tolerate it for a couple of years and then snap. The violence that they distribute is at a different level - death.

Kids are bullied and abused for months on end, they complain, nothing is done about it. Then, they bring a knife to school to defend themselves and they are the problem.

If someone stands up and says, "You've hit me for the last time, I'm going to cut you up", who gets thrown out of school?

I liken it to a federal prison. The govt insists that you live in the scene of your abuse. The abuser may be punished, but they are there with you the next day. There is no escape, hence a valid sense of hopelessness.

I have read that vigilantism is the outgrowth of that powerlessness and lack of support from institutions.
I think that we are seeing its rise at a younger level.
Maybe we should address the disease, not the symptom.

[Michele 1]

I wonder if that's the case in all bullied kids. I was bullied - a lot! - and it never occurred to me to retaliate by bringing a knife/gun to school. I "complained" to various teachers, and only one did anything about it...and that was in my 11th grade year.

Do I have issues with bullies? Yep...but I handle them differently than deciding to shoot them and raid a school.

The issue is, imho, a really bad set of conflict resolution skills...not that I had great skills, but they were better than "grab a gun and go kill people at school...". They've gotten better over time, too, so now they're pretty effective ('cause yes, there are bullies in the grown-up world, too...).

So then my question becomes why does one kid who gets bullied react with a gun, and another does not? If that answer can be determined, and precursor signs identified, then there is a chance at effective intervention and prevention at the source.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[dorbie 0]

So that milkman was bullied 20 years ago by those amish girls?

No excuses for this crap. They are two distinct issues, bullying should not be tollerated but plenty of kids are bullied and don't go on a murderous rampage. There's was a lot more going on with those columbine murderers than just bullying.

[happythoughts 0]

I agree, it is a conflict resolution skill.
I know that we can ever make the conflict go away. Torment of the weaker seems to be a norm of teenage behavior.

I doubt that more than 10% of the population has gone through grade school without some sort of harrassment.

When I was in 7th grade, we were in P.E. with the seniors. You got pushed down on an asphalt basketball court, or just slugged, without regard.

Our retaliation occurred when ten 7th graders could pile on after a tackle and inflict an extra elbow or knee. (Short-lived glee.)

My point revolves around the weakest links.
We can't remove the problem, but if someone complains, let's make an effort. Let the bully know that there is a consequence, or at least an observer.

Let's give a little validation to the volcano before it erupts. Maybe take the pressure down a notch.

There are kids out there who are at the bottom emotionally and the institutions aren't providing solutions, so they arrive at their own dysfunctional one.

When I was a kid, the kids who worked at supermarkets carried razor box-cutters to work... and to school before. I am amazed that no one ever died.

[happythoughts 0]

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So that milkman was bullied 20 years ago by those amish girls?

No excuses for this crap. They are two distinct issues, bullying should not be tollerated but plenty of kids are bullied and don't go on a murderous rampage. There's was a lot more going on with those columbine murderers than just bullying.

The 32 yo milkman is a separate case.

I totally agree with you. There is no excuse for murder. I think that murder is the work of the mentally ill.

I think that there is a "critical mass" that is created when two emotionally-stressed and mentally ill kids get together. We need to come up with some plans for listening and acting to defuse those people and situations before they become deadly.

There are mentally ill people who do not commit murder.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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The issue is, imho, a really bad set of conflict resolution skills

This is exactly it. Kyles been bullied so much since the start of school this year that its affecting his school work. Weve tried going to the teachers as he has and get told "Kids will be kids and they are cruel" or "we didnt see it" I dont think Kyle will ever get to the gun stage but he sure has had a major personality change. I dont condone the school shootings as a way to pay back the bully. Although I must say , that some of the things my own son has been called made me wish I could go down myself and teach those kids a lesson that their parents never have.

Parents of bullys will not listen when you say they have a bully, and some parents think that its natural

Teachers dont want to make their job harder by being an advocate for one (at least from what Ive seen this year, I know thats not always true)

Kids who bully are much worse then adults who bully.

I wish my son could get to the conflict resolution stage, but the bullying never tapers, the teachers dont care, and he has had a complete personality change to where if it doesnt change Ill be dropping out of college to homeschool him. Last year he tested at a 5th to 7th grade level in everything but math. This year he is failing 2nd grade.....I wonder if Kyle had to go through this kind of bullying from now to highschool what would he be? I personally notice almost everything in my house so it doesnt have to go that far but the kids who snapped....how many YEARS were they treated that way? How many times did people ignore the cries for help saying "kids will be kids" ? It is not an excuse for murder, but the kids that shoot are not the only ones responsible.... the parents, the teachers, the bully and anyone else who held a position of authority to stop the actions yet let it go on for years... they are accountable as well.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Andy9o8 2]

You absolutely - especially if you're at a public school (but even if you're not) - do not have to tolerate your son being bullied at school.

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>> Weve tried going to the teachers as he has and get told "Kids will be kids and they are cruel" or "we didnt see it"

I've seen that so many times with schools, as we've raised our own kids, and as I've assisted clients with the same problem. You do not have to tolerate that kind of bullshit brush-off. Take it immediately to the next step, and see the principal. Document everything in letters to the principal, so that there's a written record. Demand immediate results, and don't let them fob off to you the responsibility for coming up with the solution. Bullying in school is an age-old problem; they're the professionals, let them be responsible for coming up with a solution. If you don't get immediate results from the principal, take it to the Superintendent. Eventually, I'd hope, if you go high enough up the food chain in the District, you'll find someone who is professional enough to realize that the days when schools can screw around with this shit and dismiss it as "kids will be kids" are long over, and that the District can really hurt itself if it does not remedy the problem immediately.

2 years ago, our then-middle school daughter was bullied by a kid, and we complained to the principal. Hoo-boy, did they ever act fast. The school notified the local police, the parents of course were brought in, and the kid was given some stern in-district discipline. The kid was also given a warning: there damn well better not be any retaliation against our daughter by any of the kid's buddies, and if there were, he would be expelled. There wasn't, and the problem ended right there. To their credit, the kid's parents took the proper attitude about this, and that may have helped. But it's a further lesson to you: make it clear you will not tolerate any post-complaint retaliation, not only by the bullies, but by their friends. This is important.

If you don't get immediate and satisfactory results after this, see a lawyer. It's amazing how just one, well-worded letter from a lawyer to the Superintendent (with an open cc: to the School Board and the school district's solicitor (attorney) ) will get results. Your attorney will make it clear that you can get a court restraining order against these kids. (In fact if the harassment is serious enough, you can do that now instead of waiting for later.) The District needs to be made to understand that they are at real risk of getting sued for providing an unsafe environment for your son; and you can get a court injunction to force the district to provide that, under close court supervision if need be. If I were your lawyer, I'd also warn them that if you have to drop out of college to home-school your son because of this, you'd be looking for stiff compensatory damages as a result. Trust me, the district's solicitor will advise them just how seriously this should be taken.

Continue what you're doing: being a proactive advocate for your son. Make it clear to these people that you will not just let it slide. Don't underestimate the power you can wield if you do it right. One way or the other, you'll get results.

[pirana 0]

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So that milkman was bullied 20 years ago by those amish girls?

No excuses for this crap. They are two distinct issues, bullying should not be tollerated but plenty of kids are bullied and don't go on a murderous rampage. There's was a lot more going on with those columbine murderers than just bullying.

Absolutely. My top three:

<> Easy access to guns.
<> Neglectful and/or abusive parents.
<> Complacent school staff that allow bullying.

To another poster's point about needing better conflict resolution skills. That is good, but dig deeper (you need to ask why until there are no answers). What is so conflicting? What is it they need to resolve and why? They have a problem with people not like them, . . . why? Need to dominate others, . . . why? Why, why, why? No politically correct or pat bullshit answers. Make people come clean and get to the bottom line.

Solutions:

<> Make it much tougher to get/own guns. I'm not anti-gun, but I am anti-putting-guns-in-the-hands-of-those-obviously-unfit-to-own-them.
<> Intervention at a very early age, as soon as anti-social behavior surfaces. If somebody doesn't step in by age 6, then at a minimum the child is probably looking at a lifetime of therapy and/or social dysfunction, at a maximum a very tough life. Help for the kids, and help and/or punishment for the parents.
<> The natural give and take that is part of growing up does not include bullying. That is apologetic crap doled out by ignorant and/or out of date and/or lazy administrators, as well as the parents of bullies. The horseplay and group dynamics that establish the informal pecking order do not require the kind of violent behavior or mental intimidation known as bullying. The use of any object (including thrown food), unprovoked attacks, blows that cause injuries, destruction of property, and so on and so forth; need to be treated as the crimes they are. Report them immediately, and if no action is taken, go over their heads. Be relentless.

I know, the policing of parenting is a very tough cookie. But if we are going to allow assholes to procreate, then somebody is going to have to watch over their shoulders.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

Beat me to the same point. Well said. I was chatting with someone else about this. Their tactic - treat it like the crime it is and make sure everyone involved clearly understands that's how you see it and that you will be relentless in having it treated that way. Sure to get their attention.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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Beat me to the same point. Well said. I was chatting with someone else about this. Their tactic - treat it like the crime it is and make sure everyone involved clearly understands that's how you see it and that you will be relentless in having it treated that way. Sure to get their attention.

agreed, 'zero tolerance' is an attitude that's abused for stupid stuff like clothing choices, PC compliance, etc. But having a strict protocol for certain "actions" is a good application of the same thing

school staff shouldn't be faulted for good intentions, just a piss poor ability to connect effects to cause

I blame Clinton

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TrophyHusband 0]

i was bullied relentlessly from grade school through high school. i complained to my teachers and nothing was done. through three schools i complained about the bullying and nothing was ever done. looking back, i see the problems. i was quite a bit smaller than the rest of the kids, so fighting back wasn't an option. i was also a huge smart-ass (shocking, i know). i now believe that teachers did nothing because they thought i deserved it. i did bring most of it on myself. i should have been punished for my actions and they should have been punished for theirs. instead, school officials allowed 2 wrongs to make a right. my parents only stepped in twice. once she talked to a principal and was told that boys will be boys and the other time they called the parents and a boy and his parents said that i was a smart-ass and deserved it. my point is that it is the adults who are in charge and they need to act like it. they need to take control of these situations when they see they and find a the cause or causes and deal with them. there will always be bullies and there will always be little shit smart-asses, but the adults in charge do not have to allow this unacceptable behavior to continue.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Butters 0]

The younger generation are not murdering their peers just because of being bullied. Many of the murders are random (not targeted individuals) committed by people with previous criminal behavior.

I want to know, who are their parents and where are their parents. (For all of the younger generation.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Andy9o8 2]

"Where are the parents?" is an over-used sound byte trying to shift all cause for adolescents' bad behavior on the parents. Now, I'm the father of two adolescents myself, so I take very seriously the effect of good parenting vs. bad parenting on the behavior of kids. But it can only go so far. Yes, bad parenting can cause bad behavior in kids. But not all bad behavior is caused by bad parenting. Sometimes kids are real behavior problems no matter what responsible parents try to do about it - it happens. To my life's experience, the simplistic slogan "Where are the parents?" is something said most often (not always) by people who haven't had kids of their own yet.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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The younger generation are not murdering their peers just because of being bullied. Many of the murders are random (not targeted individuals) committed by people with previous criminal behavior.

I want to know, who are their parents and where are their parents. (For all of the younger generation.)

there are likely a number of reasons that people go on a killing rampage and being bullied certainly is one of them. when a child is bullied for years on end with no relief, anger builds up. he/she is angry at his parents for not listening, angry at teachers and administators for not sopping the problem, and angry every one of his peers for either contributing to the problem or not stepping in and stopping the abuse. when a bullied child finally snaps, everyone is the enemy. he or she hates everyone and doesn't nessecarily care who get hurt. i never had thoughts of killing anybody except myself. i thought that if i killed myself that would show them. i could make everyone who tormented me feel guilty for the rest of their life. it would really make my parents and teachers feel bad for not stopping the torture. in the end i could never really get serious about taking my own life because i never wanted to die, but i did think of it as a wonderful revenge against the rest of the world. a child certainly could be driven to murder peers "just because of being bullied". far more children just take their own lives.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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he/she is angry at his parents for not listening,

I disagree with this part of your statment, its way to narrow-minded.... a good portion of parents get to their wits end because they cant make the bullying stop. They cant get the administration to make it stop and they have no power except to pull thier kid out of school. I personally have spent more time trying to make it stop then he has been being bullied, as a parent ive gone and talked to everyone but a lawyer.... has it stopped? No .... Im a parent, and my kid isnt angry at me.... my kid is angry at himself, and at the bullies.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[ROK 0]

Here's an opinion for you...

Maybe if we stop teaching our kids to be wussies, they'll be equipped to deal with the bullying. I'm not talking physical. No one should be subjected to continuous physical abuse.

My generation (I'm 43) was one of the first in a vastly changing new world where we can afford to give our kids all the things in the world that we never had. It's so easy to overlook teaching our children the value of the smallest things. I gave my son everything that I could, because it made me happy, and on the outside, him too. What it took me a while to realize is that it's hard to value what comes to you for free. We create a scenario where our children can't identify with happiness or self-worth.

Without self-worth we become numb. When numb, we will do many different things, just to feel something, anything, to feel differently.

Our children are no different than we are.

[TrophyHusband 0]

your child likely isn't angry with you because he sees you trying to do something. good for you. as far as being narrow minded, children and teenagers are narrow-minded. if a child doesn't think his parents are doing anything about the problem, he or she will interpret this as parents just don't care. this will make a child very angry at them. i know, i've been there. fortunately i got though it, as most people do. not all children have parents who are willing and able to take the actions that you are willing to take in order to keep your child from this torment.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Butters 0]

I stated that the younger generation is not murdering their peers just because of being bullied. It is the combination of being bullied and other issues.

It may be a common statement, "who are the parents and where are they at", but it must be asked. Do children raised by good parents do bad things. Yes. Do children raised by bad parents do good things. Yes. But parents can make the difference in raising a good or bad child and can make the difference in the childs environment in which they raise themselves.

A parent can try to switch environments (schools) and help the child join programs and activities with peers who will help build the child instead of break them.

I find it hard to feel bad for the person who kills their peers after being bullied and I find it hard to feel bad for the bully that is killed by their peers. I feel bad for the innocent victims. This is the world in which we live.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

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"Where are the parents?" is an over-used sound byte trying to shift all cause for adolescents' bad behavior on the parents. Now, I'm the father of two adolescents myself, so I take very seriously the effect of good parenting vs. bad parenting on the behavior of kids. But it can only go so far. Yes, bad parenting can cause bad behavior in kids. But not all bad behavior is caused by bad parenting. Sometimes kids are real behavior problems no matter what responsible parents try to do about it - it happens. To my life's experience, the simplistic slogan "Where are the parents?" is something said most often (not always) by people who haven't had kids of their own yet.

But the point I was making, or had made, is that bad adolescent behavior rarely begins in adolescence. Core personality traits are mostly formed by age 6 or 7. It's the dilemma of parenthood, especially for young parents. The little toddler's personality cement is firming up very quickly. We barely know what we're doing until it's done, then it's very difficult to undo.

When I see a kid acting out unhealthy behaviors, I ALWAYS look to the parents. Then when I meet them, it's ALMOST always confirmed. Peer groups largely determine how a teenager behaves, but what peer groups they are likely to land in is largely based on modeling their parent and what they learned before the age of 7.

So, maybe not all specific behaviors can be directly tied to the parents, but the kinds of choices a kid makes (such as peer group selection) do lead back to parent (or other caregiver) influence.

As far as no-matter-what-the-parents-do; if that is somehow implying that there is something they can do now for a misbehaving teen - HA! Too late.

The dozen or more years of development that led to some teens anti-social or otherwise unhealthy behavior just ain't gonna get undone because somebody decides to step in and point out their errant behavior.

It's similar to treating addiction. That behavior is engrained in personality traits and beliefs and principles that can only be dislodged by a truely traumatic event or years of therapy (which has what, maybe a 50-50 chance of being effective?).

As an aside, there is a reason Fulghums book was such a hit. It is very simple, very true, and recognized as such. A very few fundamentals that make the rest of life a piece of toast.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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It's so easy to overlook teaching our children the value of the smallest things. I gave my son everything that I could, because it made me happy, and on the outside, him too. What it took me a while to realize is that it's hard to value what comes to you for free. We create a scenario where our children can't identify with happiness or self-worth.

Without self-worth we become numb. When numb, we will do many different things, just to feel something, anything, to feel differently.

Our children are no different than we are.

Very good point. A basic human need - stimulation (or variety, or the spice of life). Kids need it too, and if in our busy lives we attempt to meet that need via material wants, trouble will follow. That stimulation/variety/spice needs to be emotional/mental; not material. If you got the cash and can afford all the toys, that's cool. But no amount of that can compensate for emotional stimualtion and growth.

Ever notice how many really smart people commit suicide? I've known a couple, and they were very smart, but emotionally stunted, and very lonely.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[ROK 0]

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It's so easy to overlook teaching our children the value of the smallest things. I gave my son everything that I could, because it made me happy, and on the outside, him too. What it took me a while to realize is that it's hard to value what comes to you for free. We create a scenario where our children can't identify with happiness or self-worth.

Without self-worth we become numb. When numb, we will do many different things, just to feel something, anything, to feel differently.

Our children are no different than we are.

Very good point. A basic human need - stimulation (or variety, or the spice of life). Kids need it too, and if in our busy lives we attempt to meet that need via material wants, trouble will follow. That stimulation/variety/spice needs to be emotional/mental; not material. If you got the cash and can afford all the toys, that's cool. But no amount of that can compensate for emotional stimualtion and growth.

Ever notice how many really smart people commit suicide? I've known a couple, and they were very smart, but emotionally stunted, and very lonely.

Yes, or how many really rich people are constantly depressed.

I wonder how many of the school shootings were commited by children who belonged to school clubs, or sports teams?

[Richards 0]

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"Kids will be kids and they are cruel"

Never an acceptable response

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"we didnt see it"

Doesn't it infuriate you when a teacher has the gall to look you in the eye and lie like that. How the hell can they not see this sort of thing. Maybe the occasional incedent but please don't tell me that all of these incedents go unnoticed.

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Kids who bully are much worse then adults who bully.

Yes but adults(teachers) who implicitly condone bullying by pretending not to see it are far worse

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the parents, the teachers, the bully and anyone else who held a position of authority to stop the actions yet let it go on for years... they are accountable as well.

[Richards 0]

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Yep...but I handle them differently than deciding to shoot them and raid a school.

The issue is, imho, a really bad set of conflict resolution skills...not that I had great skills, but they were better than

Unfortunately some are incapable of developing those skills on their own, and because they are weird, nobody wants to take the time to help them with that.

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So then my question becomes why does one kid who gets bullied react with a gun, and another does not? If that answer can be determined, and precursor signs identified, then there is a chance at effective intervention and prevention at the source.

Agreed but the first step is to get teachers to stop implicitly condoning it by pretending that they don't notice, when even the students know they do.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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The issue is, imho, a really bad set of conflict resolution skills...not that I had great skills, but they were better than "grab a gun and go kill people at school...". They've gotten better over time, too, so now they're pretty effective ('cause yes, there are bullies in the grown-up world, too...).

The issue is that when adults physically bully other adults, they get charged and convicted of assault and battery. If they do so verbally at work they get fired for creating a hostile work environment. A lot of child bullies are ignored, and most of those actually punished suffer the minor inconvience of school detention.

Adult victims who don't want to wait for their bullies to face those consequences can legally respond to force with force; up to and including deadly force in some states. Child victims end up with the same detention penalties as their attackers. Adult victims are free to change where they work. Chlid victims are mostly stuck where they work.

I'm not surprised that a few children snap.

[Richards 0]

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The issue is that when adults physically bully other adults, they get charged and convicted of assault and battery. If they do so verbally at work they get fired for creating a hostile work environment. A lot of child bullies are ignored, and most of those actually punished suffer the minor inconvience of school detention.

Staggering. If you are an adult you have a constitutional god given right to be protected against any and all indignities, but if you are a kid then you have to suck it up and deal with it.

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Child victims end up with the same detention penalties as their attackers.

Or worse. In the 5th grade I was being bullied horrendously by a kid who was supposed to be in the 7th grade and my parents had been calling the principle constantly about the abuse I faced and the fact that I was terrified of seeing the guy when I entered the school property. The school basically told my father that I was going to have to learn to handle myself. Since he had been on the Boxing Team in the Army he actually taught me a bit about protecting myself and told me that I would need to stand up if confronted or this guy was never going to stop. Anyway, one day this guy starts pushing me to the ground with all of his freinds watching and kept calling me a pussy and challenging me to fight him. I was scared but I let loose a straight right and down he went. In fairness i might not have landed it so cleanly if he had not been so overconfident. He ran away trying to hide the fact that he was crying.

The Vice-Principle said my options were suspension or the strap (yes we still had that when I was in school). He explained that despite all the physical abuse that this guy had dished out he had never punched me in the face so I was the bad guy. The bully's parents were threatenning to sue the school.

Fortunately I did get off the hook in the end but the school really wanted to make an example of me.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.